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Environmental conerns


Guest fiser

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This goes along with a couple of posts I made regarding trail access and the tread-lightly idealogy.

 

In the end it is up to each person to decide. I've only found one cache so far, and am looking forward to going to several others (I already have my "info sheet" printed and in order I want to search), but from the pictures and people talking the size of most caches is pretty small. The impact is pretty minimal I think.

 

As long as people remember not to leave food or other items that will attract animals, and keep the sizes pretty small, I think this should not be a problem.

 

The other consideration is that the caches are generally hidden. Hopefully well enough that for all intents and purposes the person who left the cache, and subsequent visitors who rehid it, left no visible trace to casual walkers by.

 

As long as the caches hidden are done so responsibly and reasonable care is taken to hide them, I think we are leaving a minimal impact.

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Guest andysolo

i would like to think geocaching might further encourage a love for the outdoors. i'm sure there are people who would otherwise have no interest in hiking, who have been spending lots of time in the woods as a result of geocaching. perhaps many of them have changed minds about the outdoors in general, or found new interests to explore as a result...similarly, i've seen alot of people mention bringing their kids geocaching, who are always very excited about the whole venture. try bringing kids on a 3 hour hike without a cache (good luck!), or even convincing them to come walk in the woods instead of playing PS2. these kids, and other people now running around in our parks looking for caches, when they otherwise might not have been had it not been for geocaching, could also someday, as a result, be voting for pro-enviromental legislation of some sort-maybe this is too much of a tangent, but my point is that geocaching might not only create a new found love of the outdoors for people who might not have otherwise ventured to these special spots where the caches are, but in the end this all might in some way benefit our parks etc. generally speaking.

 

leaving an invisible, monitored, sealed plastic container that encourages people to venture outdoors, outwieghs my philisophical qualms at this point. i guess encouraging people to bushwack around offtrail might merit more discussion though.

other people have been more articulate about their own philosophy in another thread somewhere in the forum, check it out.

 

andy

 

 

[This message has been edited by andysolo (edited 01-09-2001).]

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Guest Ciemon Dunville

Some good points here,

 

Maybe this will start a new type of minimalist caching. What's the smallest cache you could leave that would achieve the aim?

 

 

------------------

Ciemon Dunville

G0TRT

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If all you wanted to leave was a notebook and pencil nub, or even a 3 x 5 notecard, all you'd really need is a small ziploc freezer bag.

 

I bring up the green argument for two reasons:

 

1) I'm trying to imagine what would happen if everyone started stashing. Public lands, and every decent scenic point are suddenly the site of a cache. How do parks respond? No stashing, probably enforced through existing littering/vandalism ordinances and *fines*.

 

Does anyone remember how easy it was to go mountain biking in your local state park before it became popular in the late 80's? I fear we're approaching the same situation here. We are probably already in "the good old days" of geocaching. As more people do it, the greater the impact, and parks and public lands management will respond accordingly.

 

2) I haven't checked all the discussion archives, so this may be redundant, but Outside ran an article on Geocaching last month, and I think we can all agree that we will probably see a surge in interest as soon as the northern hemisphere thaws.

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Guest jeremy

I'd think that if it got to the point where a majority of hikers/etc. folks got into geocaching, we'd work with the park service to create "environmentally safe" caches placed/maintained by the park services themselves.

 

We are moving towards a less "gifty" and more "loggy" sort of game, so I can see the caches getting smaller as we go. If it gets more popular I'll also encourage the voluntary removal of caches after they've been logged so many times.

 

These aren't bolted down or affixed things... they're very mobile. Because of this we have a bunch of different ways to remove, move, etc. caches, enjoy the scenery, and have a little adventure without stinking up the place.

 

Jeremy

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Guest Mike_Teague

If we are to believe the conventional wisdom created by the environmentalist movement, 90% of the "native" or "ancient" forests are already gone.. What is left for us to destroy? What damage can we cause by caching, even bushwacking in 2nd or 3rd generation former clear-cut forests... Could it be that such areas are not forever damaged by human action to begin with?

 

This is a political question more than anything...

 

I personally wouldnt be caching in alpine wilderness...I wouldnt even cache in a designated "wilderness".. but christ.. in a low-altitude national forest? I just dont see the harm..

 

I think our current method of determining where or where not to cache has worked well.. Common sense!

