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I have updated my little graph, and unfortunately, I still can't figure out how to paste it here for all to view. Just some "gee whiz" things for all of you to ponder: 1. The last time we had a single-digit cache placement week was the week of May 20th. 2. We have placed 20 or more caches in a week FIVE times. 3. Since the last time there were NO caches placed in a week, (the first week of February) we have averaged 11.16 caches per week. 4. The week of July 8 - 15 (Rendezvous Week) there were 30 caches placed. No small thanks to Junkyard Dog, who I know placed at least 4 nice ones that week. 5. It took us 8 months to break the 100 barrier, then 6 weeks to get to 200. If we stay on pace, we will hit 300 by next weekend, and that will have taken 5 weeks. 6. There are 286 caches in Utah as of this writing on 7/28/01. 7. We are SMOKING everyone with one cache per every 7,808 people in our state. The next closest is Oregon with one cache per 16,292 people. 8. We have a 15% average weekly growth rate since the first cache was placed in Utah by Leaper64 last September. 9. The curve is looking strikingly similar to a bacteria population chart, that is, it appears to be exponential, kind of. Let's hope it tapers off somewhere along the way, or we'll be tripping over each other's caches. 10. If I had to pick a number, 20 seems to be the typical week for us. I think that on my BEST week hunting, I only managed to bag 18, so I don't think I will try to find all the Utah caches. Anyway, there is the data, FWIW.

put your cache where you want and them shoot compass bearings back to a spot where your reception is good. Then mark your good spot as the cache with a compass bearing offset; I.E. 270 feet at 200 degrees or something along that line. TTFN

-line cache logs for more than a few caches, you'll understand that everything is not always perfect. One thing that you will see is finders posting revised coordinates, saying that the original poster was off by several, or evcen quite a few, thousandths. That might make the 20 foot circle into a 200 foot circle. All this is to say that your GPS *should* get you very near the cache, but your mileage may vary. A pretty common recommendation is that you carry a decent compass as well as the GPS. When you get close, use the GPS to get bearing and distance, use the compass to know which way to walk, and count paces.

My ancient Garmin GPS 38 is on its death bed and I've got 200 waypoints stored in it. I'd like to move them to my PC, but I don't have a cable for it and I really don't want to spend $35-40 on a cable I'll only use once. Is there anyone in San Diego with a suitable cable that can help me?

Our costs thus far... GPS (Lowrance GlobalNav 12) $30 (bought it off a co-worker) Batteries (unit eats 4 batts a trip (at least)) $3 a trip (rayovac maximum) 1/2 case of Water (6 bottles) per trip $1.25 (Wal-mart 2 cases for $5) Signature Items (10) $1.49 each Gas for the 200+ mile round trip (each trip) $15 a trip assorted band-aids and first aid creme $0 (stole them from work!!) assorted replacment supplies (per trip) $5 total cost per trip approx $25.00 number of trips so far 3 caches found 13 caches tried 16 total cost to date $75 approx. total cost per cache $ 4.69 time spent with wife $ priceless

Our costs thus far... GPS (Lowrance GlobalNav 12) $30 (bought it off a co-worker) Batteries (unit eats 4 batts a trip (at least)) $3 a trip (rayovac maximum) 1/2 case of Water (6 bottles) per trip $1.25 (Wal-mart 2 cases for $5) Signature Items (10) $1.49 each Gas for the 200+ mile round trip (each trip) $15 a trip assorted band-aids and first aid creme $0 (stole them from work!!) assorted replacment supplies (per trip) $5 total cost per trip approx $25.00 number of trips so far 3 caches found 13 caches tried 16 total cost to date $75 approx. total cost per cache $ 4.69 time spent with wife $ priceless

Jeremy said: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mild winters, late summer sunsets, and small population make it a great place to live. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ARE YOU NUTS?..... I kept looking for the smiley face, the wink, the "my brain is scrambled" icon..... If Seattle (Belleview, Issaquah, Somamish, etc. is SMALL POPULATION, then I'm a lightweight (all 330 lbs). When I visit J&M it takes me 35 min to get to I-90 (all 2.1 miles of it). Take a trip to North Dakota or New Mexico, now that's "small population". Sugar and I drove 200+ miles across the Plain of St. Agustine in southern NM and we passed one car and met two. aaaahhhh blissful solitude! [This message has been edited by Sluggo (edited 25 July 2001).]

