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Don't lean forward into the hill when walking up. Try to stay as upright as possible. It puts your center of gravity over your entire foot. If you lean too far into the hill only the front of your foot will be in contact with the ground. Going downhill its the opposite, tilt your shoulders forward a little to get your center of gravity over the feet.

How about an empty barrel at the top of a large hill. You have to stuff yourself inside and roll yourself down in order to log it as found. You also have to roll the barrel back up the hill to reset it. This could also tie in to a virtual.. say at the top of a large waterfall or cliff. Coyote Cache? Gravity Cache? It could use the Hospital icon currently used for the "needs maintenance" property. Shaun

Dowh ! ..ANOTHER one I drove right past before I joined GC. ! I also missed a chance to log GS0206 the last time I was in Death Valley - no gravity stations in my area ! We have not been to the gravity station in Death Valley yet. But, did you notice this???? HISTORY - Date Condition Recov. By GS0206 HISTORY - 1950 MONUMENTED CGS GS0206 HISTORY - 1943 GOOD NGS GS0206 HISTORY - 1967 GOOD LOCENG GS0206 HISTORY - 1969 GOOD CGS Monumented date - 1950 by CGS and then recovered in 1943 by the NGS - ? The other interesting thing for me, when I clicked nearest benchmark...PID=GS0908 and came up with this really interesting monument. Ernmark, it looks like you will just have to come back on a vacation to get all of these. Shirley~

How about just south o f Hawaii? The ocean is deep there (and water is less dense than rock therefore less gravitational pull since gravity is related to mass) also, the earth's diameter is bigger at the equator than at the poles, therefore one would be farther from the centre of gravity. Does this work?

Do you recall what type of kayak it was? I have seen some ghetto sit-on-tops that might perform as you describe. But those are the exception, not the rule. As to carrying gear, you might be surprised. Of my three boats, two, as I mentioned, are SOTs. The little one, (OK Drifter 12'), has the least storage/weight capacity, at about 500 pounds. The high back seat is very adjustable, allowing me to change my back position, and the foot scallops allow me to change my leg position. When I tire of sitting this way, I can kneel or stand, though since I have pretty poor coordination, standing often equates to splashing. It has a fairly large front hatch for dry storage, and a tank well in the back for wet storage. While assisting a caching friend with a puzzle hide, I lugged an ammo can, an 80 pound slap of concrete and a lamp post, several miles up a river, so I could hide it in a swamp. I've had that same boat so loaded with trash bags during CITOs that I could barely see over the top of them. My other SOT (OK Prowler Trident 15) is a dedicated fishing vessel, and has a slightly higher weight/storage capacity. (not sure why, as all I ever tote on it is fishing equipment) I haven't taken that one out on any clean ups, as it tracks too well for winding current. My hybrid boat (Native Ultimate 14.5) is closest to a canoe of all my vessels, though it lacks the tippy, rounded hull and high seating/high center of gravity of a canoe. This one is the easiest to stand in. Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to turn you against canoes. I used to love canoes, and paddled many over the years, of various lengths and price ranges. When I need to carry more than a few hundred pounds of gear, I will choose my hybrid every time, as it has all the storage of a 14' canoe, with none of the drawbacks of a canoe. I just don't think you should write off SOTs based on limited experience. The market has evolved considerably in just the last few years. (Yes, Virginia. A SOT is a boat, not a raft)