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OK. I agree, with just a handful of stashes in the MidWest we don't do much damage with what we do. I suppose if we're doing it well, nobody's going to find a stash if we don't want them to.

 

I work in a profession obsessed with solving/eliminating problems before they happen. I'm trying to do that here.

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Like everything else this horse can be beaten beyond death. While we can't totally eliminate every possible ramification of our visits we can not only minimize our negative impact while maximizing the positive. Pack out more than you pack in.

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  • 3 weeks later...
Guest Team Griswold

I agree with the post about getting kids excited about the outdoors. This Saturday I got my kids (7) and (4) to hike about 5 miles in Saguaro Natl park near Tucson because we were on a "treasure hunt!" They didn't care too much about GPS, I did, but they sure enjoyed the Pokemon, Gumby, and hotwheels car they picked up in the process.

 

The solution I think is to have the person who creates the stash to be responsible for it, and eventually remove it. Every visitor should police the area or post to the owner any problems! Otherwise it's a big world out there, and some small hidden treasures aren't gonna hurt much!

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Guest DrunkenBard

I would have to say that the main concern is keeping the caches themselves as environmentally neutral as possible. Tupperware and other plastics handle this nicely, as they are pretty much inert. The location is generally not going to be a problem, since the caches I've found were nowhere near big enough to affect drainage r erosion, and other than the remote possibility of careless placement blocking an animal's den entry, I'd have to say this is a pretty clean sport.

Besides, "A Walk in the Park" is in the middle of a fairly heavily littered area. I'd be more concerned about the Boy Scouts tossing it than about it having a serious impact on the land. I'm sure many other caches aren't exactly in pristine wilderness, either.

If it's really a problem, how about encouraging cachers and searchers to carry litterbags and leave the area cleaner than they found it, so that the net effect will be quite positive?

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Guest MountainLion

I just wanted to post my observations from geocaching last weekend. While I know of 9 visitors to the geocache I visited (Kippers in the Desert), in the 20minutes me and my friends poked through the stash there were easily 50 people passing through the trail junction at a saddle my GPS recorded as 0.06 miles away. So I'm estimating that over the course of the day over 600 people visited said saddle. (Did I mention the temperature got well into the 80's? There are people still waiting for North America to defrost?) Anyway, I guess my point is, we can each keep an eye out for numbers like this. And until the day when "cache-hikers" are more than 10 percent of all hikers in an area, our additional impact is going to be pretty minimal.

BTW Griswold, I'm glad your kids like my old Gumby!

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Guest Team Griswold

Mt Lion

I agree with you about the smallness of the geocaching impact. In the flying business it's called the big sky theory, and the same applies to the wilderness out there, it's huge.

 

The saddle is a busy place on a weekend with those 80 degree temps! And with the extra little climb to get to the cache, it will keep away accidental finds. btw, the gumby was a great "treasure" for my son, he keeps asking me what it's made of, and as we all know it's "gumbydermis!" Have you planned your stash yet?

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Guest Nostromo

I have to agree with the observation that the environmental impact vs. what we do to encourage people to get out and enjoy the outdoors should more than balance out. The more people get excited about observing nature, the more likely they will work to keep and perhaps expand wilderness areas. Obviously, every action has an impact. Starting your car and going to work contributes to acid rain, etc. You have to weigh it against the chance of igniting a passion in people to fight for these places.

As long as we are not spray painting arrows on trees to point out a cache, or leaving a trail of beercans to the site, I think the overall situation comes out on the plus side.

My 2 cents.

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If you're feeling guilty...

 

Bring a trash bag with you on your trip and pick up garbage along the trail when you hide or seek a cache.

 

Actually, do it anyway! What a great way to promote the outdoors *and* clean it up!

 

Jeremy

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Guest Mike_Teague

, find a good path off, and ditch said trail.. Another half mile into NOWHERE, and find a good place to camp... There's nothing quite like being able to just "find a home" in the wilderness.. Set up tents, find wood, rocks to make a fire-ring, THEN party up, and enjoy the environment. GPS and compass always gets us back home. We always pick up our trash, redistribute the fire ring, and so on and so forth.. Go figure!

 

Immensely more enjoyable!

