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Guest LindaLu

Pay to Play? I'd like to hear from Jeremy

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Guest LindaLu

Jeremy, would you please tell us in a post where you are heading with this?

 

http://www.geocaching.com/subscribe

 

I understand the pros and cons. I just would like to hear from you what direction this site is going in--really. I hear people supporting the idea, I hear others moaning that you will close access to people who don't pay, etc.

 

I'd like to see geocaching stay on an equal and democratic basis, but understand the monetary concerns of running a site like this.

 

Linda

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Guest Chris Juricich

Wow... I don't know. This site IS well run and provides a lot of information, and I'll admit that I'm tempted to pay...

 

Well. As Jeremy no doubt knows, 'netizens' are used to getting it for free though in recent years the wakeup call to the free ride ending has been called.

 

Still, I dunno... my natural inclination is to see how long I can continue my hobby without benefit of geocaching.com, using alternate sources. I've loaded my GPS with enough waypoint/caches to keep me going for years, I suspect.

 

Moreover, I don't visit geocaching.com all that often these days, in any case...

 

oh my... I'm sure Jeremy has factored in folks dropping his site like a hot potato. We'll all see!

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Guest ringbone

I think this is a great Idea. Nothing is truly free. Someone has to do the work. But I think that this would also be important to all geoacachers because a large active membership base is essential to keep the sport growing and is a valuable tool as a lobby of members who want access to places that we may not be allowed in the future. If this becomes a fringe sport instead of an organized group sport with a voice, you can bet that there will be people that will want to stop us from access to public land, state and national forests and such. I like the idea. Also, they stated that people can be free members. Great for kids and people on a limited budget. I would be willing to pay 30.00 a year to keep this site as great as it already is

 

Ringbone

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Guest JamieZ

My understanding is that the subscription is not required. The subscription simply allows you to access more features, which will be coming in the future.

 

Since I don't know a whole lot about it, I won't start rumors by giving out more information that may be incorrect.

 

Jamie

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Guest Rich in NEPA

quote:
Originally posted by ringbone:

I think this is a great Idea. Nothing is truly free.


 

I'm with you, Ringbone. I have no problem paying for things that I desire and cherish. It is only in the context of uncoerced trade that wealth can be created, and I don't care to live on a deserted island. icon_smile.gif

 

"I do not prize the word cheap. It is not a badge of honor ... it is a symbol of dispair. Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!" --President William McKinley

 

~Rich in NEPA~

 

======================================================

Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

======================================================

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Guest martinp13

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Juricich:

Well. As Jeremy no doubt knows, 'netizens' are used to getting it for free though in recent years the wakeup call to the free ride ending has been called.


 

Yeah, I got it free for 18 years. Then I moved out and had to pay my way. It's called life. icon_smile.gif

 

------------------

> Martin

Magellan 330

Don't have time to program and record your shows while geocaching? Get a TiVo !

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Guest GeoScouter

I would be willing to try the premium servies for a year. I really enjoy this site and the game. As long as its just a enhancement of features and not dropping any of the current stuff for non-members I don't have a problem.

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Guest Jake.Hazelip

Oh no! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! rolleyes.gif

 

I think it's a great idea, and the concept of "members only" caches sounds like fun! I'll be signing up for my annual membership soon.

 

Besides, if you actually read the linked page, the regular geocaching.com site will remain just the way it is. Free to all. A paid membership is just paying for perks, and to help pay the bills.

 

I would like the option to log into the site automatically with my membership, however. I hate having to log in for each visit...

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As Jake.Hazelip and JamieZ indicated (as well as some others), traditional geocaching itself will never be a pay to play service.

 

There were some realistic reasons to decide to do a subscription service. First, the cost of servers are getting to the point that out of pocket costs and shirt sales no longer support it. As the FAQ said on the subscription page, we're up to 4 machines in production, not counting these forums (hosted by Killerlink), as well as a new mailserver and 2 dev servers. We're even maxing out our bandwidth, so we'll have to pay for more, which isn't pretty either.

 

To offset these costs, a subscription service over using annoying mega size ads and popunder ads seemed like a good option.