Jeremy said: ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Mild winters, late summer sunsets, and small population make it a great place to live. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ARE YOU NUTS?..... I kept looking for the smiley face, the wink, the "my brain is scrambled" icon..... If Seattle (Belleview, Issaquah, Somamish, etc. is SMALL POPULATION, then I'm a lightweight (all 330 lbs). When I visit J&M it takes me 35 min to get to I-90 (all 2.1 miles of it). Take a trip to North Dakota or New Mexico, now that's "small population". Sugar and I drove 200+ miles across the Plain of St. Agustine in southern NM and we passed one car and met two. aaaahhhh blissful solitude! [This message has been edited by Sluggo (edited 25 July 2001).]

You might want to take a look at the software that others have put out for the home GPS user. www.expertgps.com www.easygps.com (free-like-beer) As another programmer who has thought about this, here's some of the requirements that have come to mind. You want a cheap (maybe free) product, that will add functionality that isn't practical inside the GPSR itself, such as larger, more detailed maps, automatic navigation, etc. You want the application to be lightweight engough that it will run on older hardware. (A lot of people might pick up an old pentium laptop just to take geocaching with them, but they won't take one that is worth more than $200, since there is a good chance it's not coming back in one piece. So, the code should run on old hardware with only 16 or 32 MB of RAM. I think 500MB, or maybe a CDROM's worth of data should be the most it will take up on disk, and most of that should be map data rather than code. ExpertGPS does a very good job at fetching and caching MAP data from online sources, but currently doesn't fetch shapefiles or allow you to navigate. It might seem like a good idea to use a haldheld like a Palm or an iPaq, but there are several problems I see: 1) There isn't a good interface standard between these units and peripherals, making it a thorny problem. 2) The units typically don't have much more processing power or memory than the GPSR itself, and this means that it can't handle signigicantly larger problems than the GPSR itself can. About the only advantage that I can see is that most handhelds have a slightly higher resolution screen, but given above problems, I don't think it's worth the trouble... and others already have done the work. There is some good GPS software out for the Palm, et. al. Anybody else have some bright ideas? -- Mitch [This message has been edited by PneumaticDeath (edited 25 July 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by AngstMonger:I had this problem recently with my Summit. After putzing around with it, I found I could duplicate the problem. Here was the situation for me. I had created and activated a route comprising 50 waypoints (the maximum)... When on the Map Page, I could make the unit shut off without fail by downsizing the Map Scale to 200 feet (the minimum). I'm not sure what the exact combination of factors is that results in the shutdown, but as I said, I could force it to do so every time. I haven't had the problem at all otherwise. I have emailed Garmin tech support, but have yet to hear from them. Just a warning, Garmin tech support takes forever to get around to answering e-mail. I sent in a question for them (about the problem that I had here with the Venture turning off) and it took them 2.5 weeks to get back to me. ------------------ -Iron Chef _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ agefive.com/geocache/ ~ Fe-26 Lets Drive Fast and Eat Cheese!

A pirate, 200 years too late...

nd 200 and didn't place 1, I don't mind. It takes all types. That being said, I would like to see a stat for total contribution - who placed the most. Probably someone in Utah GEOCACHER # OF CACHES # OF CACHES HIDDEN erik 138 *none found for Erik, 2 found for Eric GLNash 119 *none found wtmrn 115 6 Gumby & Pokey 115 *none found bunkerdave 108 7 denali 105 3 JoA 100 *none found Hasbro 89 4 bent_twigs 87 *none found erik88l-r 85 2 KF Quad Explorer 83 17 Wow! hunt4elk 77 3 AndiM 66 2 stayfloopy 66 1 HFJohn 63 1 kkbean 61 10 smcginnis 60 8 jaw2925 60 10 Bufford 60 13 Hillwilly 60 33 Holy cow! *None found does not necessarily mean that they haven't placed any. The user may have simply used a different "byline". I searched only on the user names as entered here, no variations. Feel free to follow up to set the record straight.

nd 200 and didn't place 1, I don't mind. It takes all types. That being said, I would like to see a stat for total contribution - who placed the most. Probably someone in Utah GEOCACHER # OF CACHES # OF CACHES HIDDEN erik 138 *none found for Erik, 2 found for Eric GLNash 119 *none found wtmrn 115 6 Gumby & Pokey 115 *none found bunkerdave 108 7 denali 105 3 JoA 100 *none found Hasbro 89 4 bent_twigs 87 *none found erik88l-r 85 2 KF Quad Explorer 83 17 Wow! hunt4elk 77 3 AndiM 66 2 stayfloopy 66 1 HFJohn 63 1 kkbean 61 10 smcginnis 60 8 jaw2925 60 10 Bufford 60 13 Hillwilly 60 33 Holy cow! *None found does not necessarily mean that they haven't placed any. The user may have simply used a different "byline". I searched only on the user names as entered here, no variations. Feel free to follow up to set the record straight.