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carry an equal or greater amount of junk out of the woods and the problem is at least reduced. Consider the caches messages to the future or time capsules, but not detritus. The problems facing our environment really do not include geocachers. Our impact is negligible at best..At least I hope so.

Heck,, there is gonna be a house built right on top of your cache anyway.

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Wait a minute, here. If you pack out more trash than you packed in, won't the conspicuously clean trail leading to the cache adversely affect the difficulty rating?

 

...unless we have various seekers approach the cache from different directions, and eventually...

 

nah! never mind...

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With respect to the environmental issues, I think we have a great opportunity to show that geocachers are actually an asset rather than a liability. If you saw the volume of trash I packed out of the area when I visited the Iron Horse cache, you'd know what I mean. If an area actually starts getting cleaner after cachers visit, people will get the message that we're making a positive impact on the environment.

 

Scott

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scott i will have a new cashe for you to look for in ne florida in the next few days.

 

quote:
Originally posted by ScottJ:

With respect to the environmental issues, I think we have a great opportunity to show that geocachers are actually an asset rather than a liability. If you saw the volume of trash I packed out of the area when I visited the Iron Horse cache, you'd know what I mean. If an area actually starts getting cleaner after cachers visit, people will get the message that we're making a positive impact on the environment.

 

Scott


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Guest jessie2019

As an environmental attorney - believe me when I say that these caches are minimal compared to what so many others have unfortunately left on public land. I see no real harm to the environment from this sport - except in the rare occasion when the geocache may have been left in the habitat of an endangered species and the mere disturbance of a visitor would jeopardize its survival. I suggest we work with park or other public land officials - some of which may be initially reluctant at first - to educate them about this new sport.

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Guest Captain Leno

I can get on my SOAP BOX HERE but I will try to keep it mild.....

 

To those who question the ETHIC of this sport, and wonder if it is harmfull to the environment....

Do you really think, that we, as GEOCACHER are doing any harm to the environment ?

After I walked passed (too many to count) POP cans and GARBAGE in the woods today ????

I have been battling this topic for YEARS with my other hobby of Metal Detecting.

Part of MY hobby includes going in to Parks and Historical areas and DIGGING up artifacts made of metal (coins, tools, jewelry, Civil War Relics, etc.)

And PRIDING MYSELF on the FACT that after I am done, NO-ONE can tell I have even been there !!!!!!

 

The simple concept of HUMAN BEINGS taking an interest in our parks and recreation areas for WHATEVER WHOLESOME REASON is WONDERFULL !!!

What our Recreational areas need is MORE PEOPLE like us doing EXCACTLY the sort of things WE ARE DOING !!!

Using the PARKS RESPECTFULLY !!!!

I guarentee that the park I was in today is CLEANER than it was before I went in !!

Don't Believe Me ??? Look in the back of my Pick-Up truck !!!!!

There is about 15 POP cans (all that I could carry WITHOUT a sack) that were in the woods !!!!!

 

I don't care WHAT your DEAL is..

Hunting, Fishing, Metal Detecting, Geocaching, Walking, Running, Camping, Hiking, etc...

Any Wholesome activity can be done while RESPECTING the suroundings...

 

Folks that "come down" on Hunting and Fishing really CRACK ME UP...

Years ago, in our area, if you seen a White Tail deer, you REALLY SEEN SOMETHING !!

NOW THEY ARE EVERYWHERE !!!!

 

Lake Erie was classified DEAD a few years back, now it is FULL of Walleye and other game fish....

 

Where do you think the money comes from to stock these areas with wildlife ???

Do you think if NO ONE was interested in Fishing Lake Erie or hunting White Tail in Indiana that there would be an ABUNDANCE of these Critters today ???

 

Revenues collected from FISHERMAN and HUNTERS paid for most of it.. Think about it...

 

If the NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM was OVERUN with people like us wanting to GEOCACHE do you think the TRASH would Grow or Decrease ???

 

If the Government offices were OVERUN by people like us to Lobby for LAWS to be inforced to protect the LANDS so we can SAFELY partake in our hobby, do you think they would listen ?????

 

When you go on a hunt, make it a point to carry out MORE TRASH than you carry in, even if it is ONE SINGLE POP CAN, and if EVERYONE WHO DOES THIS HOBBY follows that simple rule... The Earth will get CLEANER and CLEANER with every found CACHE....

