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Has anyone tried looking for NGS Benchmarks?

Guest Wesley Horton

By Guest Wesley Horton
in General geocaching topics

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Guest Wesley Horton

Guest Wesley Horton

Posted
Posted

There is a site administered by NOAA which lists NGS Benchmarks within an area up to 20 miles of coordinates you specify. The site may be found here:

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl

 

If you find yourself with no close caches to seek, there are plenty of things here. Basically, you are looking for a Base Monument or Bench Mark, a 4 inch brass plack set in cement (usually, but not always) It is of a known position and can be interesting because you can place your GPS on the monument and find out what your error is for the given moment. There are several types you can look up, and on the input page, it asks you what type station you want to find. GPS sites are pretty easy and accurate. The challenge is to list all sites and print data sheets. The objective is then to find the placement. Sometime they are radio or water towers, sometimes they are marks which may not exist. (Many of the markers have not been updated since they were placed in 1934 or before!

 

Take a look if you are itching to use the GPS to find somthing. While there is no cache, it can be rewarding just to find the things.

 

Regards,

Wesley Horton

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Guest Markwell

Guest Markwell

Posted
Posted

They were mentioned in a forum eons ago - and I mentioned them again recently. I've purposely found two in my area. But with all the construction and development going on in my area, many are gone.

 

I actually had one that was an "offset" marker. The coords led me right to a curb next to a major road and I found the marker about 10 feet in on the other side of a large sidewalk. I thought "Hmmm. I guess my readings are off today." But then I realized that they had actually spray painted an arrow on the surveyed point to tell the surveyors where the marker was. cool.gif

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Guest EyezOfTheWorld

Guest EyezOfTheWorld

Posted
Posted

I'm so glad you linked that page! I spent over 10 hours yesterday semi-planning a couple week-long hikes in the Alaska bush. Was wondering if there was but didn't know there was a site to look up benchmarks. Definitely useful for the backcountry, but in my opinion, more useful for calibrating Altitude. About a year ago I spent 200 bucks on a Suunto Vector and the darn thing's useless half the time if I have no idea what the altitude is when i wanna calibrate it!

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Guest MattG

Guest MattG

Posted
Posted

I, too, am glad that you started this thread. I spent part of the day yesterday searching for a couple of NGS benchmarks. I found one after about 20 minutes in the area. The other one I couldn't find.

 

I'm considering setting up a couple of "Benchmark Courses" in the Kansas City area. I think it'd be a good way to become familiar with a GPS.

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Guest redd

Guest redd

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by Wesley Horton:

Take a look if you are itching to use the GPS to find somthing. While there is no cache, it can be rewarding just to find the things.

 

 

I've searched for two and found one. One was easy: the description allowed me to walk right up to the disc set in the side of a building, even without the GPS. My unit said I was 200 feet off, but further reading on the NGS report told me the accuracy was +/- 6 seconds, which could be nearly 600 feet!

 

I looked for another that had a much higher degree of accuracy, but it was set flush with the ground in a park. According to the NGS report, the last recovery was in the 70's, so who knows if it's still there, or perhaps covered over with turf.

 

My next target is for a 6 inch concrete post on the 18th tee of a public golf course. I don't know if I can just wander out to a golf course to check it out though. It's worth a try.

 

Regards...

 

Scott

redd@interbug.com

http://interbug.com/pigeon

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Guest Show Me The Cache

Guest Show Me The Cache

Posted
Posted

I just went out and searched for the five benchmarkers nearest my home. All coordinates were within 50 feet of railroad tracks in a suburban environment. One was apparently buried or long gone because few of the details matched due to recent construction. The second was exactly as described. The third was probably there but in such an overgrown area, that I was not prepared to attack it. The fourth had only the concrete base remaining with the brass apparently chiseled out as a souvenir. The fifth was exactly as described.

 

It was fun, but only a weak substitute for geocaching in an area basically devoid of caches other than my own. Close, but no cigar!