I see a lot of generalizations here and as in the case of generalizations, many are wrong. There are heavy and difficult to turn kayaks and light and easy to turn canoes. There are wide and slow kayaks and sleek and fast canoes. There are very stable canoes and "tippy" kayaks A whitewater canoe (like a Bell Ocoee) or Adirondack style canoe (like a Hornbeck) will turn circles around most recreational or tripping kayaks. You want light? Some Hornbeck canoes weigh as little as 12 lbs. I've been paddling canoes and kayaks since I was about 10, so that gives me roughly 44 years of experience. For much of that time I was borrowing my parent's boats or renting. When it came time for me to buy my own I went with a canoe because I found them to be more versatile. Here is my take on the pros and cons of each. Kayak pros -Low profile is superior to a canoe in wind -Decking combined with a skirt makes for a drier ride in whitewater, waves and on rainy days. -Generally speaking, kayaks are faster, but there are buts. A canoe meant for racing will blow away a rec kayak. However if you compare a kayak and a canoe that were designed for a similar purpose, the kayak will be faster. -Low center of gravity. -fairly comfortable paddling position Kayak cons -can be difficult to enter and exit -You're basically stuck in that one position all of the time. -retreiving gear from the storage areas usually requires that you pull ashore to do it. -they don't carry a lot. Need to bring a cooler? Forget that. -if you want to go with your husband you need two kayaks unless you buy a tandem kayak, but they are very difficult to handle solo. -leave the dog home unless you have a Chihuahua Canoe pros -easy in easy out -a variety of paddling positions, sitting, kneeling, legs out in front or underneath or even up on a thwart or the gunwales. -you can move around and even stand if you're careful. -Easy access to gear -You can carry a lot. Wanna bring the kids? The dog? A cooler? Go right ahead. -Most tandem canoes are easily paddled solo. -better view of the water and possible obstacles from a higher position. -easier to fish from -much more stable than people realize. Boats have primary and secondary stability. Primary is how "tippy" it feels, secondary is how difficult it is to actually tip over. Many canoes have a high secondary stability. Canoe cons -can be difficult to control when windy -A wet ride in whitewater, waves and on rainy days. A big wave can swamp you if you aren't careful. Bottom line is that you need to decide what your primary uses will be (camping? fishing? geocaching? tripping? birdwatching? fitness? whitewater? cruising? exploring?) whether you will be paddling alone or with friends and family and the type of water you'll usually be paddling. For me, when I considered all of that a canoe won hands down, but that's me. Some good names in kayaks are Wilderness Systems, Dagger, Perception, Hurricane, Swift, QCC and NC Some good names in canoes are We-No-Nah, Mad River, Old Town, Swift, Bell and Novacraft Stay way from anything Pelican, whether canoe or kayak. And I didn't even go into SINK vs SOT kayaks, that is a whole 'nother debate A very good resource is www.paddling.net. The forums there are filled with paddling knowledge and there are reviews of nearly any boat you may be considering.

All good points, but the reason that I didn't recommend a canoe vs. a kayak to the OP was that finding a canoe that is short enough to be paddled solo (assuming beginner level skills) and one that has room enough for two can be tricky. Actually, the same goes for a tandem kakak, which is the reason I suggested looking for two reasonable priced (possibly) used recreational or light touring kayaks. As a point of clarification, rolling a kayak (without leaving the cockpit) is not a beginner level skill. I know some sea kayakers that have been paddling for years and still don't know how to roll. On the other hand, I've taught a few people how to do it on the first day they were ever in a kayak. Most recreational class kayaks are very difficult to roll. They're specifically design to be stable (which means although they're harder to tip over, they're harder to roll back up) and the cockpits are often so big that you can't use your knees/legs to "drive" the boat back up. Someone that already has experience rolling can probably do it (I've done it, and have also rolled a 18 foot tandem kayak with a partner and a sit-on-top that was equipped with thigh straps). For flat water paddling it's more important to know how to exit a kayak after a capsize and to know how re-enter the kayak in deep water (with or without assistance). It's something I've taught to dozens of first time kayakers and something that should be practiced. I've gone out onto our local lake with a couple of friends when the wind has picked up and there are 2-3' waves and practiced "wet exits" and re-entries. "Twitchy" is a term that I've used often to describe advanced kayaks with low initial stability and I've paddled some models that I considered unnecessarily unstable. Paddling an advanced boat requires a more advanced skills called bracing (essentially using the flat part of the paddle blade to provide support while tilting the boat to one side. Leaning (or as it's more commonly called, "tilting" or "edging) a kayak makes it much easier to turn (due to the shape of the boat and a shorter water line) but in order to keep the boat "on edge" you need to know how to brace (the article I wrote for SeaKayaker magazine was on exercises one can do to improve high bracing skills). A "responsive" can be tilted to one side easily is also better in steep waves. A flat bottom recreational boat will tend to follow the face of the wave, and if the wave is steep enough, it can cause a capsize. A boat that can be tilted to one side can be leaned into the wave while your upper body remains vertical, keeping your center of gravity over the middle of the boat. A "responsive" boat can be tilted into a wave, then titled back the other direction as you go over the crest of the wave. A responsive boat is also much easier to roll. All that said, for geocaching purposes a decent quality recreational kayak or light touring boat in the 13-15 foot range, or a canoe, probably would be the best choice.

hmmm, don't go caching round here then as I have never seen one secured to anything, except the ground with gravity! and yes I am in the UK maybe my area is prone to rat trap theft? strange thing to take though if thats the case?

hmmm, don't go caching round here then as I have never seen one secured to anything, except the ground with gravity! and yes I am in the UK