 

Do you see anything wrong with that Philosophy ????

 

I'm off my Soap Box Now.....

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  • 2 weeks later...
Guest Florian

For me, i wouldn't place anything in a national/state park or monument or a wilderness area. I don't want anything artificial in these areas. (Of course i know there are lots of artificial things there already, but i don't want to contribute.) The one cache i've paced so far (Truckhaven, waypoint GC30A) was just outside a state park. Also one thing i do, no matter if is in a state park or just out on any open land, is to pickup as much trash as i can. I figure if i pick up a bunch of cans and bottles that leaving a small cookie tin cache is a good exchange.

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Guest lynnwoods

If we really want to have no environmental impact on our parks then we should all just stay home. The only seriously negative impact I can really see with this activity will be caused by people wandering around off trail. This is going to compact the soil and damage plant life. A couple of suggestions, if you are seeking a cache stay on the trail as long as possible. If there is a thick area or wetland go around it don't just bust on through. If you are hiding a cache put it near an existing trail or road and try to make the approach through dry, open ground. Don't leave one in the same place for too long, rotate your location. You should also check with the park manager to see if this activity is allowed, he may also be able to suggest low impact locations for your stash. Finally, I don't think digging a hole and planting your cache is responsible at all. We don't need people digging up the woods looking for it. Hide it under some logs, brush or rocks and the impact will be minimal.

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Guest Krepism

I agree about not digging a hole for your cache. I would think some people could start digging 3-4 holes before they find the real spot. Im suer this issue has been beaten to death, but my last thoughts are this:

I use these parks to there fullest, either in my Jeep or on foot.

I take out more and never leave a thing.

I never "Blaze" new trails.

I try to avoid a muddy trail when possible, using Topo maps there is always another way around.

I take the most direct approch I can to the location.

I repair trails if they are damaged.

I nurse plants and trees, that have fallen or been damaged.

I close all gates that I pass through.

I leave open gates that were already open.

I ask permission to cross private land.

And last, "RESPECT AND YOU WILL BE RESPECTED"

Basic thought of the any one who should tread lightly!!!

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I, myself, also have a Jeep and I do occasionaly go offroad. I stumbled on this site becuase I was looking for info on my Garmin III that I just picked up. So far I like the idea of geocaching as more a log type thing than a gift type thing. BUT, for people to say we are hurting the enviroment, PLEASE! We do more harm driving on the road than with hiding a plastic box in the woods. So "greenies" prefer we never set foot in the wild. Some want us to dig up development and let the grass grow. I subscribe to the Tread Lightly philosophy. I do as little damage as I can. Even if you walk in the woods you damage them. Geocaching is the least of our enviromental worries.

 

 

------------------

Will

Now where the hell am I?

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After reading the disclaimers and FAQ's at GeoCaching.com and at Letterboxing.org, I think there needs to be a stronger warning on GeoCaching.com about digging. Since the cache description does not always mention if it is buried or not, I fear that "seekers" may dig in places they should not in an effort to find the cache. I really like Captain Leno's 5 gallon bucket fake "tree stump" idea. No digging, mimimal environmental impact. I hope to place my caches in locations where I need not dig, and then make it clear in my description that no digging is required. We may save this sport from regulation or being banned by being vigilant and using common sense in both cache placement and hunting.

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Ok.... I fell for it! I actually was ready to fork over $40 to get an "Instant-Stump".

 

I really want one! Ok Captain Leno... can you post your geocache Waypoint names so I can find you easier? Do I really have to drive to Indiana to get the plans? icon_smile.gif

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Ok.... I fell for it! I actually was ready to fork over $40 to get an "Instant-Stump".

 

I really want one! Ok Captain Leno... can you post your geocache Waypoint names so I can find you easier? Do I really have to drive to Indiana to get the plans? icon_smile.gif

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  • 2 weeks later...

I'm a newbie, just found the site yesterday and like the idea.

 

Having read all of the talk about environmental issues, perhaps those who establish a cache could include some plastic bin bags in the cache to help people take their/other's rubbish for proper disposal. Anything that makes it easier for people to clean up after themselves/others could only be a benefit.

 

Erosion, though, is potentially a greater threat to this sport - at least around popular caches. That said, what is the average frequency of cache visits? As the sport grows, this will increase, but will it exceed the time taken for the region to recover?