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Guest bjbest

Guest bjbest

Posted
Posted

I was wondering if anybody's tried making a benchmark into a virtual cache. It seems like an intriguing idea, especially since I imagine many folks aren't aware of them and might enjoy finding something navigationally oriented (and perhaps checking the accuracy of their own GPS's).

 

On the flip side, I realize that there are so many benchmarks out there, even after removing the patently inaccessible ones (on top of churches, watertowers, radio towers, etc.). How would you choose just one or two to list as virtual caches? It seems to be begging the question of why not just list them all as virtual caches, but to me that seems to be getting out of hand.

 

Thoughts?

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Guest walkerk

Guest walkerk

Posted
Posted

True, there aren't any cache logs but, if you make yourself useful and file a recovery form, you can get your initials listed on the NGS data sheet (an official government document. icon_biggrin.gif ) Some examples (from my neighborhood) and additional links are at http://www.crocuta.com/NGS/index.html .

 

As with geocaching, it's not all about the "treasure" or the log; it's about the experience. Read the data sheet for a benchmark then imagine how different the area was when the mark was monumented, possibly 70 years ago. I'm constantly amazed that the marks were placed so accurately given the simple tools available at the time. Something to reflect on the next time you can't find a cache with your GPSR and its 6 digits of accuracy.

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Guest walkerk

Guest walkerk

Posted
Posted

True, there aren't any cache logs but, if you make yourself useful and file a recovery form, you can get your initials listed on the NGS data sheet (an official government document. icon_biggrin.gif ) Some examples (from my neighborhood) and additional links are at http://www.crocuta.com/NGS/index.html .

 

As with geocaching, it's not all about the "treasure" or the log; it's about the experience. Read the data sheet for a benchmark then imagine how different the area was when the mark was monumented, possibly 70 years ago. I'm constantly amazed that the marks were placed so accurately given the simple tools available at the time. Something to reflect on the next time you can't find a cache with your GPSR and its 6 digits of accuracy.

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Guest walkerk

Guest walkerk

Posted
Posted

West Fairway Park. And it appears that that the NOAA programmers are unfamiliar with the Perl "uc" function - you must input compas directions in UPPER CASE.

 

quote:
Originally posted by echosgold:

Where in Pacifica are you walkerk? I grew up in Linda Mar. Also when I try to use the form at http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_radius.prl it does not seem to be working for me. Any suggestions?

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Guest MattG

Guest MattG

Posted
Posted

I'm becoming more and more intrigued as I search for NGS points.

 

My experience so far is that few of the points are really suitable for our hunting. This is because many that I look up are just off of busy highways. Others are are off of railroad beds. I don't think it wise for families to pursue marks in potentially dangerous places.

 

It would be fun to keep track of the oldest point found.

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

I recently began hunting some local NGS markers and have posted pics of my finds...

 

http://www.photoaccess.com/share/guest.jsp?ID=A996BC2243F&cb=PA

 

The first few attempts failed before I realized the Data Sheets show the coords in NAD83 format. I also began reading the Recovery Notes and concentrate on those whose latest entries were 'Found'. The 'Nellie' mark had last been Recovered over 30 years ago, so I submitted my recovery to NOAA via the Recovery Submission Form

 

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/FORMS_PROCESSING-cgi-bin/recvy_entry_www.prl

 

The PTS 72 Reset Mark is dated 1913 - the oldest one I've found so far.

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

After submitting a Recovery report and reporting the mark as damaged, I sent an email to Deb Brown (who maintains the NGS mark database for NOAA) asking if/when the mark is replaced, what happens to the damaged disk and if possible, could I keep it, I received this interesting reply from her...

 

----

 

Currently we do not have funding for mark maintenance so there is no

ongoing program for replacing destroyed stations. If this mark becomes

"destroyed" all we need is a digital photo of the station along with the

PID and designation and I can submit a destroyed report. Feel free to

keep the mark. If you are interested in resetting this station, please

contact Richard Cohen at FOSSILGPS@AOL.COM He will provide information

on the procedures.