I had this problem recently with my Summit. After putzing around with it, I found I could duplicate the problem. Here was the situation for me. I had created and activated a route comprising 50 waypoints (the maximum)... When on the Map Page, I could make the unit shut off without fail by downsizing the Map Scale to 200 feet (the minimum). I'm not sure what the exact combination of factors is that results in the shutdown, but as I said, I could force it to do so every time. I haven't had the problem at all otherwise. I have emailed Garmin tech support, but have yet to hear from them.

Here is the updated stats as of July 18th: I included last weeks rankings as well. 1 cache for everyRank Last State Population Caches this many people---- ---- ------------- ---------- ----- ------1 1 Utah 2,233,169 266 8,3952 2 Oregon 3,421,399 202 16,9383 3 Idaho 1,293,953 49 26,4074 4 Alaska 626,932 22 28,4975 5 Wyoming 493,782 15 32,9196 6 Washington 5,894,121 156 37,7837 7 Montana 902,195 23 39,2268 9 Arizona 5,130,632 110 46,6429 8 Nevada 1,998,257 41 48,73810 10 Missouri 5,595,211 111 50,40711 11 New Mexico 1,819,046 30 60,63512 13 Kansas 2,688,418 43 62,52113 12 California 33,871,648 535 63,31114 14 Massachusetts 6,349,097 90 70,54615 16 Delaware 783,600 11 71,23616 15 Colorado 4,301,261 60 71,68817 29 New Hampshire 1,235,786 16 77,23718 18 New York 18,976,457 240 79,06919 17 Maine 1,274,923 15 84,99520 21 Michigan 9,938,444 115 86,42121 19 Hawaii 1,211,537 14 86,53822 20 North Carolina 8,049,313 87 92,52123 24 Maryland 5,296,486 57 92,92124 23 Pennsylvania 12,281,054 131 93,74925 22 Vermont 608,827 6 101,47126 25 Arkansas 2,673,400 26 102,82327 30 Wisconsin 5,363,675 52 103,14828 27 Georgia 8,186,453 78 104,95529 26 South Dakota 754,844 7 107,83530 28 South Carolina 4,012,012 35 114,62931 33 Texas 20,851,820 175 119,15332 31 Illinois 12,419,293 100 124,19333 32 North Dakota 642,200 5 128,44034 34 Tennessee 5,689,283 40 142,23235 37 Oklahoma 3,450,654 24 143,77736 38 Iowa 2,926,324 20 146,31637 35 Ohio 11,353,140 76 149,38338 39 Rhode Island 1,048,319 7 149,76039 36 Nebraska 1,711,263 11 155,56940 41 Mississippi 2,844,658 18 158,03741 42 Kentucky 4,041,769 23 175,72942 40 Minnesota 4,919,479 27 182,20343 43 Connecticut 3,405,565 18 189,19844 45 Indiana 6,080,485 32 190,01545 44 Virginia 7,078,515 37 191,31146 46 West Virginia 1,808,344 8 226,04347 48 New Jersey 8,414,350 36 233,73248 47 Florida 15,982,378 62 257,78049 49 Washington DC 572,059 2 286,03050 50 Louisiana 4,468,976 12 372,41551 51 Alabama 4,447,100 10 444,710