 

Just my $0.02.

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Guest jeremy

Individual caches probably don't get too much traffic. At the most, maybe 1-2 visits a day, normally on the weekend. During the weekday they're all pretty much unmolested.

 

As the game increases, you may expect to run into people playing more often (I've met folks on 3 of my 12 cache hunts), but there will be more caches which should keep the individual cache traffic down.

 

Exceptions would be staged events where large groups play the game. In these cases great care will be taken to reduce the impact, or they will be staged at places (like sport parks) where pounding the ground will have minimum effect.

 

Jeremy

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I wouldn't even worry about it. As an avid camper here in Florida, the rednecks do far more damage than any cache. I've been to the Ocala, Osceola, and Apalchicolla National Parks and seen more hunting sites than i can count. What's a hunting site you ask? Next time you drive down a forest road, look for the orange tape, beer can, paint bucket, or other peice of trash hanging from a tree. It marks the spot where Bubba drove the 4x4 straight into the woods, making his own trail. The end of the trail is usually a pile of empty Busch beer cans, and the remains of countless Slim Jims. I think the hunters have done as much damage as the logging industry. Try finding old growth timber in Florida. Now, I know I'm ranting, but what I'm trying to say is that I have no problem with leaving a well concealed stash when others have zero respect for the land they claim to be trying to protect. As long as people actually respect the land, there won't be a problem. Oh, and for the record, so I don't get slammed: I'm not anti-hunting or anti-redneck. I go bird hunting when I can, and I was born in N. Georgia, so I guess I'm bashing my own kind. I know it's been said 100 times before, but try and clean up after the other morons. That way people can't complain about the sport.

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Capt. Leno- you scare me! I came on here to give my 2 cents about geo-caching and environmental concerns - archaeological sites, endangered plants and animals, erosion problems, etc. but I must ask this question:

WHY do you think it is ok to dig up Civil War and other historic stuff on public lands?

YOU ARE stealing from all of us. You are a major problem when you take it upon yourself to enhance your own collection and your ego because you found the stuff... You are destroying OUR national heritage. Those things don't belong to you because YOU found them - same as caches fon't belong to you - leave 'em for the next guy to find! You most certainly did NOT have permission to dig on public lands. Nobody does unless they have a permit. And don't say if the feds had this stuff they wouldn't do anything but stick it in a box in the back of a storeroom. The feds (archeologists) do legit science and interpret the artifacts' context and write reports (go to www.cr.nps.gov). Too much of our history is completely gone - BUBBa and Capt Leno dug it up and stored it in a box or drawer or frame...or sold it at the local flea market - or on e-Bay. I'll get off my soapbox now. Back to geocaching.

It kinda goes back to that "big sky"or "big ocean" theory - my little one act of going off-trail and digging a little hole won't hurt in the big picture...BUT multiply that by EVERYbody not asking for permission - and the impacts are enormous to the environment. For this new sport as well as its future. Think it won't happen? Where are the large tunas (now desk-size - but 25 yrs ago the size of a pickup truck), the right whales, the (wild) coneflowers, the ginseng roots, the tigers of Asia, etc. etc. etc.?

Get permission from land owners - private or public. Land mangers can tell you where it is ok or not ok to be caching your "treasure." Don't be part of the problem. Like the saying goes - we only got one earth - don't screw it up for short-term fun or abuse.

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Guest Captain Leno

"Capt. Leno- you scare me!

I came on here to give my 2 cents about geo-caching and environmental concerns - archaeological sites, endangered plants and animals, erosion problems, etc. but I must ask this question:

WHY do you think it is ok to dig up Civil War and other historic stuff on public lands?"

 

Historical research!

Salvage Laws say it is O.K.

And it is just plain FUN !!!

 

"YOU ARE stealing from all of us."

 

I don't think so, you are welcome to look at my collection, and if you can positively identify any of it, I will gladley give it back.

 

"You are a major problem when you take it upon yourself to enhance your own collection and your ego because you found the stuff..."

 

Who ever said my sole reason for detecting is to enhance my own collection, I would LOVE to publicly display my collections, the only problem is, there are very few things that I have found that anyone really wants to look at.

And as far as my EGO, I don't need to find stuff in the ground to enhance my EGO.

