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quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:... when science types talk about accuracy, they are generally talking about averages. Well, only if they state it as the average accuracy. Accuracy is really how close something is to the actual thing (coordinate, voltage, or bulls eye). In the case of the archer ClayJar mentioned, his average accuracy might mathematically add up to zero but his shooting is terrible. (This is another example where averages really are not all that good). The root-mean-square of the accuracy would really be a better measurement of the archer's shooting. As for logscaler asking about measurements at different times, I would think the satellite positions would be rather random at the same time of any day. So a measurement at 8 AM one day might use a different mix of satellites than a measurement at 8 AM another day. Lou C

LOL - tell me about rain - just got back from a night-time visit to "Border Crossing" - talk about dark & wet - if it was any darker it'd be darker than pitch black, and any wetter and it'd be under water

Geeshhh! I wonder if he would go back periodically to check the status of his 600+ "doggie doo" waypoints. What waypoint symbol would you use? Did he use a "log" book? About the only good thing would be knowing where not to step. Maybe Jeremy could talk to the guy and have him do a demonstration at our annual geocaching convention. Could you imagine being on that jury, just think of the fun, video! probably some kind of powerpoint presentation, not a dry eye in the court room. [This message has been edited by Fotogg (edited 07 October 2001).]

Interesting, Kerry. So let me see if I understand this. "Repeatable accuracy" is basically the overall precision of the entire Global Positioning System (taking into consideration various receivers at various times under various possible conditions), while "precision" would generally be applied to a single GPS receiver taking multiple measurements of a certain location? (As for Lou C's question about high accuracy and low precision, when science types talk about accuracy, they are generally talking about averages. For an example of low precision but high accuracy, there's the joke about a scientist practicing his archery: His first shot just hit the top of the target. He corrected for his second shot, but it hit right of the bull's eye, and his third hit on the left. He pulled back and let the fourth arrow fly, and as it just hit the bottom of the target, he jumped in the air and ecstatically shouted, "Wow! A Bull's eye!")

You want to talk confused? I've had my Magellan Tracker for almost a year now, and I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "just enough knowledge to make me dangerous..." My question would be, I want to set a pre-set course...look at a map and say..this is where I want to be..set the coordinates..and get there (without having to go thru the swamp btw.. ) I can dowload from easygps. But it won't let me download from hunt 'n map.

You want to talk confused? I've had my Magellan Tracker for almost a year now, and I'm sure you've heard the phrase, "just enough knowledge to make me dangerous..." My question would be, I want to set a pre-set course...look at a map and say..this is where I want to be..set the coordinates..and get there (without having to go thru the swamp btw.. ) I can dowload from easygps. But it won't let me download from hunt 'n map.

I agree, re: opening homes, etc. Last June I posted here that I would be doing a "Super Cache Hunt" and invited any who wanted to come along to do so. I had three join me, one of whom was a newer cacher. We have had a few great experiences together, and I look forward to more. There is always the chance of getting a "wierdo" that you may not particularly choose as a "friend" but my experience so far has been that everyone is nice, decent, and considerate. I think I could put up with anyone I have met through caching for a day and a night. And there are so many things to talk about. I have had several cachers in my home for various reasons, and gone camping with them, and had cookouts with them, and without exception they have all been delightful to meet. I find that typically when you get two cachers together, neither of them will shut up until they both fall asleep, which is a long time coming, also. Strange thing, this hobby.

I agree, re: opening homes, etc. Last June I posted here that I would be doing a "Super Cache Hunt" and invited any who wanted to come along to do so. I had three join me, one of whom was a newer cacher. We have had a few great experiences together, and I look forward to more. There is always the chance of getting a "wierdo" that you may not particularly choose as a "friend" but my experience so far has been that everyone is nice, decent, and considerate. I think I could put up with anyone I have met through caching for a day and a night. And there are so many things to talk about. I have had several cachers in my home for various reasons, and gone camping with them, and had cookouts with them, and without exception they have all been delightful to meet. I find that typically when you get two cachers together, neither of them will shut up until they both fall asleep, which is a long time coming, also. Strange thing, this hobby.

