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Here's a question/answer from the Kodak web site regarding their cameras and extreme temps. Q: I've heard it's a good idea to keep a one-time-use camera in the glove compartment of my car in case of emergencies. Won't the extreme temperatures hurt it? A: The interior of a vehicle can be a very hostile environment for both photographic film and for cameras. Frigid conditions alone will not necessarily cause harm to film. Some of the difficulties that might be encountered when photographing with a one-time use camera which has been kept in a car under sub-zero temperatures include: brittle film tearing, film advance mechanism failing, shutter sticking or failing, and flash performing poorly because of weak energy delivery from frozen batteries. In the summer, temperatures inside a car can easily reach 200° F or more. At these high temperatures there is the strong potential for physical damage (such as film sticking to itself) as well as loss of picture quality (low contrast, color shift, and poor shadow detail).

Congrats! I think that you will like the Vista. The screen is small, but it is only a problem if you are trying to look at details while driving or the like. It has great clarity and legibility when you are holding it, and even when driving you can make out the roads fairly easily. My biggest gripe with it is that is doesn't support an external antenna. Did you order the Garmin MapSource Topo CD for topo maps? I also recommend the Metroguide CDs. It's nice to be 200 miles from home in an unfamiliar area and be able to locate the nearest Italian restaurant! [This message has been edited by Moun10Bike (edited 09 May 2001).]

Congrats! I think that you will like the Vista. The screen is small, but it is only a problem if you are trying to look at details while driving or the like. It has great clarity and legibility when you are holding it, and even when driving you can make out the roads fairly easily. My biggest gripe with it is that is doesn't support an external antenna. Did you order the Garmin MapSource Topo CD for topo maps? I also recommend the Metroguide CDs. It's nice to be 200 miles from home in an unfamiliar area and be able to locate the nearest Italian restaurant! [This message has been edited by Moun10Bike (edited 09 May 2001).]

We could really use some caches in SW Michigan. I really want to get into Geocaching, but the closest cache is about 200 miles away.

"Inherent" works for me. And, yes, if you aren?t using GPS, you aren?t Geocaching. (JIntorcio's Law?) This is a concept that the cache owner has to keep in mind when deciding where to place the cache. If the cache can be found by map and compass alone, it isn't a Geocache.(Hawke's Corollary to JIntorcio's Law?) The cache should be placed far enough away from any landmarks found on a USGS topo map that the seeker will have to break out his/her GPS. For example, if clicking on the link to TopoZone shows that a cache is at the base of a 200' radio tower atop the highest hill in the county, you might as well leave your GPS at home. It might still be worth the trip because of a great view, but since it can easily be found without the GPS, it's not really Geocaching. In this case make the great view the first stage of a multistage cache and then you've got something that's becomes more of a navigational challenge.

Mike, I hate to tell you but john-daly.com is as predictable a "deconstruction" as any other. Invariably, these disbelievers use biased opinions and bad examples. Here's a few from his page: "Satellite data shows a cooling trend". I don't know how many times it has to be repeated, but that is using the RAW DATA. This data is uncorrected for orbit decay. Once it is corrected, this "0.03 degree cooling trend" turns into a warming trend. I love his graphs with the "5-year moving average". Think about that for a sec. Why is that invalid? Natural cycles are on scales of thousands - billions of years. ONE SINGLE YEAR will skew even a 100-year average!!! Regressional analysis of a 5 year curve is as meaningful as saying "it was hot today - global warming is true!" Incidentally, all his little anecdotes about individual snowstorms and colder temperatures around the world are just as useful. We have been recording weather for maybe 200 years. Weather has been happening for hundreds of millions of years. The statistical probability that we have seen the extreme ends of what weather is capable of in any given location is next to zero. His article "Opinion - Models or Mimics?" directly contradicts his conclusion that CO2 rates are linked to temperature and not vice versa. (Incidentally this is true - carbonate system weathering rates increase with temperature, leading to more CO2). You'll notice that his rant does not actually address the problem - we are adding billions of tons of CO2 to the atmosphere. His article addresses nothing! If we were increasing the temperature, then it might be relevant, but that isn't the problem. No one is arguing natural cycles and the CO2 lag - that is common knowledge. But what of the reverse??? Also, throughout the site he rags on the media for only presenting the "warming side" of the debate. Yet his site ONLY puts links to the other side of the debate!!! This site is un-professional, un-scientific and completely biased! Statements like : "I have closely followed the carbon dioxide warming arguments. From what I have learned of how the atmosphere ticks over 40 years of study, I have been unable to convince myself that a doubling of human-induced greenhouse gases can lead to anything but quite small and insignificant amounts of global warming." Are meaningless!!! Who is this guy? Why should we believe him?? What evidence is he studying, what is his background, political or otherwise? Okay, this is getting long so I'll shutup. The point is, people like John Daly use bias and un-scientific methods (not to mention poor data) to prove their points. Increase your depth of study before making a conclusion. I have studied climate for 5 years now - here are some better links: http://www.ec.gc.ca/climate/index.html Tons of info on canadian climate and warming effects, including data so you can do your own analysis. http://climatesolutions.org Good facts but obviously biased. Take it with a grain of salt. http://tigerherbs.com/eclectica/earthcrash/index.html This site, opposite of Daly's, keeps track of news articles that support global warming. http://www.ipcc.ch/ The IPCC homepage. Check out the data & reports yourself before taking someone else's opinion of them. It is real! Okay I'm done. [This message has been edited by Goat Commander (edited 22 April 2001).]