The step up to the bottom horizontal of the bridge is just that, a single step up. If there was a second rung, and there isn't, you would hit your head on the bottom of the bridge. This is not a death defying climb. Check out this photo. The horizontal beam can be seen to the troll's right. This isn't the one you step up on, that is closer to the center of the creek. And the water is incredibly low in this shot. You can see the dam behind the troll, that is gone now. Seem the horizontal beam at the top? That is the height the cache is at. It is an easy slope to downward through very light brush to get to the creek. The water changes in depth a lot, depending on the rain. At its lowest you can just walk in and it won't cover your boots, at it's deepest, it is about 2 feet, below the knees for sure. Hey cache_test, you made me laugh, helps with the Sox game, thanks! The area has changed for the better but you pretty much have to get wet to get it now. Before the area was repaired you could walk across the natural dam. This was, in my opinion, harder, but drier. So the bulk of the finders have done the cache without wading. (Interestingly, some earlier finders, when the dam wasn't in place, chose to climb down from the top! Others built bridges out of dead trees.) The cache itself is pretty much out in the open, just sitting on the top horizontal timber. And yes, I probably am being too sensitive... Thanks for listening.

Either/or, John and/or Shirley. The gambling coin is good too! Maybe I'll figure out how to reglue the black rubber to my Etrex. As I warned you on the first contest: Challenging a Scorpio dolphin can be a dangerous thing, if the dolphin accepts the challenge. Pre-1950 disks is a good challenge. Finding USPSQD DNFs would be fun as well. Like shooting fish in a basket? Ooh, Buck. A gravity disk? Maybe when I get a metal detector, I'll be able to find the one I went looking for. If it's still there, it's buried on the south side of Brass Castle-Harmony Road. I only see a page for one other within 35 miles of here. Whenever I get back to Brooklyn! (I think that was a gravity disk, might have been another rare type.)

There are lots of interesting things going on behind the data sheets, a few of which a user might need to understand. Foremost of those would be the Orthometric Correction. As they processed leveling measurements decades ago (no GPS), they had to take into account the fact that perfect optical leveling around a loop of many miles will not close on itself. You need the orthometric correction to compensate for the variations in gravity. Working surveyors/engineers need to use that correction in their current work when a project has a large north-south extent or a large change in elevation. Furthermore, some theory behind what elevations mean is very relevant to understanding the current GRAV-D project that will end up, not with just more accurate vertical values, but a different kind of vertical datum. I found a tutorial that would be quite good if it didn't have so many confusions in it, like unlabeled changes in units, different symbols in the text and the equations, and a few misused terms. http://surveying.wb.psu.edu/sur351/Chapter6/c6-new.htm

I defy you to do it. I don't need to, since I know you're joking about defying me to do it. OK, how about now: I defy you to do it. <---(Note that no little winky guy is present) Defy me to do what? Find one quote in this thread where I said: P.S. That's what you said that I said but I never said it. So you said something that I said that I never said...

I defy you to do it. I don't need to, since I know you're joking about defying me to do it. OK, how about now: I defy you to do it. <---(Note that no little winky guy is present) Defy me to do what?

I defy you to do it. I don't need to, since I know you're joking about defying me to do it. OK, how about now: I defy you to do it. <---(Note that no little winky guy is present)

I defy you to do it. I don't need to, since I know you're joking about defying me to do it.

gh, I'll have to drive up one of these days to take on Death Defying, looks like fun! I don't know if any of mine are being ignored.