s 2,688,418 43 62,521 13 12 California 33,871,648 535 63,311 14 14 Massachusetts 6,349,097 90 70,546 15 16 Delaware 783,600 11 71,236 16 15 Colorado 4,301,261 60 71,688 17 29 New Hampshire 1,235,786 16 77,237 18 18 New York 18,976,457 240 79,069 19 17 Maine 1,274,923 15 84,995 20 21 Michigan 9,938,444 115 86,421 21 19 Hawaii 1,211,537 14 86,538 22 20 North Carolina 8,049,313 87 92,521 23 24 Maryland 5,296,486 57 92,921 24 23 Pennsylvania 12,281,054 131 93,749 25 22 Vermont 608,827 6 101,471 26 25 Arkansas 2,673,400 26 102,823 27 30 Wisconsin 5,363,675 52 103,148 28 27 Georgia 8,186,453 78 104,955 29 26 South Dakota 754,844 7 107,835 30 28 South Carolina 4,012,012 35 114,629 31 33 Texas 20,851,820 175 119,153 32 31 Illinois 12,419,293 100 124,193 33 32 North Dakota 642,200 5 128,440 34 34 Tennessee 5,689,283 40 142,232 35 37 Oklahoma 3,450,654 24 143,777 36 38 Iowa 2,926,324 20 146,316 37 35 Ohio 11,353,140 76 149,383 38 39 Rhode Island 1,048,319 7 149,760 39 36 Nebraska 1,711,263 11 155,569 40 41 Mississippi 2,844,658 18 158,037 41 42 Kentucky 4,041,769 23 175,729 42 40 Minnesota 4,919,479 27 182,203 43 43 Connecticut 3,405,565 18 189,198 44 45 Indiana 6,080,485 32 190,015 45 44 Virginia 7,078,515 37 191,311 46 46 West Virginia 1,808,344 8 226,043 47 48 New Jersey 8,414,350 36 233,732 48 47 Florida 15,982,378 62 257,780 49 49 Washington DC 572,059 2 286,030 50 50 Louisiana 4,468,976 12 372,415 51 51 Alabama 4,447,100 10 444,710

Lowrance Globalnav 200

Took us 9 hours to climb to Zeus's Roost on 7/8. That's round trip, from the trailhead. About a 6.5 mile hike, and about a 4,200 foot ascent. There is another cache about halfway - Lower Zeus, so it's a two-fer.

I'm with Emrldjetta on this one as the Magellan units have much better antennas. So pretty much it is a choice of whether you want better reception (Magellans and expensive Garmins) or some extra little features (Garmin). Although you can still find old Garmin GPS-II+ units out there for sub-200 USD that have a quadrifilar antenna and all the traditional gps features. ------------------ -Iron Chef _ _ _ _ _ _____ _ _ _ _ _ agefive.com/geocache/ ~ Fe-26 Lets Drive Fast and Eat Cheese!

Another thing for you to consider is the Area you live in. Do you live in an area with heavy tree coverage? this is Important in your gps choice as many etrex perform poorly in heavy tree cover due to sat loss. I have tested several units on my own as well as with friends and have found that units with a quadrifilar Antenna perform much better at holding sat locks than the units with the base unit system. Go one step better and look for a GPS that will allow you to add an external Antenna then all your upgrade troubles and questions will be in your past. Garmin's IIIPlus as well as the map76 or the gps76 which is the same as the map76 except you dont have the mapping function are great units with powerful antennas built into them, and if this isnt enough for you just use the external antenna jack and plug a external antenna into it for more reliability. the gps76 goes for around 200. the map76 around 315. and the IIIPlus around 280. check around for prices to get the lowest, but you can also find them at nice prieces on www.advancedgps.com Tell them you saw it here and point credit in Jeremy's direction! ------------------ Quinn Stone Rochester, NY.14616 www.Navicache.com

I just recently took a trip across Alberta, and found my first 8 caches. I did not use paper maps because I have a laptop computer and a 12VDC-110VAC converter in my car. I use the program Ozi Explorer, and have digital maps for all of Alberta. The program interfaces with the GPS unit I have(reads NMEA output from the GPS) and will show my location on the screen as I travel. The maps are calibrated and read correctly 99% of the time. For instance, if I change lanes on the fourway between Edmonton and Calgary it will actual show the move on the map. The greatest thing about this software though is the unlimited waypoints, routes, tracks etc. you can access. It becomes your data base. It's only limit is the size of your hard drive. If you think laptops are expensive try Ebay, you would not believe how many are listed there. To use software like this does not require a full blown game machine, a one year old computer (PII, 8gig HD, CD-ROM) can go for less than $200 american. [This message has been edited by DungeonKeeper (edited 07 July 2001).]

