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Guest *matt
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Guest *matt

lover to fix when their game is done and a new toy attracts their attention.


I ask you to please take action at once to encourage them to make a change and address the problem. Look past the dollar bill and at the very thing you are so glad be a part of - nature.


Matthew Buker

You'll surely hear from me again and again and again.

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Guest WrongWay

Contact me...teamwrongway@hotmail.com


Hi Matt,


I was trying to slip that in before the post got deleted. I was curious as to your motivation.


I reponded to another of your posts that Jeremy has left alive. You can see my response there.


I guess I'm trying to figure out why you chose to attack before determining the intention of the participants in the GeoCaching activity.


By offering positive information addressing your concerns people would be more willing to listen to your opinion. By re-acively posting (to every forum) you developed a bad impression. I seriously doubt anyone would listen. It's like coming into anothers home and telling them they're raising their kids all wrong and their house stinks. Instantly they would put a wall between you and them...and that is what you now have on GeoCaching.Com.


I'm serious. The majority of the people I've met in an outdoors environment really care about it.


Go read the posts on this topic:




Check the dates they were posted...when did you first find the site ?


Environmental concerns are not ignored in this activity.


If you really do care please offer pro-active advice on the site.


If you do run across someone damaging the environment I do hope you educate them...they possibly don't realize the impact they are causing...if they do then contact the local authorities.







[This message has been edited by WrongWay (edited 03-06-2001).]

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Guest makaio

Matt has made it obviously clear that he took absolutley NO time to understand Geocaching and what it's about or who participates. He simply had the misfortune of encountering some uneducated hunters and immediately assumed they represented the sport as a whole. Bad move on your part, Matt.


I won't reiterate everything others have said already, but the jist of it is that we are mostly outdoors prople who care for the environment and that we DO take steps and make recommendations to newcomers on how to prepare and place caches as well as things to keep in mind when hunting them. Alas, had you taken the time to research this before spouting off you would realize that many of your claims are foolish.


In regards to Jeremy and his *capitolist* mentality, if you had *any* knowledge of Jeremy or who is is or what he does, you would know that he donates his time and servers to this sport and all donations he receives are redirected back into the site.


A word of advice, Matt...


It is better to remain qiet and be thought a fool than to open ones mouth and remove all doubt.


Matt O'Brien

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Guest Mike_Teague

Buker talks about erosion..


Erosion is not the problem.. short-sightedness is..


And I'm not talking about generations of human beings, I'm talking geological time..


Environmentalists would have stopped the Grand Canyon from forming if they had the chance...


(how many species of trout and salmon went extinct since the colorado river has been flowing?) -- trivia question

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Guest Mystery_Pirate

I would like to point out to you, Matt that erosion occurs naturally as well. Rain, wind, sunlight, and yes animals all cause erosion. That is why plants have adapted root systems that spread out like webs and hold the soil in place. Grasses especially as well as trees. Mother Nature is much more advanced than you might think, and our footsteps will be erased time and time again. If you want to complain about anything complain about the people who leave trash or chop down shrubs, but NOT ALL GEOCACHE PEOPLE ARE DESTROYING THE LAND. In fact it is normal people like you who drive your car out to the park everyday to try and find someone walking off the trail, so you can complain. Everytime you drive your car out there you are releasing thousands of harmful toxins including CFC's (Chloroflourocarbons) that deplete our ozone and deprive people and plants of oxygen. You release gasses that cloud up in the atmosphere blocking much needed sunlight for these plants you want to protect, and if you keep driving around so much for your little crusade you will cause more harm than good.


Sounds kind of crazy doesn't it?


Thank you for your time

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Guest WrongWay

Wow, that is a good question Mike.


Just a heads up, check out:




I had a few discussions with Matt and came to find out his concerns are similar to ours. His introduction of those concerns was questionable but that's in the past. He is willing to work with us...check it out. I'm hoping Matt will be able to provide some good insight to these eco-issues that will benefit the environment and this activity.


So what's the answer Mike ?

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Guest ScottJ

I'd just like to ask one question, Matt. When all this land belonged to the native Americans and the animals, who roamed free in places that "can not take foot traffic", was one of your ancestors there to snipe at them, too?




[This message has been edited by ScottJ (edited 03-06-2001).]

