Super Fly

The morning that I pulled the cache and tossed it I spoke with two different cachers from around the area, I told them both that I had pulled the cache and tossed it out. After this thread got started I spoke with them again either sunday or monday both time I stated how I wished I had not tossed out the cache because I would love to rub this in their face now. However I could not go back and retrieve the cache, so now I am stuck trying to defend myself but - at the same time not to bothered by the disbelief either. I must admit that given the same set of circumstanses I probably would wonder myself if the cache ever realy existed. All I can say is that if an attempt was made before hand by local reviewers to go out and verify the cache I would have obliged. If Groundspeak had asked to see a photo of the cache, I would have obliged. Live and learn I guess, I just wish more comunication was made to me by all the parties involved in this cache. It was just such a blindside that I was upset and being upset at the situation did not help my judgement especialy stewing on the fact that it was archived while working friday night I could not wait to get out there and yank the cache. I kind of had this bad attitude about the whole caching business at the time, which did come back to bite me. I should have taken a step back and waited a few days before making a hasty decision. In fact I would love to show all of you the cache (it was pretty cool and turned out great) but thats just my rushing headlong into something without thinking ahead.

From owner's 11/5/2009 log: He does seem to have a hard time keeping his story straight. Hmmmm. The new home for the cache that I was refering to was the trash and thats exactly where it went. I was on your side, my friend, but now I have to call "bull". You're losing us. If I had known the future and seen that this would come up in the forums I would have taken steps to protect the cache for later proof. However at the time a was furious about this and knew that I would not sway Groundspeak or any of the reviewers decision so I pitched it out of discust for the situation.. Also if a picture had been asked for before hand or a reviewer had asked to be shown the cache I would shown them. Little did I know that this would even make the forums. Most local cachers know me and know that I am not out to get anyone with a false cache. The DNF's on the cache page are made by some of my closest caching friends. I have even gone out to see If it is found while cachers are in the process of looking so that I could congradulate them on the find. As I said before, if you dont beleive me, I dont realy care any more, even a picture would have been picked apart and said to be a fake. The fact that someone expected me to take a picture at 2am, and thinks that they could see anything from a dark picture shows me that there is not much that I can do anymore. However the fact remains that I can build another one but I beleive that since everyone knows what to look for now - it would not be much of a challenge but more of a P&G cache. Taking a mold of an object is quite a simple task and I am not sure where the doubt comes in as to whether or not it was done. I had lost my job prior to this and used the time to complete this cache. Also I was not aware that I would need a film crew to document this cache for future support of the placement of this cache. How many of you all take pictures of your caches to prove that they are there? All along I had expected this cache to have been found and thats why I made checks to see if it had fallen off whenever the question arose to its still being there. I have a friend (at least one) that found your mega ammo box. I do know what you are capable of, and I do also have the experience to know that the cache in question is certainly possible, and an excellent idea (and in an excellent location ,BTW) I'm just not believing that you went out at 2 am, picked the cache up, and trashed it after spending 1 1/2 years on it. The PTB may not have requested a picture, but unless you are stubborn to a fault, you would have supplied one, if such a photo existed. Sorry... you had me... but you've lost me, and apparently quite a few others. I would still like to know what intel the reviewers had that we do not, though. Simply put after trying to argue with Groundspeak about a previous issue, and not getting anywhere I figured it was a dead issue. I do admit to blindly tossing something that would be a huge help to prove that it was there, this is my fault. Rest assured that this type of mistake will not happen in the future. Also the 1.5 years that I have stated is not a continual effort but mearly the length of time from idea to finished product, with a few broken prototypes along the way.