 

Thank you,

 

Deb Brown

---

 

So in this case, as the mark is not 'destroyed', it will remain in place. But, should you locate a mark which is destroyed (ie, the concrete monument is broken, tipped over, or moved from it's original position, or the mark is found, but no longer embedded in the monument), you can keep the disk, but they would like photos of the mark/monument/area to include in their 'destroyed station' report.

 

It sounds as if without funding for replacment, these stations will become extinct as they slowly become destroyed and are not replaced.

 

[This message has been edited by makaio (edited 06 September 2001).]

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Guest bk11

Guest bk11

Posted
Posted

I have been trying to hunt NGS markers, with no luck YET. I was thinking that perhaps the coordinates were in a different format. But also, I was thinking that NAD-83 is the same thing as WGS-84. I guess I'm basing that only on the fact that at the JeEep Converter, NAD-83 is in parenthesis after WGS-84. SO if I have this straight, the datasheets are in NAD-83, and this is the same as WGS-84, and the reason I'm not finding any is because I'm just not finding any. LOL. Any suggestions?

 

http://www.mngeo.com - Minnesota Geostuff

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Guest Cape Cod Cache

Guest Cape Cod Cache

Posted
Posted

f WGS84. Perhaps it as in NOAA or maybe in NIMA ( nima.mil )

 

BTW, chart also shows the accuracy of LORAN-C as 1/3 mile... I have no sympathy for people that meow about 50 feet off the mark.

 

[This message has been edited by Cape Cod Cache (edited 06 September 2001).]

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Guest Cape Cod Cache

Guest Cape Cod Cache

Posted
Posted

ly published charts show them both as the datum used. (NOAA #13230, ed. 42, 11/02/96 ) Try it out on the front porch sometime. I recently read something about how NAD83 was off by just a bit, but not alot. Kind of a beta version of WGS84. Perhaps it as in NOAA or maybe in NIMA ( nima.mil )

 

BTW, chart also shows the accuracy of LORAN-C as 1/3 mile... I have no sympathy for people that meow about 50 feet off the mark.

 

[This message has been edited by Cape Cod Cache (edited 06 September 2001).]

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

bk - pick a few close to your home and read the data sheets. find one or two which have beel recoverd (located) recently - like in the last few years. This will increase the odds that they still exist. Print the data sheet and take it with you. Once in the area, use the visual/distance clues provided in the data sheet to try and locate it if it's not easily seen.

 

Once you find one, check it's posted location against what your GPSR reads. Change your GPSR from WGS84 to NAD83 and see if any difference.

 

Good luck.

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Guest bk11

Guest bk11

Posted
Posted

After two unsuccessful attempts we found one last night. And it was a cool one, because it was actually three disks in close proximity of each other. Kinda made up for the frustration of the first two.

 

Reading the datasheet carefully is definitely an important part of finding a mark. We had fun and took some pictures.

 

Brenna

http://www.mngeo.com

 

PS.. Am I doing this right? The datasheet lists the mark as NAD 83(1996)- 44 04 49.64851 (N) 091 41 27.97328(W), so 49.64851/60=.827 and 27.97328/60=.466....that makes it N44°04.827 W091°41.466? Our Magellan315 read N44°04.834 W091°41.476 at the mark.

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Guest Cape Cod Cache

Guest Cape Cod Cache

Posted
Posted

Yup I went out this weekend and found 2, pretty easy, town bounds next to a state highway, LW3955, Dennis Corner 5 1887. Another one is (was) a par 4 with a dogleg to the right from in front of my house. Gone as reported 1963. Plenty of church spires (one 1846), lighthouses, one stack of the local fish freezer plant (long gone) 1 in Scargo Tower LW3908. Printed out a sheet of locals and looked at some of the data sheets. Good for an afternoon's bike ride.

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Guest Pote

Guest Pote

Posted
Posted

I was bored at work last week and brought up the NGS markers near me. The building I work in is on the site of an old building called the National Bank of Commerce. There used to be a NGS marker on the roof, upside the elevators shaft. The there is the "Budweiser Tower" somewhere near here. Cool part of the town's history. Anyway, I found a spot about .1 mile from my office with FIVE! NGS marker entries and the city's Mile Marker Zero. Well, dontcha know that it is now a virtual cache. Czech it out...

http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.asp?ID=7344

 

Oh, and there aren't 5 markers on the pedistal now, but there is more than 1.

