bruceagent

Yes, I would completely understand if the fact that it is a commercial website were the rationale for not allowing this cache. But if you read the response, it is not! The stated reason for not permitting it is because "its not the what geocaching is all about. Let the people find the locations in real life. There is a big difference than seeing them on the web."

First let me say that I appreciate all of the responses so far. I think both I and this thread have gotten a bit off topic. I understand that ultimately this is a Groundspeak game, and they have a right to make the rules. My orignial intent was to get other people's personal opinions on whether they thought the cache idea was one they would consider fair to publish. It was NOT to complain that the cache got dinged. I think a productive continuation of this conversation would be: 1) Do you personally think the site is too commercial? In your opinion, would a hint to the site be acceptable? Thanks.

Don't get me wrong. I like this site, and I think it is well done in many ways. I admire the local reviewer system. I understand that ultimately they decide what is "GOOD" and what isn't. I am willing to play by the rules. I guess it just boils down to interpretation, and a matter of opinion. And yes, if you don't like the rules here, there are other site to post a cache.

I completely understand this, and am willing to use their website by their rules. I am in no way trying to go around them.

I am not resisting removing the site - in fact I have removed all explicit links and have asked the appeals board to take another look. (It was the official corporate appeals board, NOT the local reviewer.) Again, I understand that the commercial part is tricky and am removing it. What really wrankled me was the fact that someone else, (representing a private company), was trying to push their views of what geocaching is on me. To quote: "Even without the ads its not the what geocaching is all about." It's a bit Big Brotherish that there is a corporation dictating, not whether a commercial site is okay to list, but how you should design your caches. PLEASE read their response carefully before responding!

I understand what most people are saying. The point I would like to make is that geocaching is a GAME, where ultimately the rules are dictated by how you want to play the game. That is one of the best aspects of it. If you want to follow other peoples tracks in the snow to find a cache, that is up to you. If you want to go out at midnight to be the FTF, that is up to you. If you want to collect as many TB's as you can, or none at all, that is up to you. There are as many ways of geocaching as there are people playing it. Yes, there is a "go out and get it" aspect to all caches. But many people enjoy solving puzzles at home as part of the experience. The intention of my cache was to allow either method - however you wanted to play the game. I do have a preference as to how I would choose to do it, but was in no way was dictating it to others. I do understand that the commercial part is tricky. I am considering submitting the cache without explicit reference to the site, but with enough of a clue that someone could find it.

As I mentioned, it is also a tour of the city and covers a lot of ground. It is an informal introduction to my favorite spots. It is pretty unnecessary to visit all the locations at once, but I think it might be useful to be made aware of them for later enjoyment. Would people feel differently if the tool used were google earth? I.e. you zoom in on a coordinate and identify maybe how many fans on a roof, or how many loading docks on a building etc?

I could post the listing without the website, but it involves about 9 locations spread over several miles of terrain. I point out personal favorite spots as a kind of guided tour of the city. It would be a real gas burner. It is really meant to be done using the tool. Remember the first time that you saw Google Earth? I thought this would be a nice introduction to another cool tool.

Hi, I'd like some feedback on a cache that Groundspeak is refusing to list. In a nutshell, it is a mystery cache where you need to collect information at various locations to derive the final coordinates. You can either visit the locations in person, OR make use of a new website (everyscape dot com). a) Yes, it is a commercial site in that they have ads, but it is actually less intrusive than say google. You don't need to sign up and would likely not even see the ads by doing this cache. You don't HAVE to use this site at all to do the cache. Here is my email: --- Hi, I created a new cache and have been advised by the regional admin to send you an email. Basically, it is a puzzle cache where you need to find out certain info from various locations (i.e. how many letters in a sign), then use it to calculate the final coordinates. There are two ways to get the info - one is to go to the actual intermediate coordinates. The other is the "virtually" visit these locations by using a new, free website. The website is basically similar to google earth, but instead of giving you an overhead view of locations, it gives you eye level 360 degree views from the street. The easiest way to understand is to look at the website: everyscape.com. (I am not affiliated in any way with it.) You do not need to pay anything or even sign up to use the site. Like google, they are making money by placing ads on their pages. Actually there are no traditional ads on the page - instead they are trying to get local businesses to buy "ads" which allows the user to "visit" inside the establishment (i.e. see what the inside of a restaurant looks like). In my mind it is similar to using google - a free public service to get geographic based information. I know there are many caches which use outside links to solve puzzles, whether it is wikipedia, google, or a users own website. And in fact you don't need to use this site at all, as you can just go and visit these coordinates in a traditional manner. I was thinking that as long as the information was publicly accessible it would be okay. (Also it's a pretty cool website!) --- Here is their response: --- Since the information can be gathered without the website we would prefer that you not use that site. The point of Geocaching is to get you outside not show you cool sites on the internet. The site you mention does sell ads and has a business locater. This make it a commercial site and not allowable. Even without the ads its not the what geocaching is all about. Let the people find the locations in real life. There is a big difference than seeing them on the web. --- I would reply that geocaching is a GAME, and that many if not most puzzle caches require users to spend time at the computer solving the puzzles before going out in the field. (Further I would say that many people like this part!) There is nothing stopping someone from going to all the sites in person - let them choose. As for the commercial aspect, this is the Groundspeak policy: "Commercial caches attempt to use the Geocaching.com web site cache reporting tool directly or indirectly (intentionally or non-intentionally) to solicit customers through a Geocaching.com listing. These are NOT permitted. Examples include for-profit locations that require an entrance fee, or locations that sell products or services. If the finder is required to go inside the business, interact with employees, and/or purchase a product or service, then the cache is presumed to be commercial." Take a look at the site. I think it is pretty harmless. There is no fee of money or information required, no interaction, no purchase required. Any comments would be appreciated. Thanks, -bruce