If Groundspeak has a way of tracking when people log on, or the searches that people do in the search bar, they will see that I did a search for the cache name and the cache GC number before tossing it out, no discussions started either in the michigan forums or the Groundspeak forums. I figured that no one cared if the cache was archived or not, so it got tossed. To me this cache was not that important to keep around to prove that it was real, to me it was just another archived cache not worth keeping because it would not fit anywhere else. If an attempt was made before hand to verify the placement of this cache, or this thread had been started already, I would have obliged any reviewer and suppied a picture or a trip to the location, or simply kept it around for proof of placement. Since none of the above happened and the ruling to have the cache archived was supported by Groundspeak I assumed that this was a done deal. I was bitter about the ruling - went and yanked it out - and tossed it. Call it a hasty decision, yes, but hindsite is always 20/20. The fact remains that I did not try to deceive anyone. I listed the cache as unknown- if I listed it as a regular size based in the dimensions then cachers would assume it could fit a travel bug, but when found they would see that the small ziplock was not big enough for even a geocoin to fit. If I listed it as a micro, cachers would be looking for a micro when in fact the size of the camoflaged portin was larger than a micro. Thus the decision to list it as an unknown. The difficulty and terrain were also accuratly listed so that cachers knew before hand that they were in for a challenging find. The fact that no hint was posted was a decision made after thinking about what kind of a hint could I use to not give the cache completely away -- no hint would help without giving the cache away. Earlier in the spring of this year I was contacted by a cacher from washington state asking me what the cache was so that they could duplicate it, my responce was that I would be tight lipped about the cache except to tell them that it was custom built for the location and that it was a year and a half build to get it done. If this was just a last minute story made up by me then we should get that cacher involved and ask them if they remember the e-mails exchanged at that time. Nothing I did here was done with the intention of cachers not to find the cache.

From owner's 11/5/2009 log: He does seem to have a hard time keeping his story straight. Hmmmm. The new home for the cache that I was refering to was the trash and thats exactly where it went. I was on your side, my friend, but now I have to call "bull". You're losing us. If I had known the future and seen that this would come up in the forums I would have taken steps to protect the cache for later proof. However at the time a was furious about this and knew that I would not sway Groundspeak or any of the reviewers decision so I pitched it out of discust for the situation.. Also if a picture had been asked for before hand or a reviewer had asked to be shown the cache I would shown them. Little did I know that this would even make the forums. Most local cachers know me and know that I am not out to get anyone with a false cache. The DNF's on the cache page are made by some of my closest caching friends. I have even gone out to see If it is found while cachers are in the process of looking so that I could congradulate them on the find. As I said before, if you dont beleive me, I dont realy care any more, even a picture would have been picked apart and said to be a fake. The fact that someone expected me to take a picture at 2am, and thinks that they could see anything from a dark picture shows me that there is not much that I can do anymore. However the fact remains that I can build another one but I beleive that since everyone knows what to look for now - it would not be much of a challenge but more of a P&G cache. Taking a mold of an object is quite a simple task and I am not sure where the doubt comes in as to whether or not it was done. I had lost my job prior to this and used the time to complete this cache. Also I was not aware that I would need a film crew to document this cache for future support of the placement of this cache. How many of you all take pictures of your caches to prove that they are there? All along I had expected this cache to have been found and thats why I made checks to see if it had fallen off whenever the question arose to its still being there.

Here must be an example of me ripping off another cache

From owner's 11/5/2009 log: He does seem to have a hard time keeping his story straight. Hmmmm. The new home for the cache that I was refering to was the trash and thats exactly where it went.

I try to keep my mouth shut and my fingers from typing but a picture or the cache ups'ed or fedex'ed to someone for a visual inspection would still not change anyones mind. The fact remains that the reviewers have made statements about me that are wrong and they just dont like me. I had a cache submitted for review - I waited 4 days before I sent a message out asking why other caches were being approved and yet nothing was done with mine. I got no responce except for a note placed on the cache page. August 16 by -Tiki- (0 found) Greetings, I apologize for the delay in the publication of this cache listing. At this time, there is another listing that is blocking this cache from being published. I have contacted the other owner and I am awaiting their response. As soon as I have more information, I will pass that along to you or publish your cache accordingly. Thank you for placing a cache, -Tiki- Geocaching.com - Volunteer Reviewer ReviewerTiki@gmail.com Please reference the cache name, or GC number when emailing. [view this log] August 12 by Super Fly (2100 found) Original Cache Location:N 42° 58.930 W 085° 50.100 [view/edit logs/images] [upload an image for this log] Cache submitted aug 12 and then finaly aug 16 after I had to ask why mine was not being looked at while others were being approved this is what I got. Once again pushed asside and forgetten about.....or should I say Ignored. There are other cachers out there that know that my words here are true, I hope some of them will step foreward and let everyone else know different things that have been said against me and the backroom dealings that happen here in west michigan against me to make me look bad to Groundspeak.