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Guest *matthew

Well, I'm glad you are all out there reading and perhaps thinking a bit as well. Just so you know, I've never even done any of this before. I've never added my 2 pennies. I've hiked, and I've lead a good clean life in the woods and out, but you guys need to know that I am the least of your worries. If you don't take some action here and now, then you will hear from so many others. I know my approach has been abrupt but listen to what I say. If there is one thing that all of us love more then anything it is not the computer monitor, no it's the trees and the birds and the clean air. It's the freedom to have wild places and to be able to play in them. But we need to protect them and to protect them we need to stop and understand them first.


The problem I see is that still no one really thinks Geocaching has potential to be a problem. A lot of your posts simply dogged an outsider looking in. And that is a problem, when a group that has potential to damage our environment is so narrow-minded (and I know this is not very many of you, but it is some of the ones actively promoting the sport) that they do not even see a problem. How can we fix what we do not even know is a problem. And I use we, because no one is to be left out here. We all enjoy time in the backcountry, so we all need to look at the bigger picture and try to understand a world bigger then ourselves.


My concern is that our wilderness is not growing any bigger. Any argument there? We are not planting forests either and there is no plans to make more wild areas that I know of. Sure we may preserve them, but you will never see us planting trees, digging rivers or building mountains. You see, we have a finite amount of wilderness to play in and we have a growing number of people who want to play in them. Now that means that we have a responsibility to educate ourselves and others, especially newcomers, as how best to keep that land for generations to come.


You should know that I am an expecting dad and I can not imagine my baby growing up in a world without seeing, smelling, feeling and hearing nature as I did growing up. After all, it's been 28 years for me and I have seen more wilds taken from this country then I ever thought I would at age ten.


So you say Geocaching will not effect the ground beneath your feet. Maybe that's fine in your area, but where I live it is different. Where I live we already have so many people going out on the trails that's it's like WallyWorld when you set out to do a day hike 2 hours from of the city line. In the Rockies we have a problem with overrun backcountry and as a result erosion and litter to our trails and our environment, which is just taking more wilderness from my kids.


I am not going to try to convince you all that what you are doing can and will be damaging in some areas. You should know that your sport has the potential to grow faster then expected. If you don't, then I am telling you that it does. Your feet alone will do almost nothing, but get a group of 20 every weekend and you will hurt the plants and animals in a place that once was left alone. A place where birds could fly and deer could relax. Where trees could grow and plants flourish. I've said it before and others have said it to me. You could run bulldozers through the forests in the east and you would never know they were there, but you can not in other places. Places like the deserts and the mountains of the west do not repair so easily. They erode. They do it naturally and they do it under foot. These tender places do not mend as they do other places.


What I am asking is that you recognize this and work to find a better way for everyone, plants and animals alike, in all places. Geocaching has the potential to be a wonderful sport, but only if it takes some responsibility for a land it uses as a playing field. A land that won't be around forever.


Thanks for listening to me and letting me be heard. I have committed to help where I can. I have contacted my local Parks and Rec and will work with them to help find a better way. I am not here to try and take anything away. I just want to make sure things are done right. If you think I am bad, you are wrong. I am helping and I hope you see that.


I have attached a letter from the Boulder Mountain Parks and hope you find it informative. As well, I have attached some suggestions. Please feel free to contact me if you would like to discuss further.


Matthew Buker




Matthew - thanks for your comment about geocaching. I hadn't heard of this sport but I do hear your point of view. I'm going to circulate your e-mail to our Ranger staff and some of our policy makers and planners to start and Open Space Mt Parks discussion about the issue. I always think someone is inventing at this moment in a garage the next outdoor craze that will be the bane of our existence. :-)


If all the annual visitors to Op Sp & Mt Parks made a human chain Ø al 3.5 million of them Ø it would stretch from Boulder to Hawaii. That many people can do horrific damage, even if they mean well.


Dave Sutherland

Education & Outreach Specialist

City of Boulder Open Space & Mountain Parks

P.O. Box 791

Boulder, Colorado 80306

Phone: 720-564-2057

Fax: 303-499-6181



Here is what I have sent some of you. I hope you take another look. *matt

My suggestions...

Before the site comes up flash a notice about erosion and foot traffic - I'm sure a magazine like backpacker would be more then willing to help out here and anywhere you need it. I will even work with them if you need someone to help out.


Encourage wildlife education and preservation - use local agencies to help with specifics and regional concerns.


Post warnings to specific regions about raptor populations and breeding times - this info can be found in most park and rec sites.


Post erosion concerns specific to the regions at hand - I think I've said this enough.


Make a discussion forum for environmental issues - get someone pro environment to run just this one discussion group, someone for Geocaching and for the environment who can see the best use of time and trail.