It has managed to enhance itself just fine.

 

"You are destroying OUR national heritage."

 

And just how did you learn about OUR National Heritage ?

From people that just assume that there was a Battle here or there, or people like me who spent $$$$ and time to get in there and find out ?? Hmm ?

 

"Those things don't belong to you because YOU found them - same as caches fon't belong to you - leave 'em for the next guy to find!"

 

So, what you are saying is.. unless one goes out and spends $700.00 on a metal detector, they don't have a right to know the history of a paticular area ??

Or are you saying that Guy's like me with the $700.00 detectors are obligated to rebury all finds then are obligated to tell the details to bleeding heart PUKES like yourself so you can be educated to YOUR NATIONAL HERITAGE at the expense of guy's like me ?? I don't think so....

 

"You most certainly did NOT have permission to dig on public lands. Nobody does unless they have a permit."

 

I MOST CERTAINLY DO HAVE PERMISION and MOST CERTAINLY DO HAVE PERMITS that are LEGAL, thanks to the elected officials in office who listen to their constituants like me, who take a VERY SERIOUS INTEREST IN DISCOVERING YOUR NATIONAL HERITAGE BEFORE SOME A--HOLE POURS CONCRETE OVER THEM TO MAKE IT CONVIENANT FOR YOU TO BUY MILK, GAS, AND A SUPERSIZE FOUNTAIN DRINK SO YOU CAN CARRY ON WITH YOUR MISSERABLE BUSY LIFE !!!!!!!!

 

And don't say if the feds had this stuff they wouldn't do anything but stick it in a box in the back of a storeroom.

 

No, actually they take your tax dollars and PORK BELLY about 75% of it, and take what is left to build a museum to display things that guy's like me DONATE then charge people like YOU to get in the door...

 

"The feds (archeologists) do legit science and interpret the artifacts'"

 

So, you don't think I spend COUNTLESS HOURS on research myself ??

 

"context and write reports (go to www.cr.nps.gov). Too much of our history is completely gone - BUBBa and Capt Leno dug it up and stored it in a box or drawer or frame...or sold it at the local flea market - or on e-Bay."

 

I have NEVER SOLD a thing that I have dug from the ground..

 

"I'll get off my soapbox now. "

 

I bet you voted for Al Gore did'nt you...

 

I WILL NEVER RESPOND TO YOUR COMMENTS AGAIN..

And before you pat yourself on the back, you did not make me mad, I listened to people like you for YEARS, and all of you are to ignorant to make me mad...

 

Please don't make it a practise to make personal attacks here in this forum, if you have a problem with me, send them to me, that way I can put you on my Blocked Sender List.....

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Guest Captain Leno

R>United States.

 

2. The true owner of the trove may come forward.

 

3. The Forest Service cannot determine the tax aspects or

interests of other Governmental agencies nor is it possible to

determine these aspects in advance.

 

4. Resolution may include negotiation between the finder and

the United States (as landowner) for any nonarchaeological

portion of the trove.

 

Permits shall provide only for search and, if there is a

discovery, for removal to a repository for safekeeping until

determination of ownership. The recovered treasure shall remain

in escrow for one year to allow all claimants to come forward and

to arrive at legally acceptable settlements.

 

2724.44b - Relation to Mining Claims. Treasure trove search

under the guise of prospecting or mining is trespass (FSM 5330).

A trove found on an unpatented mining claim, even if the claim is

prospectively valuable for minerals under the 1872 Mining Act (30

U.S.C. 21-54), does not automatically become the property of the

mineral claimant. The United States owns the land, and

determination of the treasure ownership is as discussed in FSM

2724.44a.

 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

FOREST SERVICE HANDBOOK

WASHINGTON

FSH 2709.11 - SPECIAL USES HANDBOOK

 

Amendment No. 2709.11-99-6

 

Effective February 26, 1999

 

X-63. Treasure Trove.

 

The holder agrees that if treasure or other antiquities are

found:

 

1. Excavation will cease at the instant of discovery and

the Forest Service will be notified so that scientific

examination may be made. Excavation will not resume until

approval is given in writing by the Forest Service.

 

2. This authorization confers no ownership rights to the

treasure. All specimens found will be held in safekeeping

for one (1) year while ownership is established by

applicable law. Such period will be used to establish the

value, for claimants to come forward, and to negotiate or

adjudicate ownership.

