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Louise_Gerhard

Logging a waypoint in a log.

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For the last 3 months I have this question in my mind and maybe someone have the answer. If you arrive at a cache and you note that the cache waypoint is out by more than 6 meters; do you have the liberty to record the waypoint as found as part of your log; some cachers actually do this. I also observed that in some instances the cache owner selected the “incorrect” waypoint for a reason and he adapts his difficulty rating accordingly. The recording of the correct waypoint is then defeating the objective of the owner of the cache and it could be seen as a spoiler. Or is this a case of specifics – contact the owner requesting his permission to log the waypoint. Gerhard

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I really don't understand why cachers bother to log at all that the cache was 6m or 10 m out. If you combine the errors of the placement cacher's GPS and the finders GPS, it is highly likely that you will always get an error. In very rare cases and usually only if the two GPS's are exactly the same will you get the co-ords to be spot on. I would only write to the cacher if the co-ords were 25 m out and this is usually only with a FTF. It adds to the fun.

 

2c

 

:blink:

Edited by Noddy

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Logging your waypoint in a log can be read that you think the owners coords are wrong and yours are correct. As is stated by Noddy inaccuracies, different GPSrs and terrain can easity account for substantial discrepancies.

 

If I had quite a bit of trouble finding a cache and find it some distance off I might add "I found the cache 10 North from the posted coords" (possibly encrypted if it would compromise the situation). I find this more indirect and a future finder could use my log to steer the search in a direction if they have trouble finding it. This is a softer approach.

 

A typical situation is in a forest under a pile of sticks, where the whole forest is covered in piles of sticks. Reception is not good and the cache can be anywhere. If several finders also state that the coords are off in a certain direction, then it helps future finders.

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Logging your waypoint in a log can be read that you think the owners coords are wrong and yours are correct. As is stated by Noddy inaccuracies, different GPSrs and terrain can easity account for substantial discrepancies.

 

If I had quite a bit of trouble finding a cache and find it some distance off I might add "I found the cache 10 North from the posted coords" (possibly encrypted if it would compromise the situation). I find this more indirect and a future finder could use my log to steer the search in a direction if they have trouble finding it. This is a softer approach.

 

A typical situation is in a forest under a pile of sticks, where the whole forest is covered in piles of sticks. Reception is not good and the cache can be anywhere. If several finders also state that the coords are off in a certain direction, then it helps future finders.

 

Ditto, sums my feelings up.

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For the last 3 months I have this question in my mind and maybe someone have the answer. If you arrive at a cache and you note that the cache waypoint is out by more than 6 meters; do you have the liberty to record the waypoint as found as part of your log; some cachers actually do this. I also observed that in some instances the cache owner selected the “incorrect” waypoint for a reason and he adapts his difficulty rating accordingly. The recording of the correct waypoint is then defeating the objective of the owner of the cache and it could be seen as a spoiler. Or is this a case of specifics – contact the owner requesting his permission to log the waypoint. Gerhard

If the coords are off by, lets say more than 15 Meters, than you should add the corrected coordinates. 6 Meters is the pretty normal accuracy, which can add to 12 - 15 Meters, since in the worst case both inaccuracies (owner, and you) add up to this distance.

 

It really annoys me that some owners think it is funny to post wrong coordinates to increase the difficulty. In Germany there is a geocache which coordinates are 45 Meters of. Most of the finders log, that they only could find it due to reading the previous logs. The owner just doesn't care!

 

At least to me, that's not what geocaching is about. If you want to make it difficult, make a mystery geocache.

 

Just my 2 cents.

 

GermanSailor

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Just for interest's sake, and partly in response to the previous post - the practice of intentionally listing incorrect co-ords to make a cache more challenging can be fun for the cache owner (and very frustrating for those hunting it), but only up to the point of "acceptable GPS error".

 

Beyond "acceptable GPS error", that practice becomes a guidelines violation, and could result in the cache being archived.

This guideline says "The coordinates listed on the traditional cache page are the exact location of the cache."

 

For "acceptable GPS error", I use a maximum of 10m.

 

Regarding waypoints on logs - I wonder who actually sees or reads them...?

When I've thought it necessary, I've always emailed the cache owner about bad co-ords.