Sounds interesting! I can't be there, but I hope some geocachers turn out and talk it up with some of the TPWD folks. Nothing like making good contacts. And from efforts to get rules and laws in place that allow for and protect pet ferrets, I can tell you there's nothing like having a written rule or policy from the state office of a department and contacts in the department willing to reiterate such rules to smooth things at the local level. I hope this is a good indicator in getting our sport/hobby/activity smiled upon by the Texas parks system! T-storm

quote:Originally posted by martinp13:If I take a random item from one cache, and put it in the next cache I find, do I get an extra point for the "hitchhiker"? I sure HOPE not, cuz that's plain silly. Be sure to read ALL THE WAY down this post. The last paragraph is crucial... I think I can speak for arffer 'cause he and I have talked in the past, and he doesn't really want to change your minds anymore (not that I would be much more successful). First, what you call hitchhiking caches, I call traveling caches (just a difference in names). "Hitchhikers" have been specifically listed as the little doo-dads that go cache to cache. Of course there's a difference. Likewise, there's a definite difference between taking a random item from a cache and moving it into another cache, and a moving a purposeful hitchhiker. I spent a lot of time and effort coming up with my hitchhiker, which was based on the Mars Rover (which you'll note has an original release date of 5/16/2001 long before ANY talk of travel bugs). If arffer wants to have his people get "bonus credit" for serendipitously finding a hitchhiker, what's the harm? It's like extra credit points. Some people take great time and effort in the thought of transporting these trinkets (for example, look at the photos from Scooby Doo uploaded by photojon and ibnekid). So far the biggest nay-sayers to awarding found points for hitchhikers have used the argument that "points don't matter." If points don't matter, why not err on the part of generosity and give people credit for moving a hitchhiker, especially if they go to all the effort that some people do? Now - and here's the important part - I couldn't care less about awarding points for finding a hitchhiker. Because I truly don't care about my points or anyone else's. I built my Scooby Doo page because I wanted some way to track the travels. If enough of the promised features come to fruition, I'll probably archive the original Scooby page in favor of the travel bug version, but until then I'll probably double update. (Edited for formatting issues) [This message has been edited by Markwell (edited 04 October 2001).]

OK here goes,,,,I know rateing bad bad! But unless you put a numerical value on things it makes it tough for a computer. Soooooo, just don't show the results to anyone. Keep the point totals quiet. (Well I guess when J. travels he will still be able to see who is #1) Create a few catagories. Senic, Creative, Fun, Workout. Rate these one-five. Don't show anyone the results. Top ten caches in the State in each catagory get a little icon on the cache page letting people know. (must have x number of finds to get a rating?) Now we get to talk about what kind of icons.

Ditto all others. My experience has been that Mapping is extremely useful. It allows me to take just my GPS and my PDA, with all the cache listings in it, and have basically everything I need. Without mapping, you will need to carry road maps and such, which can get quite cumbersome. You will also have to spend considerable time figuring out where you are on all those maps. Also, I might suggest a GPS that supports NMEA, as most mapping software requires that in order to "talk" to a laptop. I use a laptop with TopoUSA 3.0 on my longer hunts, and my GPS, a Map330 (Magellan) works splendidly.

hat have no reception at all where they are hidden). With averaging, you can get a really good jumping-off point for the dead-reckoning (or triangulation) part. Working around the existing auto-averaging is as easy as giving a nice wave. It'd be nice if they'd hurry up and put a setting in there, but it doesn't kill you as is. Being able to average waypoints you want to be precise is a strong plus. (I'm waiting to see whether Thales has included a setting for auto-av in the Meridians... If they haven't, I'm going to have to have a talk with those guys. )

hat have no reception at all where they are hidden). With averaging, you can get a really good jumping-off point for the dead-reckoning (or triangulation) part. Working around the existing auto-averaging is as easy as giving a nice wave. It'd be nice if they'd hurry up and put a setting in there, but it doesn't kill you as is. Being able to average waypoints you want to be precise is a strong plus. (I'm waiting to see whether Thales has included a setting for auto-av in the Meridians... If they haven't, I'm going to have to have a talk with those guys. )

quote:Originally posted by trash:I also have grown tired of all this talk about caches littering the forest. My solution is to remove them. There are, of course, far too many throughout the country for me to remove them all. I'm starting with those that are the most irritating to me. Maybe other concerned individuals will do the same...."anticachers". Here's to leaving only footprints! SHAME ON YOU FOR TAKING SUCH AN IGNORANT AND SELF SERVING ATTITUDE !!! This whole country is grieving because certain individuals have acted out of ignorance just like you.

I also have grown tired of all this talk about caches littering the forest. My solution is to remove them. There are, of course, far too many throughout the country for me to remove them all. I'm starting with those that are the most irritating to me. Maybe other concerned individuals will do the same...."anticachers". Here's to leaving only footprints!

Amazing what people will do to break the law. Not referring specifically to anyone who's posted here, just that people will actually spend money on this product when all they need to do is drive responsibly. There's just no reason to speed. Running late for a delivery? Plan better next time. Speed limits are there for a reason, regardless of wheter or not we agree with it. If for some reason you dont, talk to folks who've lost a loved one to a speeder, or to someone who's taken another's life because they were late for work one morning. It's just not worth it. [This message has been edited by makaio (edited 25 September 2001).]

