Knight-Errant

We have encountered a similar problem more than once before. However, in hindsight (always being 20/20) we think it would have been best to have contacted the cache owner before logging the caches. In one case, the ammo can had indeed been replaced with a fairly good micro by someone (and the log sheet already had some log entries). I believe the cache owner let it continue, but changed the size on the cache listing. In another case we found a small container (also with log entries) that had also been placed by someone. In this case the cache owner checked on it and assured us that the ammo can was still there, but like the spot we found the small container better, so he removed the small container and moved the ammo can to the same spot. In each case the cache owner has considered it appropriate to allow the Found It to remain.

While this could be considered an argument for seperate accounts, we would consider your case to be a valid exception to the general guideline. However, if you are not already doing it, we would encourage you to include this information in your Found It logs so as to avoid confusion--particularly for newer cachers that will get the wrong idea. Other valid exceptions would be involve the previously mentioned adoption-after-the-find and moving caches.

We concure with Arrow42 and, although we are not familiar with the specifics of the cache location, we would find it hard (although possible) to see how a move of under 23 feet could provide a "significantly different caching experience". In the meantime, while deciding whether to replace or not (if your cache is actually in place), please enable the cache.

One more point to add to the previous good ones, the Needs Maintenance log will create a flag for reviewers, whereas a comment in a Found It log just notifies the cache owner. Reviewers frequently use Needs Maintenance logs as a way of identifying caches that MAY need to be archieved. However, they will ALWAYS attempt to contact the cache owner before any action is taken. A related entry is the Needs Archived log, which also notifies reviewers, but should only be used in VERY rare cases (i.e., cache is now on private property with newly posted No Trespassing signs, government regulations have changed making it illegal to have a cache in the area, etc.). In these cases, reviewers will still usually contact the cache owner regarding the matter.

While an interesting thought, the answer to the real issue is not so much a reviewer having a problem with the cache placement (however, hopefully we all want to avoid situations that could reflect badly on geocaching) as much as it is an issue of local laws regarding the matter. Some states specifically have laws against having geocaches anywhere in the borders of the cemetery, while others (becase of the wording of the laws) only prohibit them "on or near graves". While we don't know what your local laws are, it sounds very much like the reviewer was doing an excellent job of doing their job and ensuring that the cache placement was actually legal. As with many claims such as this I would like to know which states have laws about caches in cemeteries and/or "on or near graves". I would not be surprised if these laws do exist but I can't recall hearing of them or reading about them. While we do NOT claim to be any expert on the matter--especially since it is not a local issue for us--the following is just ONE example of such laws. In this case it is taken from the Tennessee State Code: "No person shall willfully destroy, deface, or injure any monument, tomb, gravestone, or other structure placed in the cemetery, or any roadway, walk, fence or enclosure in or around the cemetery, or injure any tree, plant or shrub, or hunt or shoot, play at any game or amusement, or loiter for lascivious or lewd purposes in the cemetery, or interfere, by words or actions, with any funeral procession or any religious exercises." Perhaps others will more expertise may be able to provide more examples and/or details.

While an interesting thought, the answer to the real issue is not so much a reviewer having a problem with the cache placement (however, hopefully we all want to avoid situations that could reflect badly on geocaching) as much as it is an issue of local laws regarding the matter. Some states specifically have laws against having geocaches anywhere in the borders of the cemetery, while others (becase of the wording of the laws) only prohibit them "on or near graves". While we don't know what your local laws are, it sounds very much like the reviewer was doing an excellent job of doing their job and ensuring that the cache placement was actually legal.

Unfortunately in our parts it often seems to be the Russian Olive. (For those not famliar with it, the Russian Olive could be best described as a bigger, meaner, and nastier rose bush, but without the flowers. The 1-3 inch thorns can and will go through most clothing.)

Write note when including any important information regarding the traveler other than those previously indicated. (Also worth mentioning, anyone can write a note for a traveler--no tracking number required. This is very helpful for posting notes about missing travelers.) Again, all these must be done from the TRAVELER'S page, NOT the cache page However, DROPPING travelers MUST be done in conjunction with posting a log entry for the applicable cache, they cannot be dropped from the traveler's web page. Fortunately, it appears that the original poster has figured out the proper procedures.

thanks everyone for the info. The reviewer did send the cache number and when I read the mystery cache coordinates I could see I almost planted mine right on top of his. I will go back and relocate mine. I initially thought all the caches would be listed on the website or on the google map. I guess geocaching gets much deeper than that. All caches ARE listed on the website (except that Premium Member Only caches may be an issue), but Mystery/Unknown caches WON'T show where they ACTUALLY are, just somewhere nearby--USUALLY wiithin two miles.

HOWEVER, depending on the area, what shows on Google Maps can be off as well. We have noticed this to be more of a problem in non-urban areas, so don't rely entirely on Google Maps.

Simple. If he is retired/inactive, can't you just put yours up in the same place? If he's not responding ask the powers that be on Groundspeak if they can archive/remove his. There you are. That is the problem the REVIEWER is the on that is retired not the OWNER. so where do you go? We could be wrong on this one, but we don't believe that a Needs Archived note is limted to the original reviewer. From our understanding it is available to the current reviewer(s) for the area. In our local area we have had several reviewers that have cleaned up nearly all the not-so-tempoarily disabled caches and needs-archived caches. However, these don't seem to be the same reviewers that are currently publishing the caches in the area.

They're also allowed to ask questions and make suggestions in the forums. Isn't it wonderful? You think that's bad, we have also heard that they are even allowed to search for caches WITHOUT any prior experience! Please tell us it isn't so!