Ok folks, tell me what you suggest. In my cache searches locally I don't need to use topo maps and I only use the mapblast to get me near the cache site. I always use my compass between 200 and 100 feet and then use the etrex to estimate how close I am to the cache site. Maybe I should just experiment with magnetic north and true north and see which routinely is more accurate. Maybe there is no real difference for the narrow distance I am discussing. Bill

Your GPS is giving the correct position. The problem is that Geocaching.com uses the WGS84 datum (the current standard), while Topozone.com uses USGS maps that use the older NAD27 datum. This can lead to a positional difference of up to around 200 meters in some parts of the US. In order to plot the correct point on Topozone, you will have to convert the cache coordinates to the NAD27 datum and then tell Topozone (manually) to plot them. For more info on datums, see http://joe.mehaffey.com/maps.txt and http://www.alltopo.com/gps_accuracy.htm .

e already intense use this small system supports. We have approximately 3.5 million visitors per year, which is more than visit Rocky Mountain National Park, and we have only one-eighth the acreage. We appreciation our local geocachers? respect and concern for the environment, as expressed through dialog on the web site, and would like to add our own to the conversation. Our primary concern is the increased off trail use that this activity generates. Assuming the goal of this sport is to use a GPS unit on a scavenger hunt, it seems unlikely that staying on trail would be the normal or desired mode of travel for geocachers. The park has 140 miles of official trails, and we estimate over 200 miles of social trails. This high volume of social trails indicates that visitors are penetrating core areas specifically intended to remain as undisrupted habitat. The topography, slope, soil types and vegetation on Open Space and Mountain Parks properties cannot sustain off-trail use. Off trail activities are causing extensive soil erosion. Trampled vegetation at trail edges tends to be replaced by weeds rather than native plants. We are concerned about damage to native plants such as Ute ladies?-tresses orchids, a federally listed species, as well as other sensitive plant species and communities. Fragmentation of wildlife habitat for animals, like the endangered Preble?s meadow jumping mice, gray fox and goshawk is likely. Disruptive intrusions into the breeding territory of the forest and grassland nesting birds, including peregrine falcons and golden eagles, is also a potential problem. Preserving core areas of unfragmented habitats is a major management goal. Habitat fragmentation affects animals negatively by eliminating vast tracts of uninterrupted space needed to sustain foraging, nesting, breeding and territory needs. Unofficial paths bisecting these habitats cause animals to spend unnecessary time defending their nests or territory from humans. This detracts from time normally spent feeding and caring for their offspring, which can result in the death of their young. Off trail travel results in a corridor of impact. A single person quietly hiking has much less impact than a pair or group, and significantly less impact than when a dog is present. The weaving nature of a dog?s normal travel dramatically broadens the corridor of impact, made worse if the dog is actively scouting for animals, following scent trails, digging and/or barking. Proposing an alternative use for this navigation/orienteering technique that directs the general public to local special natural history points, such as rare plant species or communities, elicits greater concerns. In an effort to balance the research and protection needs of these communities we use staff and volunteers to monitor them, but within a controlled framework. Explorations by larger numbers of people to these areas would probably prove very detrimental to their health. Management policies aim at protection of the lands while providing for appropriate recreational activities. Consequently, our policy includes discouraging off trail use and any activities that involve taking anything from the park or leaving property in the park. Our wildlife closures specifically prohibit human incursions into protected areas. Activities that damage property or can be perceived of as littering or construction of structures are not allowed. Our preference would be to see the geocaching activities happening on lands that are less vulnerable than the Open Space and Mountain Parks properties. The basic premises of the "Leave No Trace Policy" are critical to the protection of these lands: stay on trails, leave it as you found it, carry out your trash, manage your dog, pick up after your pet, and share the trail with other users. (For more specifics on "Leave No Trace", visit the web site www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace/lnt/lntonos.htm.) Our regulations can be found at www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace/rules.htm. Thank you for taking the time to read about our concerns. Feel free to visit our web site at www.ci.boulder.co.us/openspace or contact us at sutherlandd@ci.boulder.co.us or by phone at (303) 441-3440.