Here is an interesting note. In Ohio at a megea event called geobash one of the our michigan reviewers had these words to say........ "Super Fly has never placed an original cache in his life, all of his caches are a rip off of someone elses cache" To that I say first show me a large wooden ammo box built to scale that was built before mine, if there is one I was never aware of it. Second then I must be a master at solving everyone elses puzzle to get my ideas from them. Without naming names here this is the reason that my cache was archived, the reviewers in michigan do not like me - they dont like my puzzles - they dont like my hides. So any chance they can get to shut one of my caches down or to upset me in any way they will jump at. Our reviewers are supposed to be unbiased in there decisions, yet here in west michigan that is not the case. If the same guide lines were followed for every cache then I shouldnt be able to find any caches older than 2 years without a find. Yet there are at least 50 caches around the world that have been out longer than mine, have DNF's on them and yet they stay on the active list. Quite obviously the same action should be taken for these other caches that was taken for my cache. Its about time that people open their eyes and see's that these reviewers of caches are not above the rules and that they too should be accountable for their actions and words used towards others.

Good points, jhauser42. The cache owner lives around five miles from the cache. October 4th was on a Sunday, so quick maintenance would be possible. As to the height of the river on that date, I have no idea, because I was not in Grand Rapids at the time, but I do know that in the spring it can be six or seven feet higher in many areas than its normal level. Exactly! An inch or two wouldn't have made muc difference to SF, I believe he's quite adventurous and used to adverse conditions....I may be mistaken though! Yes, but an inch or two of rain (4 inches in a week) would not raise the river an inch or two, but substantially more when you consider that all of the feeder streams and runoff would be pouring into it. It would probably raise it quite a bit and cause the current to be faster. That is certainly what happens here to rivers, streams, etc. that are only a couple of inches deep. Again, as I do not KNOW what the conditions were or how the CO accesses this point I do not have any way to make a decision as to what happened. It just strikes me wrong that such a high terrain cache could be checked on that quickly. Is it possible? Of course. However, I do not find it likely. Since I placed the cache and know where it is I can do the five minute drive over to the location and without even getting wet, see the cache from the bank of the river. Since emails come into my iPhone with a tone alerting me to new emails I had the info on the temporary hold only seconds after recieving the email. Also the communications that I posted were the only ones that took place. Soon after posting them I did recieve one other email (which was requested to not be made public) and I am abiding by this request. Believe me-Dont believe me, I dont care any more. Like me-Dont like me, I dont care any more. The fact is that I will not go through the money or the time to place another cache, since it will be quite some time before I loose this sour taste in my mouth from this incedent. I doubt that if I dont hide any more caches that the community will be effected at all, In a few months they wont even remember who I was. Any other questions??? Yes. You just said that you checked the cache placement from a distance. I have no problem with that. If you placed it you probably can see it fairly easily. However, in your maintenance log you said the log was blank and dry. How, from a distance, can you tell if the log is blank or dry? I didnt say that is what I did that day I simply said that is what I can do to check and see if the cache is still there. Climbing over the rail and reaching down to retrieve the cache is a simple job to check the logbook.

That's a shame, because according to this thread and the cache logs there were dozens who would have rallied behind you to point out the errors in the way that this situation was handled. All they needed was a chance to see your masterpiece in place and take some pics, and maybe even sign the log! Now all we have is he said she said. There are already dozens who have seen it - they just didnt know they were looking at it. I have noticed in the last few years a new breed of cacher, one who looks lightly and cries heavily. They expect to find a cache within a few minutes of ariving to a cache location and then without even letting the gps settle down they are off to get on their computer and send out the complaints (never to the cache owner but to the reviewer who approved the cache) I myself have looked for hours for certain caches while these same cachers come- look for a few minutes- get bored- and leave, while I remain until I can make the find, then these same cachers will immediately send me an email with the questions, what was it, where was it, how big was it, what color was it, how did you find it, do you think you can help me if I cant find it. These are the same people who always make a huge deal about "how easy it was" when they do find a cache (usualy with a bunch of help) also do the most complaining when they cant find the cache. I think this sport needs to take a step back into what I call old school caching (where a family goes ouyt to find some caches, enjoy their time together, and if a cache comes up that they cannot find, they simply move on to the next one with a smile on their face because it not always about the find but sometimes its more about the location. I have yet to hear anyone mention the location that I chose for Jiendo ( the cool old railroad bridge now bike path ) only this crazy debate about whether or not they think there was really a cache hidden. I for one would rather go out and find some more caches rather than sit here typing away. 60 degrees and sunny in november in michigan lets go caching!! As far as I am concerned this issue is over for me. Groundspeak has spoken and since this is their game we all need to play by their rules (even if it means we need to swallow our pride and move on) Not everyone is perfect we all make mistakes. Mistakes are made even by the ones in charge.