 

The other issue, that I haven't addressed on the subscription page, is that some folks have become targets by anonymous troublemakers that like to destroy individual's caches. Subscription only caches will allow you to audit your cache to see who looked at your cache page and when. In addition, a certain amount of anonymity goes away when you subscribe, so troublemakers will either not bother subscribing or be scared to subscribe since they are no longer anonymous.

 

In addition to these two reasons, I will also be creating new geolocational entertainment services in the future that will be handled by the subscription service. Becoming a charter member now means you'll be locked in at the same rate throughout, which is always a good thing.

 

Ultimately, we'd like to do this full time, and we need to eat. So it has to come from somewhere. And believe me, this has become more than a 1 person job.

 

Jeremy

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Guest Robereno

I tend to agree with your comments. Well, the site is called geocaching.com. Not .net or .org.

Predictions were made a while back that the site would eventually be a ?for profit? endeavor.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Chris Juricich:

Wow... I don't know. This site IS well run and provides a lot of information, and I'll admit that I'm tempted to pay...

 

Still, I dunno... my natural inclination is to see how long I can continue my hobby without benefit of geocaching.com, using alternate sources. I've loaded my GPS with enough waypoint/caches to keep me going for years, I suspect.

 

Moreover, I don't visit geocaching.com all that often these days, in any case...

 

oh my... I'm sure Jeremy has factored in folks dropping his site like a hot potato. We'll all see!


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Guest Julie

I've already posted on the "Just over the Horizon" topic but this one seems more focused so please forgive me if I re-iterate here.

 

I don't mind paying for value-add services, I'm just worried about the "Members Only" caches and "MyPop!" discussion boards restricting the propagation of information.

 

For instance, why would I want to restrict the number of people who see my caches or my logs for others caches. I've seen your explanation about people seeming to be targeted for destruction, but why not just let *everyone* see who looks at their caches so *no one* is a target. Or don't you care about someone who hasn't paid you.

 

And do non-subscribers still get to see all the posts or are there some "Members Only" discussion boards? I would like to hear more about this "feature".

 

Jeremy, if you want to make people pay for things like enhanced maps or advanced searching, well that's a value-add kind of thing that I could live with. But to make caches or discussions totally unavailable if we don't pony up, that just seems wrong and detrimental to the sport we all love. And I for one would take my business and my money elsewhere.

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Guest ALacy

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

In addition, a certain amount of anonymity goes away when you subscribe, so troublemakers will either not bother subscribing or be scared to subscribe since they are no longer anonymous.


Interesting, I pay to give up some privacy.

 

[This message has been edited by ALacy (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest Mr. Snazz

quote:
Interesting, I pay to give up some privacy?

 

You give up some privacy just by posting here. Nearly everything we do involves loss of privacy to some degree. In the case of member registration and member-only caches, this loss of privacy supposidly means that only the truly nefarious will set out to defile those caches.

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Guest Mopar

quote:
Originally posted by ALacy:

Interesting, I pay to give up some privacy.

 

[This message has been edited by ALacy (edited 05 March 2002).]


WORKS FOR ME! We're already on the internet, do you REALLY have delusions of privacy?

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Guest Artful Dodger

I am just curious as to what are the specific enhancements/improvements/additions that the Charter Member geocacher will see for the extra $30 per year apart from what has already been mentioned in previous posts.

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Guest Bodoni

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

To offset these costs, a subscription service over using annoying mega size ads and popunder ads seemed like a good option.


 

And something I'd gladly pay for! Please please please never do the ad thing!

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Guest VentureForth

Of course, Jeremy could always sell out to Yahoo! for a profit. Then he could buy the Seattle Wizards.

 

------------------

VentureForth out to the wild, wet forest...

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Guest KF Quad Explorer

$3.00 a month for some exclusive features. That seems fair to me. Member only caches, yea that to seems fair. This isn't pay or dont play. Its pay if you want the extra. I know that everyone has paid the .39 to have your burger supersized. I want my caching supersized also.

 

Quad Explorer

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Guest Hawk-eye

Thanks Jeremy ... even without any additional enhancements ... it is more than worth the $2.50 per month. A single beer with dinner in most resturants cost more than that! icon_biggrin.gif

 

Keep up the good work and I can't wait to see the new forums!