Easy. I first look at said puzzle, rule out the high terrain ones(due to no equipment for it/gravity is not my friend). Then it goes off into groups: Fun "Where am I?"s, "Puzzles for later", and "Uh, what?". Some of the ones that I think should be doable do turn out to have problems where what the owner wants is not sure, or only known to them. When I hit those, I take a quick look at other ones from the owner, and skip them, because they repeat the problems overall. This problem hits many multis here, too. As an example: You go to a location, and are asked "What company are you in front of?". Sounds overly simple, but here it can be a problem. For the example, I´ll use a bakery. On one sign, it says "Stadtbäckeri Blah", but is that the name, or is it StadtBäckeri/Konditorei Blah GmbH & Co Kg, as it stands on another smaller sign. There´s the first name problem. Now it goes further: is GmbH & Co Kg as it´s written, or the longer blah for the name. I´ve had problems where it wasn´t the short one, but listed so. And that´s only a small starting problem on something that´s meant as easy. And yes, the coordinates you pull from either comes out as logical when you attempt to go there. There was one with a picture in the field, that required you to count cows on it. The owner missed the fact that what appeared as one cow, was actually 2 standing near eachother, one with his head up, the other down. and that´s just a couple small problems that toss a mystery badly off. One of the last ones I did, was a bonus for another mystery. There was several problems, that weren´t the owner´s fault, but tossed it badly off until asking for help, which he answered. (Problem was changes to the park and playground which removed hints and changed them) Surprisingly, this problem goes away a bit when I go outside my homezone. If you've attempted the puzzles (in which case you didn't avoid them ), and they have obvious major flaws, maybe a Bookmark of the worst ones would be useful. What's a tactful bookmark name...? "Caches I'm Still Working On". Maybe. Or if you have vetted all of the puzzles in the area, make a public bookmark "These are good!" of just the unflawed puzzles. I could use that (for caches I intend to try). Some of the puzzles (as in your two-headed cow example) can be solved with some guessing. That does not make an elegant puzzle, and I don't like the flawed puzzles, but I have solved some of those. I even finished a couple of Multis with stages missing, by deducing coords. Then those Multis were soon archived.

Easy. I first look at said puzzle, rule out the high terrain ones(due to no equipment for it/gravity is not my friend). Then it goes off into groups: Fun "Where am I?"s, "Puzzles for later", and "Uh, what?". Some of the ones that I think should be doable do turn out to have problems where what the owner wants is not sure, or only known to them. When I hit those, I take a quick look at other ones from the owner, and skip them, because they repeat the problems overall. This problem hits many multis here, too. As an example: You go to a location, and are asked "What company are you in front of?". Sounds overly simple, but here it can be a problem. For the example, I´ll use a bakery. On one sign, it says "Stadtbäckeri Blah", but is that the name, or is it StadtBäckeri/Konditorei Blah GmbH & Co Kg, as it stands on another smaller sign. There´s the first name problem. Now it goes further: is GmbH & Co Kg as it´s written, or the longer blah for the name. I´ve had problems where it wasn´t the short one, but listed so. And that´s only a small starting problem on something that´s meant as easy. And yes, the coordinates you pull from either comes out as logical when you attempt to go there. There was one with a picture in the field, that required you to count cows on it. The owner missed the fact that what appeared as one cow, was actually 2 standing near eachother, one with his head up, the other down. and that´s just a couple small problems that toss a mystery badly off. One of the last ones I did, was a bonus for another mystery. There was several problems, that weren´t the owner´s fault, but tossed it badly off until asking for help, which he answered. (Problem was changes to the park and playground which removed hints and changed them) Surprisingly, this problem goes away a bit when I go outside my homezone.

I am only now starting to slowly learn about CORS stations. Researching in my area, I came across what I think is alot of people claiming a find on ORONO CORS ARP, AF9645 . It would appear to me that everyone is claiming the find but that it is a non NGS recognized Gravity Control Station. The NGS site clearly locates an antenna as the observation point. No one making the claim seems to be from these forums or has filed with the NGS site. But I do hope that anyone here that reads this will not make the same mistake. I am adding a note as such to the GC page. EDIT NOTE: Corrected Gravity Control Station as the mark being found.

You may want to browse Geodesy for the Layman Bill, the surface of a lake or ocean is not flat (or spherical). Even in the absence of waves or air pressure, it has peaks and valleys due to gravity anomalies. Refer to the picture below. The curve labeled GEOID represents the surface of the ocean. Imagine you want to determine the elevation of the point at the intersection of the dashed line labeled NORMAL TO ELLIPSOID and the solid line labeled NORMAL TO GEOID. Call this point X. Lets call the base of the letter P in the word ELLIPSOID above the MASS DEFICIENCY point P, and assume it is 100 meters. Lets call the base of the letter O in the word GEOID above the MASS SURPLUS point O. Its elevation is 0(zero) since it is at sea level. What is the measured elevation of point X? From point P, can't you see that X appears to be well above sea level? From point O, X appears to be below sea level. From point X, O appears to be below sea level. A closed loop would not yield a zero net elevation change. I am not a geodesist, but I believe you are right. I don't know how much error is introduced per mile in a typical survey due to gravity anomalies.

