Tschakko

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments... In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable. I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this... Again in fairness to Groundspeak they are far more tolerant of posts critical of them and their operations than many companies would be. Try going into your local supermarket and telling every single customer that the prices are too high and they can get a better deal at a rival supermarket and I'll bet it won't be long before you are asked to leave. Well I am not telling their customers that they should go ti a rival supermarket. I am just telling them that they can get a better price at the same supermarket. They just have to order on a different website. And the website I named is an official reseller of G$. So where is there the problem naming those resellers?

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments... In this situation I have to say Groundspeak have an absolute right to decide what content they want on their forum. Freedom of speech is about the government censoring your expression rather than a private company restricting what conduct they consider acceptable. I understand that certain things may be censored such es improber words. But to delete posts just because you do not like the critics the writer is filing on you just is not the way to solve this...

Which in this case is: If you do not comply with our thinking then we will censor or delete your comments...

What are they supposed to say? It´s "above" their paygrade... Maybe we should pay another 10,-€ extra so they will get down to us to answer some questions that they do not like... Every country defines "Freedom of Speech" differently. In the US it´s obviously just some words on an old piece of paper thats kept in a museum. Nothing more to it...

If your VAT was set up as such, I doubt that there would be any controversy here. It IS set up very simple. They can pay the VAT completely to the UK authorities, no matter in which EU country the customer resides. And it is very simple to implement different VAT quotes in the buying process. Every IT employee can do so within a couple hours.

As it´s been said before it´s not about the tax itself. If it really is the way G$ says, that´s fine with everybody. Tax applys when it does and it is not just wasted over here but it does go into good projects as well. But so far G$ failed to proof they really do forward this to the EU. Furthermore they have had a week to proof it, which is very simple. Additionally they fail to charge the proper tax rates. In conclusion all this looks like a big lie to me. G$ just wants to get more money and doesn´t have the guts to say so. Therfore they chose to discriminate on europeans using some excuse and the play the three apes. At this point of the topic they have lost all my respect and certainly their credibility. I am sorry to say this, but they have had their chance to get everything straightened out. But as they choose to just do nothing I have to believe they do all this intentionally and that they are totally aware of what they are doing!

I will just keep telling everyone I meet if they want a PM they should get it to certain Resellers. Those do not charge "VAT" and furthermore they provide a better price. PLUS I am sure the resellers get a certain percentage of it. This way G$ gets even less than before. And I am sure everybody will get their punishment for discriminating others one day or the other. If G$ wants to be such an entity that does not care, so let it be. Sort of a Karma thing.

This is what I think it is. That is why the subhead of this topic is "Discrimination of Europeans?". I suppose most Americans won´t jump in on this as it might happen they would have to pay 2$ more on their PM too.

Be asured that there is forums out here that are frequented more thorougly. Even though there is not that many members discussing in here each of those speak for more than just one. I have been to several events lately and there have been many more upset about this policy that´s happening right now.

This does not make sense as you would be punishing the ones that keep the quality high standard. Furthermore they are charging the website services they provide. The caches belong to the cachers/customers. Without them they are nothing. And I have to say, that there is a high number of dumb caches in europe too. And they are becoming more...

As we do know by now G$ does not practice ethical and honest business the way we understand it.

Ok, thx for checking. I guess they choose to just keep everything messed up...

One more thing I wonder about is: As I heard they fixed the price back to $ on the EU countries that do not have the €. But they are still liable to charge the sales tax on those cachers. Will that be included in the 30$ too? Or are they able to calculate the VAT properly for them?

That is exactly how it works in America. Different cities, locations and business types have different tax rates. You find out what you owe when you pay at the checkout, it is not included in the menu, room rates, or advertised prices. We also have no idea if the person actually passes it on. The tax man checks that. I still think 90% of this is that people are mad they have to pay tax. Groundspeak is supposed to collect that tax, and they are choosing to pay that now. If you have issues with that talk to the EU or your local tax people. I guess you did not get it right. It´s not about the tax. And if we say VAT it´s actually a sales tax. It´s about Groundspeak not calculating it right. In Germany it´s 19% but they cover 33%. Plus there is still missing the proof that they forward it to the German state or whatever EU country they are supposed to forward it to. As we do not get the VAT number from G$, I filed a request at German Customs asking if G$ is liable to collect and forward this sales tax or not and furthermore if they really do so. Might take a few days to get a reply, but I just want to know the truth here. If they have to collect it, so let it be, but callculated correctly!

Ok, as I see it, there is no way Groundspeak is gonna get out of this without loosing a large part of credibility. 1. If they do have a VAT number, then they loose because of the horrible communication they do. Furthermore due to the lack of will to calculate it properly on europeans. If they wanted to do it right they could. We know this as they do charge a proper VAT rate on citizens of Washington State. 2. There is no VAT number. In this case they lied. Still it would be better to confess this as it will be found out. If it´s gonna be discovered by nonofficials then the shame would be even greater. So Groundspeak these are the proper actions to take: - Confess there is no VAT number and you just want more money. This is fine, but do so worldwide and with all members. No matter if recurring or not. or - Show your VAT number and charge the proper VAT rate to the customers (As you do with the cachers from Washington State). Give them the option to pay in € or $ (The argument of saving on bankfees is just silly and you are aware of this!).

And I guess that is the problem. The can not post their VAT number because there is none...

The day in the US is almost over and still we did not see the VAT number. It´s been plenty of time to "investigate" that it´s mandatory to provide it publicly. So, where is the answers from Groundspeak?

There is a lot of social security going on here in Europe. Insurances cost money. Be asured it´s public what they charge for. Not always the best decisions, but I guess no country can say so. Anyways, this is not the question in this thread. So far everyone here has said they would pay the VAT. But only the VAT! If they want more money on top of that, they should do so on a worldwide basis, not just on the back of Europeans!

Well if one thing is to be said true, then that they are not playing by the rules in one way or the other. We know they do have to charge EU VAT So there is two posibilities: 1. They do, then they failed to do it correctly. 2. They do not, then they claim sth in the name of the EU, which is not legal either.

It does not do any harm filing a report. If they have ways to enforce it they will do so. If not, then not. Does it do any harm to file reports with both? US and UK/EU.

VAT - Yes, if it applies. I am still missing proof on this one through their registration number. Exchange Rates - No, as it is not their problem. They do not have to cover us in €. Paypal and CreditCards do give us a reasonable exchange rate, Groundspeak does not!

Believe me, there is a lot they can do. The US is not a country without jurisdiction. If the do charge VAT tp Europeans in the name of the EU and do not forward it to the EU, then the EU taxmen can pull them to court within the US. There is several agreements between the US and EU, I am sure there is ways to enforce EU laws within the US if they apply.

You still did not get it.

I couldn't care less. I'm buying goods for thousands of dollars from the US every year for another hobby and I'm used to the price differences. So what? Had to fuel up up my 4x4 yesterday, after filling both tanks it was close to 300$ - so I refuse to cry about paying 30€ per year. Well, congratualations. You are a rich person. But u certainly did not get what all this discussion is all about. If youre ok with it to be fooled, that´s fine with me.

Ok, I have been warned to post links to other websites. Sorry, I shall not do so again. Protest against censorship is also against the rules. Thx for the information. I shall not do so again. Yet I think it will be allowed to mention the Geocoin Discussion Forums. I welcome you to take a look at the list of official resellers of Groundspeak pinned in that forum. Please go to that thread as it might be off topic in here. As far as I am concerned I am out of this discussion. I can´t stand mistreatment and discrimination. It´s been proven to me, that this pricehike has got nothing to do with VAT reasons.