Post "safe" areas and encourage the use of these areas - this would help people who don't know what they are doing refine their skill before stomping down sensitive areas. These places would be great for the types of geochaschers I saw in Boulder. They could learn their GPS where geocasching is encouraged and then take what they have learned to more difficult areas.


Find new ways of hiding casches - this is not as big of a deal to me. It seems like you are already doing this well.


Get regional leaders that can be the pulse of that region - this is huge. Every place is different. Some places need more foot traffic, but some need less. These people could help out finding which is which. A person in NYC can't moderate what is going on in the Front Range, right?


Be sensitive and hear out environmentalists - they're a touchy group.


Encourage clean up of back country - I know you do this, just keep it up, it makes everyone feel better about everything.

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hreat. The worst thing is that after all is said and done he has not brought up any major points that other actual geocachers have already brought up. He may actually know a lot about the environment and how to use the resources responsibly but his attacking posts has made his credibility questionable and pretty much quench my (and I suspect other readers) desire to interact in a constructive way with him. The two or three very lengthy threads that have spawned off Matt?s posts have only manage to eat up some storage space on the server and not much else.


Matt?s biggest concerns are not the environment but the power he thinks he can throw around by acting as this high and mighty environmentalist and the attention he gets by jumping into a discussion board like this with "guns blazing". He likes to make threats to get his way; it make him feel like he has some power. If he had truly been concerned with geocaching?s impact on the environment he would have gone about this in a much more professional way. On the newsgroups most would call him a TROLL and add him to their kill file. I wish we had kill files here. I have read all his posts up to this point hoping he would say something unique and beneficial to the activity of geocaching. He has not and I will waste no more time on his ranting. I have better things to do with my time and I don?t need his lousy attitude mucking up an activity I really like.


I do think we have to be conscience about the environment. Every geocacher, hiker, hunter, or camper needs to learn about his environment and how not to make a detrimental impact on it while he is enjoying his activity. Matt is not going to help us do that he is only here to attack us.


Have some fun go find a cache!



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Guest AZMark

And he is still double posting,,,Kick him off the site again,,,,I call it spam, no need for it,,,he can post nice or not at all,,,Kick him,,,kick him,,,,kick him...


OK I've spammed enough.

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Guest ScottJ

Jeremy, maybe someone who is writing letters to park management, "warning" them about our sport, is not someone we want to give a voice in the forum?


I don't mind listening to the thoughts of someone who has genuine concerns, so long as they're presented in a civil tone. However, when an action like this letter-writing has been started, the conversation's pretty much over.


Just a thought.



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Guest jeremy

I can't be a dictator (though I'd love to be). My role is to sit aside as a referee and blow the whistle when improper activity happens (like spamming the board).


Since Matt's concerns are valid, his comments remain. However the method at which his point was initially given spammed the board, which breached general Internet etiquette.


My opinions aside, it's the best way to run the board.

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Guest 300mag

*Matt and others like you i hope you walk to work because of all the gas you burn. Think of all that SMOG you do.Also think of all that lumber being cut,Think of all those pesticides on your veggies and fruits... Go out and PLANT A TREE. That would really help.

Don't worry i respect nature a lot.

And i pick up my and others garbage if any.

Oh well there will always be someone not happy about something.

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Guest jeanine

Perhaps its time to begin writing letter ourselves? I think the park services would be wise to allow sanctioned areas for geocaches-- already there a lot of circumstances where wilderness areas are allowed for various public uses. Also as far as foot traffic is concerned-- many geocachers, I think, are folks who would already be out there hiking around, this is just another reason to be out there. Also-- the spirit of geocaching itself condones leaving a site in better shape than it was found. And one last question... What makes MAtt's way of hiking superior to the geocachers'? Isn't he planning on someday taking that unborn child of his out into nature to learn and explore? That is all we are doing

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Guest Exaibachey


This is from the above msg from Matt:

>Matthew - thanks for your comment about >geocaching. I hadn't heard of this sport >but I do hear your point of view. I'm going >to circulate your e-mail to our Ranger >staff and some of our policy makers and >planners to start and Open Space Mt Parks >discussion about the issue. I always think >someone is inventing at this moment in a >garage the next outdoor craze that will be >the bane of our existence. :-)

>Dave Sutherland

>Education & Outreach Specialist

>City of Boulder Open Space & Mountain Parks



No one here knows me or my background, as it is really not their business. BUT, these two, both or environmentalist friend, this Dave Sutherland and his quote and also what the NPS stand on this are all becoming the "bane of our existence"!!