That's a shame, because according to this thread and the cache logs there were dozens who would have rallied behind you to point out the errors in the way that this situation was handled. All they needed was a chance to see your masterpiece in place and take some pics, and maybe even sign the log! Now all we have is he said she said. Maybe its hard for anyone to understand- but after being called a liar I was ready to go pull all of my caches out that night not just the one in question. Also if you read the nomax note it says archive after picking up any geo litter. I did the reverse I picked up my cache after they archived it. I dont want to be acused of littering on top of lying.

Would you give Groundspeak permission to post all the email exchanges? Not a problem since I did it already there are no more emails to post so I say bring it on.

1) The cache only stuck out about 1/4 inch. Let me ask you could you spot your child in a crowd?? How about your wife or husband?? After taking so long to build this cache and having to place it on an exact brick that the mold was taken from it is not hard for me to spot my own work from the short distance away that the bank is. 2) Do your research there are many types of "poster putty" available. You dont need to just referance the cheep ones sold at standard office supply stores. Do you think after all that work that I would rely on something that might let loose and destroy all of my hard work???

Jiendo was pulled out 2 am saturday 11/7/09

Good points, jhauser42. The cache owner lives around five miles from the cache. October 4th was on a Sunday, so quick maintenance would be possible. As to the height of the river on that date, I have no idea, because I was not in Grand Rapids at the time, but I do know that in the spring it can be six or seven feet higher in many areas than its normal level. Exactly! An inch or two wouldn't have made muc difference to SF, I believe he's quite adventurous and used to adverse conditions....I may be mistaken though! Yes, but an inch or two of rain (4 inches in a week) would not raise the river an inch or two, but substantially more when you consider that all of the feeder streams and runoff would be pouring into it. It would probably raise it quite a bit and cause the current to be faster. That is certainly what happens here to rivers, streams, etc. that are only a couple of inches deep. Again, as I do not KNOW what the conditions were or how the CO accesses this point I do not have any way to make a decision as to what happened. It just strikes me wrong that such a high terrain cache could be checked on that quickly. Is it possible? Of course. However, I do not find it likely. Since I placed the cache and know where it is I can do the five minute drive over to the location and without even getting wet, see the cache from the bank of the river. Since emails come into my iPhone with a tone alerting me to new emails I had the info on the temporary hold only seconds after recieving the email. Also the communications that I posted were the only ones that took place. Soon after posting them I did recieve one other email (which was requested to not be made public) and I am abiding by this request. Believe me-Dont believe me, I dont care any more. Like me-Dont like me, I dont care any more. The fact is that I will not go through the money or the time to place another cache, since it will be quite some time before I loose this sour taste in my mouth from this incedent. I doubt that if I dont hide any more caches that the community will be effected at all, In a few months they wont even remember who I was. Any other questions??? Here's one: Why didn't you simply take a picture of the cache container? I kept tight lipped about this cache for two years. The cache was called Jiendo for a reason it was to be my last great hide and Jiendo means "the end". After getting an email about the archival of the cache I broke down and revealed the cache to Groundspeak. Not I am being called a liar by everyone else who insists on a picture --very insulting. What will be next?? Will everyone need to physicaly see/touch it to believe then that it was not a photoshopped picture. I have also built an ammo box at ten times the scale of a normal ammo box and people drove halfway across the country to see it because they did not believe the picture. Pictures dont mean anything and they certainly wont satisfy everyone. I am done trying to prove that I actualy had a cache container there. If however Groundspeak had asked for a pic I would have provided one for them.