Obviously after a holiday weekend (great caching days) the work load will be much higher for the under appreciated volunteers, so take that into consideration as well.

As others have pointed out, this is a workable approach. There is a wide range of capability among those who use wheelchairs. The 1-star terrain rating just can't cover the entire range. There are more specific accessibility ratings at http://www.handicaching.com/ for those who need more detail, or want to provide more detail. For the most part, assume that the "wheelchair" cacher has reasonable use of their arms and not power wheelchair--if it CAN'T be reached by that type of cacher, it should NOT be a terrain 1.0. (Fortunately, virtuals and earthcaches usually qualify.) Handicaching.com even has a link you can add to your cache page.

That works well, but just make sure that your caching name is CLEAERLY legible on the check (or money order) and/or an attached note. While this method does not automatically renew every year, your membership won't lapse if Groundspeak gets you check before the previous membership expires--they just add another year onto the end of your current membership.

If I don't search for the cache, I don't log it either way. I had one I was going to look for along a steep riverbank at night. For safety sake I didn't look. No DNF there. Depending on the circumstances though, a note indicating WHY you didn't look could be very appropriate (i.e., there is currently a forest fire in the area, the normally quite stream is small swift river for a while, there is construction going on in the area, etc.). We agree that these shouldn't really be considered Didn't finds as you never really looked for the cache.

Thanks for the reply. So I'm probably simply not seeing it yet. For a bit there I was convinced they were both no longer there. I'll check out some larger caches and see what I come up with. I'm still working on the 1/1 levels though since I am doing this with my children. On the plus side, we did find lots of abandoned golfballs, which to a kid is just as great as finding a cache lol. Having a better idea of what you are looking for is a HUGH part of the obsession sport. We noticed a log on a cache that we have yet to find that indicates a previous cacher was actually holding the cache in his hand, but didn't realize it.

We occasionally find ourselves giving up on caches on private property. However, we have also just about passed on many that were listed as being on private property, but ended up being accessible from the sidewalk (frequently in the strip between the sidewalk and road). Cache owners sometimes need to think more from the perspective of how finders will feel about searching.

While is IS possible to change user names, it is NOT encouraged as there are several problems that can arise, even if it is allowed. In your case, we do believe that Groundspeak would likely consider it a valid reason to change.

Doesn't sound like much variety going on there, aside from "and a host of others too numerous to mention." I'd love to hear them mentioned. We have found one that specificially stated in the description that a screwdriver was needed (but that cache is now archived). We have also found several that were electrical boxes, but if one looked closely, it was quite obvious that the "fake" part just didn't fit with its surroundings. (When was the last time you saw a combo padlock on a electical box at the base of a telephone pole or a little shiny silver metal cover on a large and otherwise dark green electical transformer?) However, we did find one that was so real looking that we were at the give-up point when it donned on us that it had a geocaching logo on it, DUH! We do share a general concern about the safety and/or legality of certain geocaches. Bottom line is that if we don't police ourselves, we leave the job for someone else. However, we are sure that we are just "preaching to the choir".

We have heard that the true definition of a veteran is someone who, as some point in their life, wrote a blank check payable to their country for an amount up to and including their life. THANKS Jeremy and the rest of you for your service that allows us to freely continue geocaching.

See also http://www.cacheopedia.com/wiki/Challenge_cache This is a VERY common misconception. Challenges are VERY much considered Additional Logging Requriements and are subject to the same restrictions (or lack thereof) as all other PHYSICAL caches. Basically, challenge caches can still exist, but the cache owner is NOT allowed to delete find logs just because a cacher didn't meet the challenge requirement. Once found ALL PHYSICAL caches may be logged. Nothwithstanding, we choose to still honor the original intent of the Challenge Caches even though it is not required. If you haven't read it yet, tozainamboku provided a good history of the whole issue above.

YES!, log your drop immediately--otherwise you perpetuate the same problem you encountered. Keep in mind that the while the logging of the cache and dropping of the traveler(s) ARE done in a single combined process, the retrieving of travelers is an entirely seperate process (and seperate from the retireving of other travelers) that doesn't even require any direct involvement of the cache. Therefore, if necessary, you can still log a retrieval/grab several days or more after you log the cache find/traveler drop. We have found that it works best for us to always retrieve (or attempt to retrieve) the travelers first and then log the find and drop traveler(s) second. This way if there are any problems (such as you encountered) we'll know about them first.

This is a common misconception, a traveler CANNOT be dropped from it's own web page, but only from a cache's web page in conjuction with a log for that cache.

You really did "grab" the travelers--the logging part is something else. Traveler log entries are as follows: --Retrieve from [name of cache] is for when you actually pull it out of THAT cache --Grab it from somewhere else is for ALL other means of coming into you possession other than from a cache where it is found AND last logged --Write a note is for leaving any other information (i.e., travel bug is missing, etc) --Discovered it is for when you actually saw the traveler, but did not take it into you possession (i.e., a personal travel bug, a vehicle travel bug, the travel bugs goal was the other way from your travels, etc.) Note the absense of a drop option--dropping travelers can only be done from the cache log page and only for travelers in your possession. As for travel bugs not in the system, if you still don't find it after following BlueDeuce's advice regarding ensuring the tracking code is entered properly, you MAY have an unactivated traveler. If this is the case, the last cache where it was placed will ususally give some indication of that status. If not, it is research time and you'll just need to backtrack the orign of the traveler. Finally, keep in mind that whenever you are picking up travelers in this fashion, please ensure you record the tracking numbers BEFORE you drop them into another cache. Otherwise you'll get home and won't be able to log your grab & drops.