I have spent most of my 39 years living in, on, from or when I am not there, trying to get back to the woods. It really pisses me off to see two such narrow minded people talking only to each other and all of us sitting by the wayside waiting for the proverbial ax to fall as it were. We pay the NPS people good money to keep us off of our own land! Another great govt. agency to protect us from ourselves. I love the woods and I really think this is a terrific sport. I am tired of the environmentalist pressure from a handful of squeaky wheels. Let them live off the land for a while and watch their opinions (and lives) change.

Just my 2 cents worth.




[This message has been edited by Exaibachey (edited 03-31-2001).]

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Guest Hunter

have no intentions of placing a cache anywhere that a bit of light foot traffic would cause any harm. I would in a second give up hunting whitetail if I thought I was a threat to the species, but I am not. I live in MA and erosion is not much of a problem. If it was I am sure my fellow geocachers would take that into account and tread lightly. Matt sounds like a guy who enjoys the wilderness through Geographic Explorer and not participation. Enjoy yourselfs...

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Guest Quinnow

I am not certain how to take this fellow at all. I tend to think that it is he that could care less for what is happening or could happen to our lands. I think this is just a source of fun to him to see how many people he can put into a stir.

I to am a hunter, and not just one that takes the day off from work and grabs the gun. I have gone as far as 3000 miles to hunt elk and walked as far as 30 miles to hunt deer. And just as "hunter" stated above, I have not seen many areas that a few footsteps or people walking about would do any harm. as a matter of fact in my area of upstate NY you could most likely walk a marching band through the woods and if there was any damage it would regrow in a matter of days. We consist mainly of hard woods and open fields. He would be doing a much better good if he was out chasing these industrial plants or oil tankers around. Why sit here and gripe over geocachers who only wish to enjoy the outdoors. Heck, we even offered to pick up trash while doing it!

My last cache I placed I left one small ammo container, while leaving I picked up 4 bottles, a can, and an old bike tire. Where I walked will recover in a day, but that stuff if I left it you would have found it there 100 years from now, so who did the greater good?



Quinn Stone

Rochester, NY.14616


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Guest Hunter

I was just peaking at the details of my "Willow Brook Wander" cache and note that I advise seekers that the general area holds a large population of Allegany mound building ants and that they should watch where they tread. I also point out that there is a very large stand of Ironwood. I think wise use and participation is a benifit rather than a "bane". Come on guys... I know where there is a vernal pond with loads of spotted salamanders and we all know they make great bait. Think simply so that others may simply think....

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Guest Snowtrail

Some of the things that have been discussed is covered in the "Leave No Trace" policies. It covers erosion, trash, noise, etc. See www.lnt.org for more.


In wilderness is the preservation of the world. - Thoreau


[This message has been edited by Snowtrail (edited 04-06-2001).]

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Guest jeremy

I contacted the Leave No Trace web site and asked for information on how to become a partner, promoting the sport.


When I received the pamphlet, I was a bit horrified to see that Subaru was a sponsor. On the front of the pamphlet it says "Subaru - The beauty of all wheel drive."


I know folks need funding, but isn't this a little hypocritical? If not, than I'm sure we can try an implementation of LNT.



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Guest robanna

off trail use and any activities that involve taking anything from the park or leaving property in the park. Our wildlife closures specifically prohibit human incursions into protected areas. Activities that damage property or can be perceived of as littering or construction of structures are not allowed.


Our preference would be to see the geocaching activities happening on lands that are less vulnerable than the Open Space and Mountain Parks properties. The basic premises of the "Leave No Trace Policy" are critical to the protection of these lands: stay on trails, leave it as you found it, carry out your trash, manage your dog, pick up after your pet, and share the trail with other users. (For more specifics on "Leave No Trace", visit the web site www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace/lnt/lntonos.htm.) Our regulations can be found at www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace/rules.htm.


Thank you for taking the time to read about our concerns. Feel free to visit our web site at www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace or contact us at sutherlandd@ci.boulder.co.us or by phone at (303) 441-3440.

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Guest tecmage

Hey group,


I've read the posts here, and there are some interesting points being made. First off, we do need to consider the environmental concerns being addressed. Having said that, I think "*Matt and Dave Sutherland" are addressing some concerns for a particular locale.


Dave's points of concern are very good, but, it sounds like his area has some serious issues with overuse of the wilderness space. Seems to me that focusing on Geocaching isn't going to resolve the preexisting issue of "social trails."