 

3. The United States as the landowner has a valid claim for

all or a share of the treasure trove buried on its property.

In addition, if specimens found are other than money,

unmounted gems, or precious metals in the form of coin,

plate, or bullion, the United States may claim all of it

under the Antiquities Act (16 U.S.C. 432). It is agreed

that any such claims will be settled as in item 2.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------

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Guest Quinnow

This is to reply to fiser's top posted comment...

 

Look at it this way, you say you have a hard time coming to terms about hiding caches all over the place and cluttering the woods. I see it in the way of if I go out and hide a single cache in a location, and on the way out pick up 3 or 4 bottles and some paper trash or an old tire laying in the water, that I have by far compensated for the nice piece of treasure that i left in its place.

when I was a kid we played "treasure hunt" games all the time, can you picture a childs face when his own mom or dad says "hey lets go treasure hunting" nothing like seeing the smile of a child!

 

------------------

Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616

www.Navicache.com

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  • 9 months later...

quote:
Originally posted by john:

Like everything else this horse can be beaten beyond death. While we can't totally eliminate every possible ramification of our visits we can not only minimize our negative impact while maximizing the positive. Pack out more than you pack in.


 

well put

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Guest madphatboy2

quote:
Originally posted by Lasivian:

I think our impact is minimal, it's not like we're cutting down live trees to hide caches, or sticking them out on the side of trails painted orange and pink icon_wink.gif

 


 

Your comment is not entirely accurate. this cache is proof of that. icon_biggrin.gif

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Guest madphatboy2

quote:
Originally posted by Lasivian:

I think our impact is minimal, it's not like we're cutting down live trees to hide caches, or sticking them out on the side of trails painted orange and pink icon_wink.gif

 


 

Your comment is not entirely accurate. this cache is proof of that. icon_biggrin.gif

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Guest JAMCC47

Geocaching at times opens up a big pandoras box. We all have our views, rhymes, and reasons for getting involved. As much as I like the alternate use for my GPS, at times I feel like I'm riding the fence when I place a cache. In the summer I volunteer with the USFS, and teach LNT to those who have never heard of such a term. I have planted 7 caches so far, 4 are virtuals. Of the other 3, 2 are so far back in the hills they get little traffic. The other one is near a public fishing access and is designed for kids. The two in the hills are checked regularly even in the winter with the use of snow shoes. One of them is in a very popular area, I've seen 150 day hikers here on a Saturday. But few have ventured all the way to the cache. We have to and should be careful and respectful as to where we place our caches. One little box well hidden off the beaten path will do little damage, the damage occurs when there is too many little boxes, planted where every Tom-Dick & Harry can jump out of the cars and go jaunting through the woods. Some Cachers have little respect, I've seen that from some comments I've seen on the forums and from one reply to one when I asked him about the placement of his Cache.

To Cache Owner:

Nice place for a Cache, if it was a "Virtual Cache"! This is supposed to be a natural area. I would like to quote right from the brochure;... is a sensitive natural area. Wildlife watching, plant identification, hiking, bicycling, and horseback riding opportunities are available. All activities must be on the trail." ... Don't get

me wrong, Caches are a neat thing, but we should be aware of our suroundings. When we "help the younger set demonstrate their 3R abilites" shouldn't we also use the reading to understand the brochure.

*********************************************

The Reply back from the Cache Owner!

I strongly disagree. This is in fact an open space for cityizens . I do not believe open space is an oxymoron. Putting people on a narrow trail, to trudge first one way and then back again, is denying them the opportunity to avoid others to get into the "open" and get some "space.

 

Attitudes like this will give our sport a good black eye.

 

------------------

JoseCanUSea

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Guest jfitzpat

I'd get upset by the cache owner's comments, but I've seen it all for too many years in climbing and backpacking.

 

Besides, the concept of 'public with stewardship' vs. 'mine to do as I please' is seldomed grasped by people like this.

 

Like all other sports, geocaching will learn the hard way. Some, errr, 'oxymorons', will do as they please, have altercations with rangers, and get a huge backlash. Then geocachers will find that their sport is not the center of the universe and that there is no huge public outcry when it is banned in various public areas.