 

Cheers

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

What's really fun is reading the Data Sheets and finding some that were last reported as "NOT FOUND", and then finding them icon_smile.gif I've managed to do this on one so far. I submitted the Recovery Report and am waiting for the Data Sheet update.

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

What's really fun is reading the Data Sheets and finding some that were last reported as "NOT FOUND", and then finding them icon_smile.gif I've managed to do this on one so far. I submitted the Recovery Report and am waiting for the Data Sheet update.

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Guest TresOkies

Guest TresOkies

Posted
Posted

This is cool. I'm ready to run out and find some of these since I've found most of the caches in my areas (Austin, TX and Hydro, OK).

 

So, I wrote a little application tonight to convert one or more NGS data sheets into an EasyGPS .loc file. It's an XML file like Geocaching.com generates, not the binary file that EasyGPS creates that has the same extension (!??).

 

The short directions are

  • Locate NGS markers in your area using the NOAA website
  • Select as many of the markers and press the "Get Datasheets" button.
  • Save the resulting web page as text
  • Run NGSToLOC on the saved file and have it generate a .loc file.

 

If you want to try out my app, it's at http://www.ericcloninger.com/geocaching/NGCToLOC . The user interface is minimal right now (i.e. command line) since I have no idea who is interested in it. If people will use it, I'll spiff it up.

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Guest makaio

Guest makaio

Posted
Posted

d look forward to any improvements you make on it.

 

Now if you can only figure out how to access the NGS Sybase database directly to pull down the marks and feed them to your program to avoid the intial manual process of saving off the text file...

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Guest Cape Cod Cache

Guest Cape Cod Cache

Posted
Posted

I did a couple quick searches on 'NGS benchmarks', alot of .gov, .org and .com (cartography software for sale). I guess surveyors are burnt out after work and don't find them just for kicks. Too bad, some are interesting places. Wonder if with the advent of inexpensive GPSR's if NOAA would put up a hobbist page. (HIGHLY unlikely, but...)

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Guest jeremy

Guest jeremy

Posted
Posted

I bought the full database of NGS benchmarks on CDROM in march/april (I forget). I was planning to parse it and add it as an additional feature on the site for some time, but with the popularity of the game and my full time job it has been slow going. Bravo with the command line interface icon_smile.gif

 

Jeremy

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Guest jeremy

Guest jeremy

Posted
Posted

I bought the full database of NGS benchmarks on CDROM in march/april (I forget). I was planning to parse it and add it as an additional feature on the site for some time, but with the popularity of the game and my full time job it has been slow going. Bravo with the command line interface icon_smile.gif

 

Jeremy

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Guest TresOkies

Guest TresOkies

Posted
Posted

I tried to spoof the NOAA page, but since it runs as a Perl cgi, I didn't think I could. I'm not a perl hacker, so I don't think it's possible.

 

Are the points public data? I see that NOAA sells CDs, but could I buy them and repackage the data on my site without breaking copyright violations? Even better, what is the possibility that they might donate a set of CDs to the cause? I would do the web work, but I need the data.

 

I'll look into this a little deeper.

 

-E

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Guest web-ling

Guest web-ling

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

I bought the full database of NGS benchmarks on CDROM in march/april (I forget). I was planning to parse it and add it as an additional feature on the site for some time, but with the popularity of the game and my full time job it has been slow going. Bravo with the command line interface icon_smile.gif

Jeremy

Jeremy, that would be a totally AWESOME feature! Create a new class of cache, with thousands already available to find! Go for it!

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Guest web-ling

Guest web-ling

Posted
Posted

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

I bought the full database of NGS benchmarks on CDROM in march/april (I forget). I was planning to parse it and add it as an additional feature on the site for some time, but with the popularity of the game and my full time job it has been slow going. Bravo with the command line interface icon_smile.gif

Jeremy

Jeremy, that would be a totally AWESOME feature! Create a new class of cache, with thousands already available to find! Go for it!

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