Kev - Thank you for your post. I found that one, and took the can of Pepsi. While I appreciated the Pepsi, even warm, I shudder to think of the damage IT would have caused. On the other, much more pressing subject. If there is in fact a vandal with a GPS among us, he or she has easy pickings all over SLC. I have maintained and ever will do so, that there is no SURE way to prevent this. The game depends on the integrity of its players. In time, it is probable that we all will have a cache plundered, and the only thiung we can really hope for is that we will find out about it quickly and either archive or replace the cache. I have had only one experience with this. In May, I went to the First Cache County cache, and it was in total disarray. I found the container, and one of the contents. No log, and nothing else. I had come all that way, and was determined to get a find, so I filled the cache with some of my trading items, put in a new log, and signed that I found it. A few people have found it since then, but it has been awhile, so I wonder how it is doing. Anyway, my point in this story is not to beat my chest or anything, but to illustrate that for this game to remain viable and enjoyable, we have to be "good citizens." Again, not to brag, but more than once I have filled caches with stuff I had to trade, just because the cache contents were either pitiful or non-existent. Usually these were older caches which had been depleted by unequal trading, which is what this thread is all about. I am not wealthy by any definition; most of you probably earn more than I do in a year. It makes a little bit of a dent in my wallet, too, to try and place nice items in a cache. Because of this, I appreciate it even more when I see the generosity shown by the contents of some of your caches. I was at a cache a little while ago that was obviously placed there by a young girl. The penmanship in the log book was a giveaway - not sloppy, but you know how kids write - just looks like they are trying really hard. The contents were about as good as any I had seen in most caches, and it showed a lot of effort and thought went into it. It reminds me a little of the widow's mite parable in the Bible, and it actually touched me. I happened to have a pretty good (I thought) cache in my car ready to go, so I took most of the best stuff, what would fit, as the cache was pretty small. and put it in there. I did take an item, though. If any of you have tears in your eyes by now, you know now why I love this game the way I do. It really does have tremendous potential to bring people together. Families, friends, and complete strangers. Hunt4Elk just told me how a number of people have asked to join us on our Zeus's Roost hike, and I could not be more excited. We are so completely removed from other people in our lives. We travel in steel cages at a mile a minute, and never have to see a soul we don't want to see. With all our technology for communication, we never talk to anyone unless we have to. Most people talk to less than 20 people per day for more than a minute. Back to the point: This sport DEPENDS on all of us giving more than we get. If everyone took more from caches than they received, which would also mean no one ever placed a cache, because that is, by its very nature, a donation, how long would this game last? This also reduces the concern over plundered caches greatly, because even if the entire cache is taken, the next person who tries to find it will at least inform the owner, who can take action. At best, the person who finds the plundered/missing cache will have one ready to go, and will just replace it. (This is a lot to ask, but it happens all the time). There are enough of us that one clown looting caches is not going to loot us out of this game. The only way that will happen is if no one places any more. In Utah, we have over 200 caches. It took me over two months of ambitious caching to find half that many. Enough said? It is entirely reasonale to think there will be over 300 here by year end, assuming things REALLY slow down this fall/winter. It is truly a bummer when a cache is raided, but that's all it is. All you can do is dust for fingerprints, call the FBI for a match, "ask Jeeves" for the dirty @#$%'s address and place a flaming "cache" of dog ______ on the perpetrator's porch. Or you could forget about it and get on with your life. Not my place to tell you how to deal with anger. I'm an accountant, not a therapist. (that's my wife, lucky for me) Well, this has been long, but it's been fun...for me at least. With those thoughts, let's all have BIG group hug and sing "Kum-ba-yah." Amen. ------------------ David Wallentine dwallent34@yahoo.com