While I think their concerns are important, consider the threads here that talk about responsible items in caches, gaining permission before placing a cache, and etc. I think Jeremey and company are doing a good job at trying to educate folks before they go out chasing caches. Newbies like me need to help. :0


My fiance and myself have prepped three caches for the central part of our state (topic of another thread). We are working with local people to: 1) get permission to place them in state and local parks, and 2) get assistance in safe places to place them. When I mean safe, I mean non-hazardous locations that won't harm sensitive plant, animal or human life. Also good locations that highlight the beauty of the parks. (see thread on "how far off the trail")


If a park or open space is that sensitive, then we should avoid it- so should everyone.


I don't see anyone here talking about 4wheeling to the coordinates, or leaving their picnic trash behind after a long hunt. I do see people taking exception to being attacked by Matt. Mr. Sutherland, you sound like you'd be a good person to help out with some of the environmental concerns in Colorado. I will work with my local folks to do what I said above.



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Guest Dirtnapper

This reminds me of another recreation I used to do?metal detecting. In short, there were so many people "concerned" that many towns banned the hobby. Yes, I am sure there were a few in the group who did what was said: leave a few holes, etc. Yet, look at the excavations that the kids leave while playing in the sand?do we stop them??? BUT, it was many of us walking the beaches swinging who also picked up the metal pull tabs, crushed cans that the boozers buried in the sand because they were too lazy, or drunk, to take them to the trash can, and fish hooks with line and sinkers just waiting to catch you . I can not tell you how pieces of medical waste I picked up along the shores! Most "th'ers" carried a bag to put the trash in and would drop in off in the barrel when we left the beach. I do not walk any beaches without something on my feet? I know what can be in the sand below. Most of us are responsible with the environment?it won't be long before this hobby gets the same deal. Oh yes, I do not metal detect anymore?around here it is a complete ban. Yet, the towns do nothing to remove trash at the beach, but, remove those of us who did pick it up!

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Guest MaasNeotek

The profile of GeoCaching is what is getting us this attention, and I think it's important to start making some serious efforts to ensure that any communication of our game/sport includes an understanding of our own ecological concerns.


I have been fortunate enough to garner significant media in Canada for this pastime, and specifically commenting on the ecologically sound behaviours that make this sport safe for the environment never seem to make it to the presses. I will change that as soon as I am able.


I will be doing an interview this weekend with a major Canadian Newspaper, and additionally a spot on Global TV (National Television).


During this interview I would like to ensure that our activities both on and OFF camera include the Cache-in and Trash-out principles of safe wilderness use.


I can appreciate the concerns 'matt' has expressed, and understand his passion for making us 'realize' the potential impacts. However, his efforts may well be wasted. Many of us share those concerns, and indeed are vocal about them.


I hope Matt is also in touch with Subaru, Dodge, Kia, and all the other SUV/Jeep groups to ensure they know about the damage their owners do to the environment.


In short - Take care when you are out there, think about the locations you choose, and make sure that your visit and the 500 visits to follow won't damage the ecosystem. Take the time to educate those you introduce to the sport, and ensure that they understand the vital importance of our environment, and the impact their small trek can have.


Lastly, lets strive to live up to our words. Pay attention to our playground, or we won't get to show it to our grandchildren.





Building42 is at 55°32'182" N 113°29'49" W

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I noticed that Matthew said we are planting no new trees or erecting new mountains etc... I didn't know we built the Rockies but I could be mis-informed. As far as not planting trees, I am not sure where he has been. Paper companies plant tons of trees. Pretty good idea too if you ask me, they chop one down, plant a few more in its place, they want to make money so they keep their base product in supply by planting the trees that they weill chop down in 15-20 years. I just don't get into the environmental-wacko mentality. When I go in the woods, I don't litter, I just walk. I can't see how walking on ground is going to cause the end of the world as we know it, the ground is meant to be walked on. One of the first things I noticed on this site was the phrase, "casche in, trash out" how great is that, people go into the woods to enjoy nature, get some exercise have some fun and at the same time clean the area up. Where others simply walk in witha heavy backpack camp out a few days build a fire and become one with themselves. I think it's great when anyone wants to get out an d enjoy nature and the beauty of it all, but taken to extremes is simply silly and not necessary. When I start this hobby I plan on making sure that I leave it as I found it or better and to enjoy the outdoors as much as I can, and not worry about the people that believe their cliam to the land is any more important or justified as mine.

I will walk where I want to walk with the exception of large meat eating animals in my path or a farmer with a shotgun.


The KGB guy.gif

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