 

348_1002.gif

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Guest prv8eye

quote:
Originally posted by ringbone:

I think this is a great Idea. Nothing is truly free. Ringbone


 

You would think the GPS manufacturers and retailers would be falling all over themselves trying to buy advertising on Geocaching.com.

Though, I suppose that would only be chicken feed in comparison to even a small percentage of the tens of thousands of Groundspeak readers paying $30 a year.

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quote:
Originally posted by prv8eye:

You would think the GPS manufacturers and retailers would be falling all over themselves trying to buy advertising on Geocaching.com.


 

"We'll be honest. Regardless of what sort of relationship we have with you, geocaching will sell our GPS units."

 

(Quoted from memory from a major GPS manufacturer).

 

So no, GPS manufacturers are not falling over themselves to advertise on the site.

 

Jeremy

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Guest mac

As I said in the earlier post that was apparently deleted, I think we need to support Geocaching.com. We enjoy this service but do we consider all the folks working many unpaid hours to keep the network running? At $30 a year, its a steal!

 

You have my support, I encourage everyone one else who considers the website neccesary for thier hobby to do the same

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Guest Opus P

quote:
Originally posted by Rich in NEPA:

"I do not prize the word cheap. It is not a badge of honor ... it is a symbol of dispair. Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country!" --President William McKinley


 

icon_smile.gif

 

------------------

 

Opus P

Crathvaf Ehyr

Visit my Buddhist Reading Room.

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Guest Robereno

You?ve got a point there. With the number of people paying $30, geocaching.com definitely has lucrative potential. Someone is going to be eating a lot of ? frozen burritos and Eazy Cheese? icon_wink.gif

 

quote:
Originally posted by prv8eye:

Though, I suppose that would only be chicken feed in comparison to even a small percentage of the tens of thousands of Groundspeak readers paying $30 a year.

 


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Guest ALacy

quote:
Originally posted by Mopar:

WORKS FOR ME! We're already on the internet, do you REALLY have delusions of privacy?


No delusions, now I do have some paranoid software which sets between me and the big bad internet, to do such things as lie about what kind of browser I have, which links I came from, convert all cookies to get rid of their expiration date, kill most web bugs, ads, pop ups and unders. But I know a lot information leaks out.

 

I just find it interesting that to get some something we give money and privacy. But this is not only place this can happen. Everytime I go to doctor I give up a lot more money and privacy, so I don't automatically think giving up some privacy to geocaching.com is bad, plus here it is my choice.

 

Side note: I plan to give up some of my money and privacy to support geocaching.com

 

[This message has been edited by ALacy (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest mikechim

The only think that concerns me is the member only caches. I can see the quality caches available to regular members quickly drying up. Thus eventually leaving us poor folks with nothing to cache for besides what I consider "junk caches" (please no debate on what is isn't a junk cache here). I can understand the need for enhanced security but can't this be implemented for all caches, with regards to having to sign in to see a cache or something and then having it logged. I have no problem if the service offers bonuses to people IE higher chat status, enhanced cache page making ability, enhanced loging ability, just basically more bells and whistles which I'm sure most people (including myself once I get out of grad school)who would be willing to pay for this type of thing would still pay for that service. I realize that the costs are going up and I understand that. I also completely agree that it would be right if Jeremy could do this for a living, but I'd almost see more advertising then see member only caches.

Don't get me wrong 8000 popunder ads would kill the site as well.

 

------------------

"...Not all those who wander are lost..."

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Guest AZMark

I do want to see Geocaching.com make money. More it makes, less chance of it going away.

 

Some non intrusive ads vs. lower membership fee? I wouldn't mind too much an ad on some of the pages if membership was cut to $15.00.

 

I will most likely sign up anyway. But PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE say there will be Avantgo available to members, and I'll sign up in a heartbeat. Would love to pick a zip, # of caches, found or not found and be able to sync. If not Avantgo, some other means (Mazingo, Plucker etc) to get the pages into handheld (PocketPC) format.

 

This has been hinted at for over a year, maybe saving it for the pay site? PLEASE!