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Thanks to all for the quick reply. I think the method used by Pooks is a good one and should be acceptable and I will remember his method.

 

I save all my finds in GSAK in a separate database called “Caches found”. This database is maintained and is up to date. At regular intervals I do re-visit the logs and I do read all of them. Sometimes it does bring back good memories. During these reading sessions I noticed that some cachers are adding waypoints at certain caches and this is where the question originated from. But I received my answer.

 

I would like to do a GZ test at the next event if all agrees. Each cacher must show GZ and we pin it, the deviation should be interesting. I just hope that I am not the single cacher standing in the car park across the street. :blink: Maybe this year I must replace the one that I have. Thanks. Gerhard

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GPS is supposed to be accurate to within a few cm, but for us mere non-us-army-mortals, it is accurate to a few meters.

 

I also do think that co-ords should be a close as possible to the correct location, that is why we use a GPSr. If it could be off by many meters, then we should all start letterboxing.

 

If I get a co-ord update of a geocacher who has cached quite a bit, I will update to co-ords. If it is a newbie, then will monitor a few logs and then decide if i update or not.

 

When I was caching with my GPS enabled phone, the co-ords were often quite a bit off, that all seems to have changed now that I have a proper GPS.

 

I know Icenrey once did the test in Canada, in one of his videos, with a Garmin, and a Del<somthing-or-other> on a waymark spot. I think the Garmin was more accurate with *that* specific test.

 

@Gerhard: Yes, it will be interesting to see what GZ is at the next event (is the event on the 30th good with you?).

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I would like to do a GZ test at the next event if all agrees. Each cacher must show GZ and we pin it, the deviation should be interesting. I just hope that I am not the single cacher standing in the car park across the street. :P Maybe this year I must replace the one that I have. Thanks. Gerhard

Tried this out at my Camp & Cache event cache. Below are my comments and results.

 

Stake your Position. This was an interesting exercise and I could hardly contain myself, with all the various methods that were used to try achieve the goal. Some of the methods used included holding GPSr as high to the sky as possible, Hold a broom stick in the air, crawling along the ground, taking three steps back to try remove any interference. As you can see by the results, not one more than 3 meters out. I would say that's quite accurate.

 

1. iPajero 84cm

2. GC001 1.37.5m

3. Visvangers 1.40m

4. The Dobies 1.63m

5. iHilux 1.86m

6. Sunrise Crew 2.05m

7. Gel Team 2.30m

8. Boodad 2.64m

9. Melval 2.84m

10. Graps 2.91m

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To test your GPS try the following under various typical conditions - say under trees, in teh city between buildings and out in the open with a clearview of the sky:-

 

Your GPSwould need to have a proper log facility so that rules out a lot of car sat navs (Nuvis). Place your GPSr in one spot and record a log for an hour or more or less and then plot the track on a map just to see how your GPS has performed.

 

We would expect the more accurate and reliable your GPS is the less variation there will be!

 

Trev

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Anton,

Yes, we can try it at “2010 New years Bash”. I just need to convey our intentions to the event organisers. I always wanted to see the difference between the different GPS models and maybe I can select my next model. Talk about good logs. This is off topic but please read the log from “Visvangers” on the listing mentioned by iNokia. Gerhard

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Thanks to all for the quick reply. I think the method used by Pooks is a good one and should be acceptable and I will remember his method.

 

I save all my finds in GSAK in a separate database called “Caches found”. This database is maintained and is up to date. At regular intervals I do re-visit the logs and I do read all of them. Sometimes it does bring back good memories. During these reading sessions I noticed that some cachers are adding waypoints at certain caches and this is where the question originated from. But I received my answer.

 

I would like to do a GZ test at the next event if all agrees. Each cacher must show GZ and we pin it, the deviation should be interesting. I just hope that I am not the single cacher standing in the car park across the street. Maybe this year I must replace the one that I have. Thanks. Gerhard

 

Hi Gerhard.

 

This sounds like a very good idea.

 

I have always wondered how far a few Gps of different makes and models would deviate.

 

I will make sure to bring my Gps with to the 2010 New Years Bash event and we can put it to the test.

 

CJ

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