It's true that most Garmin units puts a timestamp in the comment field when a waypoint is saved. I don't know specifically why Garmin does this, but I suppose it's just a convienence for the user. Any program that implements the Garmin Protocol (like RoboGEO) must adhere to it and the protocol forbids treating the waypoint comment field as a date. There are also practical issues like the date being written in whatever language is configured for the GPS unit and the fact that the comment field is editable. You just can't do it. Well, let me rephrase that - a program "could" do it if it implemented a nasty hack to deal with the language issue and if it was willing to tug on Superman's cape (Garmin) by defying their protocol. Tim Helton

Robbed of what? Robbed is not the best word to use here. It's hard for me to explain what i mean exactly but i'm sure there may be some who understand. I, and i don't think i'm the only one, like the feeling of accomplishment i have after figuring out and finding a challenging cache. Seeing my name on that short list of found logs is something i would feel good about now, and for the life of the cache. For me, this feeling would begin to diminish if too many find logs started coming in from people i knew who were only able to get the cache because they were given coordinates by someone else. Yeah, i know what i accomplished and that's the main thing that should count. I also realize this is small potatoes compared to other important things in life. But in a social game/sport/hobby such as this, i also know that my accomplishment (the found log on that hard cache) would not look quite the same if it was on a page full of other found logs. I think, in the context used, "Robbed" is the word you were looking for. If I understand your theory, assuming we both log finds on the cache in the space station; Let's say you got your visa up to date, trained for months for zero gravity environment work, travelled to Russia, paid the requisite 10 million dollar fee and got a ride on the earliest rocket. Once at the space station, you searched till you found the cache, signed the log, got the crew to take lots of pictures, then headed home, posting your find at the earliest opportunity. While I met with a crew member of the rocket which carried the cache to the space station, sneaking my moniker into the logbook before it ever launched, claiming my find. You feel that your log has a certain value, and that my log would somehow diminish that value, without your consent. Robbery seems like a valid phrase to describe such an act. I just don't see it that way. From my perspective, had the two finds been reversed, your easy-peasy log would in no way lessen the experience I had in making the actual trip and finding the cache as intended. Since the experience is not reduced, and my smiley count is not reduced, I can't view your actions as having taken anything from me. I'm not suggesting that your view is wrong. It isn't. It just isn't my view. Nothing you do can change the experience I had finding a cache.

Er zijn enkele opties: Indien het caches zijn die voor een event bedoeld zijn, HOLD"naam event" cachenaam. Als wij de caches zo binnenkrijgen kunnen we een saturatiecheck doen en de eventuele opmerking overmaken na een eerste screening. Indien het een reeks is die niet voor een event bedoeld is, zet je gewoon in de reviewernote de gewenste publicatiedatum en de vermelding dat de reeks in zijn geheel moet gepublished worden. Wat we dan ook doen is als er in een van de caches een probleem is we de hele reeks disable zo dat er zeker geen losse caches gepublished worden. Als alles dan in orde is bied je ze gewoon terug aan ter review en doen wij de integrale publish. Hopende je hier een afdoend antwoord geven te hebben groeten we je George Gravitalis Geo-Gravity Groundspeak Volunteer Reviewer voor Nederland en Vlaanderen

GoldBugGirl and Gatoulis, Both of you did great in figuring out my coin's message, so you will both be getting a free coin when they are done! I will contact you when they are ready. Here is my explanation: Front - The word at the top is "Habakkuk" written in Hebrew. The building is the Great Ziggurat and represents the Babylonian Empire. The background image is a war horse and a chariot wheel representing the Babylonian war machine. The text is from the first chapter of Habakkuk and is perhaps as relevant today as it was when it was first written. The idea in Habakkuk is that the the people of Judea and Jerusalem had become unjust and cruel. The Babylonians were used by God as a tool to bring an end to the corrupt Judean government. Back - This side of the coin shows a heart and feather being weighed on a scale. This imagery is well known from the Egyptian concept of judgement in which the heart of a person is weighed against the feather of Maat (truth). The balance shows that the person (most likely an influential citizen of Jerusalem) is weighed down with sin. The imagery also comes from the book of Daniel in which the king is told "You have been weighed on the scales and found wanting." The text at the bottom says "sun and moon stood still in the heavens." The top of the scale shows the sun and the moon in an eclipse to give gravity to God's judgement. The text in the background is from Habakkuk chapter 3. I chose to make this coin simply because almost no one would ever choose to feature the book of Habakkuk in anything. I just wanted to breath new life into a neglected passage from literature. In truth, I don't expect the average person to have any idea of what the words and images mean, I want a person holding it to find it compelling and mysterious. The text on the front is meant to be ambiguous, but giving a sense of expectation. There were some hold-ups in getting this coin minted, but now it seems to be going forward.