Why doesn't this site use UTM coordinates as a standard? UTM coordinates are much more intuitive and is the datum used on USGS maps. Why use degrees, minutes, and seconds when coordinates can be logged in meters? If people are not familiar with the UTM system it would be well worth the short time to learn it. For exanple: If I am standing at 15S 0369238/3923896 and my objective is 15S 0369238/3923696 then I know that my objective is 200 meters south of my current position just by subtracting the coodinates.

I have been swapping e-mails back and forth with Kim from http://www.advancedgps.com/ and she says that 100 vista's are going out tomorrow, and another 200 are expected to be sent out thursaday or friday (this is shipping to customer not shipping to advanced from Garmin.) I have checked many sites for GPS units and pricing and she seems to have one of the best with the offer of no shipping costs. She has also been very helpful and at the time I was e-mailing with her she did not know of "Geocaching" until I mentioned it, she now intends on taking the family out for a go at the sport. If any of you guys are new to this sport and are thinking about buying a GPS unit, be sure to check that site out. I know of many people from this board that have bought theres from here as well as I have too! ------------------ Quinn Stone Rochester, NY.14616 www.Navicache.com [This message has been edited by Quinnow (edited 04-03-2001).]

The ones I was looking at says they can be recharged about 500 times, but what I am wondering is what the heck is NiMH? is that nick cads? also can they be used in the unit I mentioned and at what battery setting? I would like to take a look at the ones you are using, is there a site that shows those? quote:Originally posted by wjoos123:I'm using ACCUCELL's you can get them in all sizes, they have (for AA batteries) 1800mAh !!! and a low discharge current, and better performance in cold conditions. Accucells combine NiMH and Alkaline batteries. They are rechargeable (about 200 time)!!! ------------------ Quinn Stone Rochester, NY.14616 www.Navicache.com

I'm using ACCUCELL's you can get them in all sizes, they have (for AA batteries) 1800mAh !!! and a low discharge current, and better performance in cold conditions. Accucells combine NiMH and Alkaline batteries. They are rechargeable (about 200 time)!!!

Wow those prices are way high. I use quality .50cal ammo cans that i get for 3.50 each. I buy very nice toys for kids like yo-yo's and crayons for 1.00 each at the "dollar store", you can also get a great logbook there for the same price. The camera is about 8-10 like you said, but all in all you can make an excellant cache for around 20.00 total. I still have noticed that tons of people are going out and bragging that they found 5 caches in a single day, some have over 30 caches under their belts, yet have hidden less than 3 if any at all. I put hours into thinking about where I will hide one, as well as the money put into making it and the cost of gas to take it out and place it. So for me to do all this for someone else to enjoy and give nothing back in return is kind of upsetting to me. So for those of you that have run out into the field and cache hunted all day to return and brag about your finds, please remember that if it wasn't for us making them your GPS would still be on that shelf collecting dust. If you're not going to place any then don't go look for any either. I understand that there are those few instances where maybe a geocacher is not able to get out and place one, like maybe health reasons or age, but for those of you that are racking over 5 finds and haven't placed one yet you need to stop where you are and start helping the cause of placing one in a nice location...my two cents! quote:Originally posted by daviskw:Hmmm I guess I could be considered a slacker by the standards here. I have 31 finds and have placed 5. But there is something you people are forgetting, not everyone here is rich. I'm not poor mouthing but on each cache I spent: $6.00 container $8.50 camera $25 of gifts $3.00 logbook $2.00 for 2 pens and 3 pencils and sharpener. 1.00 for baggies and such. Add a few bucks for box decorations and gas to get there and it is around $50 per cache. That is $200 bucks in a couple of months that I found the 31 caches. That's about all I can afford. I'm not complaining, I like having nice cashes for people to find and enjoy and I'm not worried about counting who does what. Butch ------------------ Quinn Stone Rochester, NY.14616 www.Navicache.com [This message has been edited by Quinnow (edited 03-29-2001).]

I have one of the TOPO! sets for SFBay, Napa and BigSur (2 disks total). It was $50. There are about 8 sections of the state available at that rate, or the whole state for $200. I just saw on the discussion list the following web site which apparently has the entire state at $150. www.4x4books.com I really like the series...haven't seen Delorme, but have read some dissatifaction with it.

The default setting for map datum is WGS 84. People have reported problems when trying to line up there coordinates with a topo map, like the ones used on topozone. Their map datum is NAD 27. There can put you off by 200 feet or more. The Cache position listed is WGS 84 but when you look up the position on topozone it will be incorrect if you don't convert it to NAD 27. Hope this helps.