Kev - Thank you for your post. I found that one, and took the can of Pepsi. While I appreciated the Pepsi, even warm, I shudder to think of the damage IT would have caused. On the other, much more pressing subject. If there is in fact a vandal with a GPS among us, he or she has easy pickings all over SLC. I have maintained and ever will do so, that there is no SURE way to prevent this. The game depends on the integrity of its players. In time, it is probable that we all will have a cache plundered, and the only thiung we can really hope for is that we will find out about it quickly and either archive or replace the cache. I have had only one experience with this. In May, I went to the First Cache County cache, and it was in total disarray. I found the container, and one of the contents. No log, and nothing else. I had come all that way, and was determined to get a find, so I filled the cache with some of my trading items, put in a new log, and signed that I found it. A few people have found it since then, but it has been awhile, so I wonder how it is doing. Anyway, my point in this story is not to beat my chest or anything, but to illustrate that for this game to remain viable and enjoyable, we have to be "good citizens." Again, not to brag, but more than once I have filled caches with stuff I had to trade, just because the cache contents were either pitiful or non-existent. Usually these were older caches which had been depleted by unequal trading, which is what this thread is all about. I am not wealthy by any definition; most of you probably earn more than I do in a year. It makes a little bit of a dent in my wallet, too, to try and place nice items in a cache. Because of this, I appreciate it even more when I see the generosity shown by the contents of some of your caches. I was at a cache a little while ago that was obviously placed there by a young girl. The penmanship in the log book was a giveaway - not sloppy, but you know how kids write - just looks like they are trying really hard. The contents were about as good as any I had seen in most caches, and it showed a lot of effort and thought went into it. It reminds me a little of the widow's mite parable in the Bible, and it actually touched me. I happened to have a pretty good (I thought) cache in my car ready to go, so I took most of the best stuff, what would fit, as the cache was pretty small. and put it in there. I did take an item, though. If any of you have tears in your eyes by now, you know now why I love this game the way I do. It really does have tremendous potential to bring people together. Families, friends, and complete strangers. Hunt4Elk just told me how a number of people have asked to join us on our Zeus's Roost hike, and I could not be more excited. We are so completely removed from other people in our lives. We travel in steel cages at a mile a minute, and never have to see a soul we don't want to see. With all our technology for communication, we never talk to anyone unless we have to. Most people talk to less than 20 people per day for more than a minute. Back to the point: This sport DEPENDS on all of us giving more than we get. If everyone took more from caches than they received, which would also mean no one ever placed a cache, because that is, by its very nature, a donation, how long would this game last? This also reduces the concern over plundered caches greatly, because even if the entire cache is taken, the next person who tries to find it will at least inform the owner, who can take action. At best, the person who finds the plundered/missing cache will have one ready to go, and will just replace it. (This is a lot to ask, but it happens all the time). There are enough of us that one clown looting caches is not going to loot us out of this game. The only way that will happen is if no one places any more. In Utah, we have over 200 caches. It took me over two months of ambitious caching to find half that many. Enough said? It is entirely reasonale to think there will be over 300 here by year end, assuming things REALLY slow down this fall/winter. It is truly a bummer when a cache is raided, but that's all it is. All you can do is dust for fingerprints, call the FBI for a match, "ask Jeeves" for the dirty @#$%'s address and place a flaming "cache" of dog ______ on the perpetrator's porch. Or you could forget about it and get on with your life. Not my place to tell you how to deal with anger. I'm an accountant, not a therapist. (that's my wife, lucky for me) Well, this has been long, but it's been fun...for me at least. With those thoughts, let's all have BIG group hug and sing "Kum-ba-yah." Amen. ------------------ David Wallentine dwallent34@yahoo.com

I am in the process of buying my first GPS unit and had some questions. I am looking at the Venture($150 shipped). 1- How is and what is the base map that is programed into this unit? 2- What do they mean that I can download points of interest intoo the unit? And where is this info at?(which CD?) 3- How far off shore will this unit work? I go on party boats to fish all the time and was wondering where we stop at. We don't really go out to far. we are usually very close to land. 4- Also how is the unit for driving? What feture is in this unit for driving? %- I will be using this unit for Geocaching, MTBing and some light hiking. Also to see where the fishing spots are when we go out on party boats. So is this unit right unit for me for under $200 bucks. This will be my first unit. I really thought that for $30-$50 more than the base model if this would be a good deal for me. A little more fetures that I can really take advantage of. THANX FOR YOUR HELPS FOLKS. Any info or advice will be gladly taken. THANX AGAIN

gged on the web site. It IS possible that some non-cacher has taken the money and of course not logged at the cache site. I often take the cash I see, but I also log it as having been taken (both at cache site and web site). One cache I went to (Geo-Ca$h) was nothing BUT money. There was a $5 bill and a $1 bill, a bag of pennies (about 200 I think) and a lot of foreign currency. I was the first one at the site and took the $5 bill and left a silver jewelry box. Not totally in keeping with the theme, but close enough. It was real silver and the perfect size for holding a silver dollar. Anyway, I think we all know that people are going to do what they are going to do and no matter what we say, not many of them will change. The value for us saying these things is getting it off our chest and hoping for the best. I also wonder if the explosion of caches in Utah has not contributed to this phenomenon? I seem to remember reading that people are placing them in empty fields outside their office buildings so they can watch the hunt. If this is true, it may be a contributing factor to the "trash" quality of some of the caches. Also, when one finds 100 or so caches, the "trash" factor has to be seen as a logical extension of what you will run into...quality and junk. All of the above is my humble opinion and not handed down on stone tablets. Ron 24H/26/F/1C/4S/3X [This message has been edited by Ron Streeter (edited 04 July 2001).]