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Guest Ranz

I have read the concerns that some of you have voiced and I understand them completely. I fall in the paranoid column myself on many things. You should always take an 'Eyes Open' attitude. Which brings me to my point:

 

Many of you have been reading and posting to these forums for some time. Long enough to have a good understanding of who you are dealing with. Jeremy's personality as well as the personalities of many of us is pretty clear. So I have to ask the concerned people this.

 

1. based on what you know about Jeremy, do you think he is in this to get rich? I personally don't. I darn sure wouldn't mind him working full time on the project. It has grown at such a rate that something is going to break without full support, and as he said himself, he has to make a living. I can only guess how much personal time and material he has put into making this site what it is. How many of us would/could make that commitment?

 

2. Based on what you have learned about the other cachers here, do any of you think it will end up being a private party? I am confident it won't. Private caches are happening in some form or another right now. I have even made one for little girl that gave her all to try and get to my cache in 8 feet of snow. There may be other similar reasons I would do it again, but a big part of the fun for me is to offer a hunting experience to anyone who may appreciate it. The vast majority of cachers I know from this site are those kind of people.

 

Nobody wants to part with their hard earned money. Especially me. When I saw the post and considered what I have already gotten from Geocaching.com, not just from Jeremy but from all of you, I decided it was worth 3 bucks a month to try and keep it going strong. I agree that it takes a level of trust that many of us don't give lightly, but when you really think about it, hasn't a little trust been earned here?

 

The value myself and my family have received from this site is worth much more to me than $30.00 a year. The truth is I would probably have spent more using the contribution button. 'Special Privileges' aside, I want to cache for a long time to come. This is by far the best community for supporting that desire. Supporting it back (within my means) is the least I can do.

 

I have read all your opinions and you have now read mine. I hold all of you and this site in the highest regard and don't want to see anything happen that will jeopardize the wealth I get here. I think Jeremy's proposal is a reasonable way to achieve that. I don't believe that he (or any of you) will abuse it. If I did I would not have made the investment. Is it a risk? Perhaps, but one I am willing to take in this case.

 

Happy Caching;

 

geosign.gif

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Guest Rangertrek

members page or area. Will there be a link to this or new url. How do I get there?

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Guest bunkerdave

Well, this got started in Clayjar's chats last night, I presume, and now has a life of it's own.

 

I have been on both sides of this. When I first started, I wondered when (not IF) geocaching would become a pay site. Then I went to "If it ever becomes pay to play, I am OUT." This seems like a good compromise. You still can play for free, all you want. For a little cash, you get MORE. That is the way business gets done in cyberspace. You demo a limited version for free, often for as long as you want, then you decide you really like it, and you pay for the full version.

 

I for one am already willing to pay. Now if I can just get PayPal to work for me. Grrrr!

 

The new features sound like a hoot, and I am already excited to see what else you have in the works.

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Guest cliffy

I think it's a great idea and a small price to pay (If you want the added features that is....which ARE unecessary to play) Heck I have been contemplating pitching in a few bucks for awhile now anyway......BUT, BIG BUT....... Looks like Groundspeak doesn't accept international PayPal orders......hmmmmmm Yoohooooo, Jeremy

 

message.jpg

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Guest JAMCC47

Good Idea.

I like the idea that we can have caches for members only. That would help with those that like to bag a cache and keep it. This could be the begining on Synergestic Caching.

 

------------------

JoseCanUSea

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Guest mrgigabyte

quote:
Originally posted by cliffy:

Looks like Groundspeak doesn't accept international PayPal orders


 

Cliffy, they do, but you have to go through more hoops. I bought some geocaching goodies through PayPal a few months back (theoretically, supporting geocaching.com).

 

It was very frustrating indeed as I had to pay an international user and transaction fee, plus forfeit any payment protection through them that they would normally offer US users.

 

Our contributions will be very close to $60 once it is a all said and done. Will I pay it? Of course I will, I waste at least that every day in lost wages, just reading these forums!

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Guest cliffy

quote:
Originally posted by mrgigabyte:

Cliffy, they do, but you have to go through more hoops.

It was very frustrating indeed as I had to pay an international user and transaction fee, plus forfeit any payment protection through them that they would normally offer US users.

Our contributions will be very close to $60 once it is a all said and done.