Good points, jhauser42. The cache owner lives around five miles from the cache. October 4th was on a Sunday, so quick maintenance would be possible. As to the height of the river on that date, I have no idea, because I was not in Grand Rapids at the time, but I do know that in the spring it can be six or seven feet higher in many areas than its normal level. Exactly! An inch or two wouldn't have made muc difference to SF, I believe he's quite adventurous and used to adverse conditions....I may be mistaken though! Yes, but an inch or two of rain (4 inches in a week) would not raise the river an inch or two, but substantially more when you consider that all of the feeder streams and runoff would be pouring into it. It would probably raise it quite a bit and cause the current to be faster. That is certainly what happens here to rivers, streams, etc. that are only a couple of inches deep. Again, as I do not KNOW what the conditions were or how the CO accesses this point I do not have any way to make a decision as to what happened. It just strikes me wrong that such a high terrain cache could be checked on that quickly. Is it possible? Of course. However, I do not find it likely. Since I placed the cache and know where it is I can do the five minute drive over to the location and without even getting wet, see the cache from the bank of the river. Since emails come into my iPhone with a tone alerting me to new emails I had the info on the temporary hold only seconds after recieving the email. Also the communications that I posted were the only ones that took place. Soon after posting them I did recieve one other email (which was requested to not be made public) and I am abiding by this request. Believe me-Dont believe me, I dont care any more. Like me-Dont like me, I dont care any more. The fact is that I will not go through the money or the time to place another cache, since it will be quite some time before I loose this sour taste in my mouth from this incedent. I doubt that if I dont hide any more caches that the community will be effected at all, In a few months they wont even remember who I was. Any other questions???

Once again here is the email---Just in case you missed it the first time. Flag this messageGC171MHSaturday, November 7, 2009 5:24 AMFrom: "Super Man" <supermansiphone@yahoo.com>View contact detailsTo: appeals@geocaching.comBcc: supermansiphone@yahoo.comTo whom at may concern, I have a cache GC171MH that took me over a year and a half to build. The container is all custom done and built for this very spot. I recieved an email alerting me to the fact that Nomex placed it on temporary hold on oct 4, since this location is close to home I went and checked it out. The cache container was still in the same location as I had placed it and was holding up in great shape. On the same day I posted a note showing that I had checked the cache and all was well. On november 5 Nomex archived the cache with no DNF's or logs stating that anyone had even attempted to find the cache. The cache location can be hard to access depending on how deep the water is at the time, this is stated in the cache description. I feel that this cache has been unjustly archived and would like it reinstated as an active cache. I know that around the world there are other caches placed that have not been found for more than double the length of time that my cache not been found. I did not know that there was a time limit that a cache had to be found in to remain in the active caches. I have checked the cache out whenever there is a question as to whethere or not it is still there. Do I need to just show people the cache?? Then it would not be considered a geocache but just a container with a peice of paper to sign. I think if you look at the cache page you will agree that all who have posted notes are urging to cache to be reinstated and left alone. There have been no notes loged agreeing with the archiving of this cache. Please reinstate my cache and have it left alone, I am an active cacher and will archive it on my own when there is a problem or it gets destroyed. Nomex has taken the fun and challenge out of this cache for everyone involved. Thank you for your time - Scott Not the detailsTo: appeals@geocaching. Yes I took it to a level above reviewers. P.S. what is the GC# on that other cache without finds??

I will never place another cache for this sport. The cache was is plain view for two years and Groundspeak with their mighty wisdom tells me that I am a liar and that I never placed a cache. P.S. DeRock I never recieved one email from a cacher complaining to me about the cache. Not sure why this one would be considered so sensitivethat we all (reviewers and Groundspeak) feel the need to chat about it behind my back. The reviewers and I live close enough to each other that they could have said show me a cache at this location and the case is closed. What did happen here is a lot of backroom dealings again without the cache owner being made aware of anything until the notes are postred on the cache page. Let me make this very clear---No communications were made about this cache to me, no questions by reviewers, the only thing I ever saw was the same thing everyone else saw--i.e. the posted notes by nomax on the cache page. I'll never even get an apology from anyone for trashing not only me but a great (very findable) cache. As the name of the cache translates into english "THE END"

Here was my final responce: The cache was a mold of one of the bricks supporting the bridge with a logbook in a small jewelry ziplock bag molded into the back. It was stuck to the existing brick with poster putty and coated with stonecreations paint. The picture in the cache page shows the bricks supporting the bridge. Yes there was a cache there and yes it took forever to get the mold thin enough to not break with the logbook behind it. I spent so much time on this cache only to have Groundspeak tell me that there was no cache placed - that's very disappointing, almost bullyish behaviour on groundspeaks part.