Hmmm I guess I could be considered a slacker by the standards here. I have 31 finds and have placed 5. But there is something you people are forgetting, not everyone here is rich. I'm not poor mouthing but on each cache I spent: $6.00 container $8.50 camera $25 of gifts $3.00 logbook $2.00 for 2 pens and 3 pencils and sharpener. 1.00 for baggies and such. Add a few bucks for box decorations and gas to get there and it is around $50 per cache. That is $200 bucks in a couple of months that I found the 31 caches. That's about all I can afford. I'm not complaining, I like having nice cashes for people to find and enjoy and I'm not worried about counting who does what. Butch

Can some of you experienced GPS unit users give me some idea as to the horizontal accuracy of the hand held units being used by geocachers. Is there a difference in accuracy between the $200 units and the $500 units or do the more expensive just have more features? I have used backpack models with the pole antennae and found them to be very accurate. I would guess, the handheld units are somewhat less accurate. Thanks

quote:Originally posted by bpuetz:I have an eTrex Vista on order, priamrily because of the memory and the altimeter. However, can someone explain the relevant differences between it and the Map76, other than the compass and altimeter? For example, the Map76 says it comes loaded with worldwide cities > 200,000 population. What exactly does that mean? Is that just major streets? I don't think it's any streets - just locations of the cities (although it does also have a basemap with major streets/highways for the Americas). The Map76 is more optimized for marine applications so it comes with a database that includes detailed coastlines and navigational aids (buoys, lighhouses, etc.) in addition to the cities. It also has an audible alarm for conditions like dragging your anchor or proximity to a wreck or reef in addition to the more common functions - turn coming up, batteries low, etc. Unlike the eTrex series, it has a jack for an external antenna so you can use it below decks or in cars that have metallic coatings in the windows - the ext. antenna can also be useful for hiking under dense foliage cover. Finally, it's physically larger which is not so good for hiking, but does give it a larger screen and enough volume so it floats if you drop it overboard (the Magellan 315/330 float too). [This message has been edited by peter (edited 03-23-2001).]

I have an eTrex Vista on order, priamrily because of the memory and the altimeter. However, can someone explain the relevant differences between it and the Map76, other than the compass and altimeter? For example, the Map76 says it comes loaded with worldwide cities > 200,000 population. What exactly does that mean? Is that just major streets?

51, male, active; cyclist (200-300k brevets, slow but plenty of endurance), hiker, x-c skier, snowshoer, canoeist, orienteering. Married, 2 kids. My 12 year old is looking forward to cache hunting with me this spring.

In general, you can expect about 15 meter (49 feet) RMS, which in English means that you can assume that the GPS is correct to within 15 meters 63% of the time (experts, correct me if I'm wrong here). Of course, the position of the satellites in the sky, signal reflection, and signal blockage can all affect this accuracy. With DGPS (differential GPS) you can get within 1-5 meters RMS. All of the consumer units priced between $200 and $500 will give you essentially the same accuracy (although as WAAS continues to get implemented, you will see those that are WAAS enabled start to distance themselves from the others in accuracy). As you surmised, the price differences generally involve the number of extra features. The backpack models you have used and commercial-grade receivers are significantly more expensive, and cost well over $1000.

I'm sure this is the most common question asked here, but gimme a break I just learned of this sport today (through an article in The Baltimore Sun). It sounds like alot of fun and I'd like to take it up, but obviouslly I need a GPS. So please, if you could, recommend a good GPS for me. Here's a couple of specs I've nailed down: -Lightweight, preferably pocket size -around $200 (U.S.) -waterproof (one that floats would be nice) -map display If you don't feel like writing a review, any good websites would also be appreciated. Thanks, in advance, for your help. -See you in the log book.

Mount10bike...I think we just created another sport...the tough part would be digging up the logbook though. But this would be cool for those people that like to scribe(copy) gravestones. We have a cemetary here that is about 2 miles squared and over 200 years old. People use it for the paved trails to bike, jog and walk through all day long. could be a good spot for one of those altoid caches, maybe put it on "jack the rippers" gravesite and log the location...after all, I dont think he'd complain! ------------------ Quinn Stone Rochester, NY.14616 www.Navicache.com [This message has been edited by Quinnow (edited 03-20-2001).]

The most challenging one I've hit so far was the "Blackrock Basin" cache in the Shenandoah NP. We gave up after about 3 hours. It's somewhere on a talus slope about 200 feet high and 100 yards wide. The rocks range from the size of pebbles to the size of VW Beetles, and there are literally MILLIONS of small cracks, crevices, gaps, and holes where it COULD be. We never found the one where it WAS... Scott