 

Uggghhhh Hmmmmm I'll probably pay it as well seeing as I'm addicted, but Jeremy dude!......This is gonna hurt business. LOL

Cheers, cliffy

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Guest cliffy

I think originally that was setup due to shipping headaches as far as the merchandise stuff went...(I eventually nabbed my gear from the retailer out in Calgary......GPS Central) But maybe Jeremy can make it a tad easier just to subscribe.

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Guest kablooey

quote:
Originally posted by Ranz:

2. Based on what you have learned about the other cachers here, do any of you think it will end up being a private party? I am confident it won't.


 

This addresses my primary worry. I fear that the best caches will be marked as members-only caches, leading to a kind of geocaching elitism. Even if Mr. Cache Hider continues to place plenty of 1/1 caches, he's going to make his ultracool 4/3 cache members-only, so that he can audit it closely and make sure that it doesn't get vandalized. If it gets to the point where newbies only have the Sneaker Cache to chase after, we won't be in very good shape.

 

The other thing I'm worried about is the ominous "pay now or you'll have to pay more later when we introduce cool games" tone that I get. I'm not saying that's not good business sense, but that kind of marketing ticks me off. Maybe it just needs to be presented a different way.

 

Overall, I think paying for added services is a good idea, and I think Jeremy has set the bar low enough that almost any employed person should be able to afford it.

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Guest kablooey

quote:
Originally posted by mrgigabyte:

It was very frustrating indeed as I had to pay an international user and transaction fee, plus forfeit any payment protection through them that they would normally offer US users.

 

Our contributions will be very close to $60 once it is a all said and done. Will I pay it? Of course I will, I waste at least that every day in lost wages, just reading these forums!


 

Is it cheaper to send the money to another U.S. user and then have that user forward it? Or do you run into the same fees? (If I can find a way to save you $30, will you pay my membership? :-)

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ana, Arial">quote:


Originally posted by cliffy:

Looks like Groundspeak doesn't accept international PayPal orders......hmmmmmm


 

Crap. I apologize for that. When I was selling Travel Bugs only I didn't want to confuse things for international orders. I removed the restriction.

 

Jeremy

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Guest madphatboy2

I know that the NPS is pretty set in their ways, but I would like to see if some of the money could be used to do some legal work for parks. Or maybe set some of it aside for sponsored event caches. I wouldn't mind paying either. I'm just throwing out some other ideas of how to use the money.

 

------------------

 

MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

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Guest Opus P

quote:
Originally posted by mrgigabyte:

Our contributions will be very close to $60 once it is a all said and done. Will I pay it? Of course I will, I waste at least that every day in lost wages, just reading these forums!


 

Ooo, better to waste it in lost productivity, like I do, than lost wages. icon_wink.gif

 

------------------

 

Opus P

Crathvaf Ehyr

Visit my Buddhist Reading Room.

 

[This message has been edited by Opus P (edited 05 March 2002).]

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Guest MattandLaura

Well I believe in helping out, which I did. I also believe that some online GPS or ourdoors stores could generate a ton of traffic off an advertisement on the site. Putting a small banner under the Get your Gear logo would be huge for someone. Have you looked into that?

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Guest Show Me The Cache

This seems to be a bit of a "Cache-22". I'm having a hard time with it.

 

Let's see...which do I want?

 

JOIN and be labeled with an icon that shows I support the beginning of a discriminatory, two-tier system.

 

NOT JOIN and be labeled a person who does not fully appreciate all the valuable effort and expense that goes into this activity and website.

 

Maybe we should offer another icon that says "I will gladly pay the price, but I do not approve of this approach".

 

Paying for this activity makes perfect sense. Paying extra for additional content makes perfect sense. Damaging this site by offering special benefits to certain people does not.

 

I think this is the first negative thing I have ever written about this website. I guess the honeymoon is over, or maybe this is just the end of the Age of Innocence.

 

I would rather see a separate site started for those who want an upgraded, members-only site. I made that same comment about the introduction of commercial caches last summer.

 

Whatever the outcome, I will stick with this site because it is tremendous. I'm sure I'll learn to live with whatever is placed beside my name and my friends' names.

 

Thanks for listening.

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Guest cliffy

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

Crap. I apologize for that. When I was selling Travel Bugs only I didn't want to confuse things for international orders. I removed the restriction.