Here is the second responce I got: Super Fly, Hello again. After some investigation, Groundspeak does believe that there is no cache container to be found at all. This cache listing will remain archived and locked. Obviously, your "fun" of listing a cache that is not really there at all is not the way the game of geocaching is supposed to go. Any further antics of this sort from you - under ANY username - will result in a long term loss of site privileges. Regards, ----- Jenn Seva Groundspeak, Inc. The Language of Location http://www.Groundspeak.com

Here is what I got back first: Hello Super Fly. RE: GC171MH Super Fly #30 "Jiendo" http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_detai...1b-2ffbf8ec02bc I have just been asked to look into this cache. I have not yet had time to do my investigation. I have noticed that the cache page is being used as a forum for discussion in the meantime, and you know of course that this is not a good use of cache pages. We have an actual forum for forum discussions. J I have locked the cache page – this is just a TEMPORARY measure to give me some time to look into it. Thank you for your patience. I’ll unlock it soon. --------------------------- Jenn Seva jenn@Groundspeak.com P 206.302.7721 F 206.374.8161 Groundspeak - The Language of Location www.geocaching.com www.Waymarking.com www.Wherigo.com

This is the email that I sent out to appeal: To whom at may concern, I have a cache GC171MH that took me over a year and a half to build. The container is all custom done and built for this very spot. I recieved an email alerting me to the fact that Nomex placed it on temporary hold on oct 4, since this location is close to home I went and checked it out. The cache container was still in the same location as I had placed it and was holding up in great shape. On the same day I posted a note showing that I had checked the cache and all was well. On november 5 Nomex archived the cache with no DNF's or logs stating that anyone had even attempted to find the cache. The cache location can be hard to access depending on how deep the water is at the time, this is stated in the cache description. I feel that this cache has been unjustly archived and would like it reinstated as an active cache. I know that around the world there are other caches placed that have not been found for more than double the length of time that my cache not been found. I did not know that there was a time limit that a cache had to be found in to remain in the active caches. I have checked the cache out whenever there is a question as to whethere or not it is still there. Do I need to just show people the cache?? Then it would not be considered a geocache but just a container with a peice of paper to sign. I think if you look at the cache page you will agree that all who have posted notes are urging to cache to be reinstated and left alone. There have been no notes loged agreeing with the archiving of this cache. Please reinstate my cache and have it left alone, I am an active cacher and will archive it on my own when there is a problem or it gets destroyed. Nomex has taken the fun and challenge out of this cache for everyone involved. Thank you for your time - Scott

MMMMMMMMM POP is that an explosion I just heard???? If you dont want email then stop sending email to me!!!! BTW if johngie put a cache on your front porch I could still beat you too it, you know that superman is faster than a speeding bullit.

My best FTF experiance is now any cache that I beat WHO-DEY to. BTW did it ever occur to you when you went to find your precious FTF in the parking lot of Gentex-----I WORK AT GENTEX OF COURSE I WILL BEAT YOU THERE. Stop your whining and start caching! well...you will enjoy them all because between you and the other four men in the area, my son will never have a FTF. Simply, I do not try any longer for FTF. Nor am I putting any prize in my own caches for a FTF any longer. Why pad the same mens pockets? You four can beat eachother up for the FTF's. think about it..You were at 180 ftf's in May...now you are at 209. You, as you say it "work harder than most" So enjoy your obsession.... And, please correct me if I am wrong, but you work in another GENTEX facility, not this one. Please do make it sound like you walked out of the back door after punching out....or you were next door. See the log I pasted below on the same cache for the narrative on the FTF houndfest that ensued in search for a FTF. Nice try. from Johngie. "Find #1859. I was woken by my phone chirpping and when I looked at it I saw some new caches in the area. I got up and got dressed and jumped into the Geo-blazer and headed off for this location. On the way I hear a horn honk and see Superfly in my rear view mirror. We pull into one location and we find out that we are close by not close enough. As we enter the second location we see Absophoto pull in a head of us. After a short search we found the container. We open the log book and find it blank. FTF #148 shared with Absophoto and Superfly. First cache found using the iphone geocaching app. TFTCSL" Grace and Peace -WHO-DEY We went from 180 to 209 because we try, also dont hang out here dripping tears of pity for ourselves. The only reason that your son will never get an FTF is because of YOU and YOU alone, YOU are the one giving up, and for that your son can thank YOU. Dont call me 40 either, another fact that is incorrect. Is there any part of your post that has any truth???? I dont see any!!!

Not much fun for the average famil man????????? Who are you trying to get pity from? I have a wife, a 17 year old, an 11 year old, and a 5 month old baby. Yet I still beat you to caches because I don't spend my time on the forums running other cachers into the ground. "Working in their cars (patrol cars)" Get your facts right before you post, you may find yourself in court trying to defend yourself against these very same and very false accusations. Stop whining and start caching.