 

Finally, their will be an advocacy group (ala climbings Access Fund), and a constant battle for area access. And, even then, the biggest enemy to public land access will not be the suits at NPS, NFS, BLM, etc., but the handful of self-absorbed, reckless folks who continue to give the sport black eyes through their actions...

 

Self imposed and enforced guidelines can be helpful in derailing draconian regulation, but it is awfully hard to get going. Some good ones to start have already been voiced, but here is my basic list (in reverse order of importance):

 

4. "Cache in Trash Out" should be 100%

 

It would give the sport a good image if every cacher on every outing filled trash bags brightly colored with that saying.

 

3. Don't dig, stack, or otherwise construct hiding spots on public lands.

 

This one really burns land managers, and is a constant battle for other sports (ex. climbers bolting or manufacting holds).

 

2. Never go off trail where it is expressly forbidden, or in environmentally sensitive areas.

 

This one makes people bristle, but failure to heed it is a great way to get something banned in a given park.

 

1. Last, but certainly not least: Never view your sport as a right, view it as a priviledge and act accordingly when dealing with rangers, etc.

 

You can think what you want, "BOW TO ME DIRT WEASEL! My taxes pay your salary!", but always, always, always, act like a guest in someone's home. A local park manager can 'temporarily ban' an activity while 'impact is studied' at pretty much the drop of a hat. Getting something unbanned can take a huge amount of time and money. Forget this at your own (and all other geocacher's) peril.

 

-jjf

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Guest JMaxamillion

TAKE HEED: We are all looking at this from our own point of view...i love geo-caching (truly) but as a person who has activly seen great things go by the way side in the past we must start looking at this from the "enemys" point of view so we can smother every question...concern...and...if...but they have before they even consieve it, should a problem arise of the magnitude that so of us are contemplating. We must do this before they have a chance to take away that feeling of being a little kid again "looking for pirates treasure"

 

IF they Allow Camping...Biking...FISHING...HUNTING They sure as hell better recognize geo-caching with the respect it needs

 

------------------

MAX

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Guest CharlieP

quote:
Originally posted by fiser:

I have a hard time reconciling the fun of our game with the "leave no trace" ethic.


 

This post reminded me of of a term I heard defined some years ago - "Puritan paranoia" - i.e., that deep seated fear that somewhere, somehow, someone may be enjoying life.

 

CharlieP icon_wink.gif

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Guest CharlieP

quote:
Originally posted by fiser:

I have a hard time reconciling the fun of our game with the "leave no trace" ethic.


 

This post reminded me of of a term I heard defined some years ago - "Puritan paranoia" - i.e., that deep seated fear that somewhere, somehow, someone may be enjoying life.

 

CharlieP icon_wink.gif

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Guest jfitzpat

quote:
Originally posted by JMaxamillion:

 

IF they Allow Camping...Biking...FISHING...HUNTING They sure as hell better recognize geo-caching with the respect it needs

 


 

I gave up hunting years ago, but it was getting awfully regulated even then.

 

Fishing requires a license in most states, and actually requires a permit and reservation in some of the great fishing spots of yore.

 

The backwoods camping and open campfire of my youth is basically gone. Permits, passes, reservations, are the norm, and my kids get privacy and the woods, but often we do smores on my tiny MSR stove because roaring campfires are often (understandably, but I don't have to like it) restricted.

 

I like biking, but even I had to admit that the explosion in popularity, and its heavy impact on trails, errosion, etc. would see it increasingly banned and regulated.

 

Don't get me started on climbing and how the explosion in popularity and the high impact of heavily bolted 'sport' climbs has changed access...

 

Is this what you mean by "respect"? Lots of rules, restricted times, cost and permitting, and limited access?

 

-jjf

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  • 12 years later...

If you're feeling guilty...

 

Bring a trash bag with you on your trip and pick up garbage along the trail when you hide or seek a cache.

 

Actually, do it anyway! What a great way to promote the outdoors *and* clean it up!

 

Jeremy

 

The trash bag itself is more damaging to the environment in some cases than it would be to just find the cache and move on.

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The earth has some 60 million square miles of land and there are under 3 million geocaches, that's one geocache per 20 square miles, aren't there better forums you could pick to complain about environmental damage?

 

How much damage do you cause just living?

 

Seriously, I'm all for protecting the earth but people go way too far.

Edited by Roman!
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