 

Jeremy


 

Excellent! Thanks Jeremy! My $30 US is on the way! Been meaning to help out for quite some time..... You've provided myself and family members 100's of hours of entertainment. Thanks again icon_smile.gif

 

Cheers, cliffy icon_smile.gif

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Guest Robereno

I guess I kind of agree. On the other hand I think most of us at least suspected that geocaching.com was a ?business plan? as much as anything. We were just waiting for the other shoe to drop. I guess I might pay $30 a year to play the real game.

 

quote:
Originally posted by Show Me The Cache:

This seems to be a bit of a "Cache-22". I'm having a hard time with it.

 

Let's see...which do I want?

 

JOIN and be labeled with an icon that shows I support the beginning of a discriminatory, two-tier system.

 

NOT JOIN and be labeled a person who does not fully appreciate all the valuable effort and expense that goes into this activity and website.

 

Maybe we should offer another icon that says "I will gladly pay the price, but I do not approve of this approach".

 

Paying for this activity makes perfect sense. Paying extra for additional content makes perfect sense. Damaging this site by offering special benefits to certain people does not.

 

I think this is the first negative thing I have ever written about this website. I guess the honeymoon is over, or maybe this is just the end of the Age of Innocence.

 

I would rather see a separate site started for those who want an upgraded, members-only site. I made that same comment about the introduction of commercial caches last summer.

 

Whatever the outcome, I will stick with this site because it is tremendous. I'm sure I'll learn to live with whatever is placed beside my name and my friends' names.

 

Thanks for listening.

 


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Guest Walkin Stick

Just out of curiosity...

Other than LindaLu's post to start this thread...

Where was/is this link?

I've scanned several pages and seem to be missing it.

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Guest rut

after a while it gets to be a real chore. You can't make everyone happy and there just ain't no reward for working your butt off for nothing but *****ing. I think Jeremy should be paid for what he does. He helps to bring a lot of enjoyment to a lot of people. I like the idea of members only caches and other improvements.

I think it's a good thing. I also think I think too much icon_smile.gif

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Guest madphatboy2

Jeremy,

What would the possibility of paying the $30 for both my wife and I. Alot of us cache as a team (and I refer to family only in this case) but log seperately. Any thoughts on this?

 

------------------

 

MPB2

 

I wander from here to there looking for. . .my mind? And then I find it in the cache.

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Guest fractal

quote:
Originally posted by Walkin Stick:

Just out of curiosity...

Other than LindaLu's post to start this thread...

Where was/is this link?

I've scanned several pages and seem to be missing it.


 

I think Jeremy said it would be 'official' on Thursday, along with the new forums... So the link will probably show up around then.

 

-fractal

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Guest Groover

quote:
Originally posted by jeremy:

In addition, a certain amount of anonymity goes away when you subscribe, so troublemakers will either not bother subscribing or be scared to subscribe since they are no longer anonymous.


 

Before I consider paying I would need to know exactly what the privacy issues are and what information about me is released to other geocachers. $30 is something you can give once and then stop if you don't like it. Once you give information about yourself away you can't take it back.

 

I don't have anything to hide, but I also don't want to be tracked down to an address or phone number too easily. I also don't want other geocachers being able to find me and complain that I destroyed their cache, just because it was destroyed by someone else and I happened to look at the cache page around that time.

 

To me the privacy issue is a much bigger deal and of much greater importance than money ever will be. Otherwise I would be out selling my name to mailing lists for every resturant gift certificate that was offered to me as a bribe...

 

Groover

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quote:
Originally posted by Groover:

Before I consider paying I would need to know exactly what the privacy issues are and what information about me is released to other geocachers. $30 is something you can give once and then stop if you don't like it. Once you give information about yourself away you can't take it back.

 

Groover


 

The privacy policy on the login page remains in effect for account holders and subscribers. We hate spam and solicitors as much as you do.

 

Re: privacy on subscribe only caches, all it shows is the usernames of those who viewed your cache. It doesn't give away personal information.

 

If you want to show your personal info, visit your "my cache page" and change your account info. Everything at the bottom for your profile is optional.

 

Jeremy

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