If you are looking for a rugged GPS without mapping features then I would look at the eTrex (the original yellow one), or the GPS 12 from Garmin, or the Magellan 315. All three of these units are very rugged. You can read all type of horror stories of someone leaving theirs on top of their car and such and the unit surviving. As long as you get a modern 12 channel GPS then they all have the same accuracy. You do have to watch with some of the low end Magellan units like the 300 and 310 they display less precision on their nav screens. The big think to think about here is not accuracy as much as the sensitivity of the receiver. All 12-channel GPS units use a similar algorithm to calculate their position. This position gets better when it can talk to more satellites. This is why many people claim that the Magellan 315 is more accurate then the Garmin eTrex. Its not more accurate but the 315 has a better antenna then the eTrex and thus in a some difficult situation like heavy tree cover it usually can use more satellite to calculate its position. Thus giving you a more accurate position. The greater accuracy here has nothing to do with the computer inside but the about of information it has to use So if being very rugged and have a good antenna then the Magelland 315 is pretty good for the price. If you can sacrifice a little ruggedness then I would take a look and the Garmin II+(not the II). This unit has one of the best antenna receiver setups going in a handheld short of running and external amplified antenna. This is the Grandfather of the III, III+ and the just released V. Most users out there will tell you that in heavy tree cover and other adverse conditions you can?t bet the II+, III+ unit for there reception. The only way that you will get more accurate is to go to a differential capable unit. There is two type of differential correction. The older technology used a separate receiver that receive a ground based signal that was then feed to a DGPS capable GPS unit. This is bulky and expensive but most hand held out there can do this. You just have to by the separate Differential receiver and hook it up. The other way is call WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). This uses a new satellite to broad cast the differential correction to the unit. WAAS is a new system and slightly more accurate then the older DGPS beacons but, the only non-mapping WAAS units I can think of are the Garmin GPS 76 and the Garmin eTrex Venture. The WAAS differential correction should take you from and estimated position error (EPE) of 15 meters down to about 3 meters. The problem with WAAS is that is usually the first signal you loose as you head into the woods. It is good in the open but gets real spotty when condition get difficult. I am assuming that you want a non-mapping unit to keep the cost down so with that in mind I think I would recommend the Garmin eTrex basic, Garmin 12, or Magellan 315. Of these I would lean to the Garmin 12 but I am partial to Garmin. But if you can wing the money take a look at the II+ or III+ I don?t think you would be disappointed with the performance. Sorry I got wordy. mcb

If you are looking for a rugged GPS without mapping features then I would look at the eTrex (the original yellow one), or the GPS 12 from Garmin, or the Magellan 315. All three of these units are very rugged. You can read all type of horror stories of someone leaving theirs on top of their car and such and the unit surviving. As long as you get a modern 12 channel GPS then they all have the same accuracy. You do have to watch with some of the low end Magellan units like the 300 and 310 they display less precision on their nav screens. The big think to think about here is not accuracy as much as the sensitivity of the receiver. All 12-channel GPS units use a similar algorithm to calculate their position. This position gets better when it can talk to more satellites. This is why many people claim that the Magellan 315 is more accurate then the Garmin eTrex. Its not more accurate but the 315 has a better antenna then the eTrex and thus in a some difficult situation like heavy tree cover it usually can use more satellite to calculate its position. Thus giving you a more accurate position. The greater accuracy here has nothing to do with the computer inside but the about of information it has to use So if being very rugged and have a good antenna then the Magelland 315 is pretty good for the price. If you can sacrifice a little ruggedness then I would take a look and the Garmin II+(not the II). This unit has one of the best antenna receiver setups going in a handheld short of running and external amplified antenna. This is the Grandfather of the III, III+ and the just released V. Most users out there will tell you that in heavy tree cover and other adverse conditions you can?t bet the II+, III+ unit for there reception. The only way that you will get more accurate is to go to a differential capable unit. There is two type of differential correction. The older technology used a separate receiver that receive a ground based signal that was then feed to a DGPS capable GPS unit. This is bulky and expensive but most hand held out there can do this. You just have to by the separate Differential receiver and hook it up. The other way is call WAAS (Wide Area Augmentation System). This uses a new satellite to broad cast the differential correction to the unit. WAAS is a new system and slightly more accurate then the older DGPS beacons but, the only non-mapping WAAS units I can think of are the Garmin GPS 76 and the Garmin eTrex Venture. The WAAS differential correction should take you from and estimated position error (EPE) of 15 meters down to about 3 meters. The problem with WAAS is that is usually the first signal you loose as you head into the woods. It is good in the open but gets real spotty when condition get difficult. I am assuming that you want a non-mapping unit to keep the cost down so with that in mind I think I would recommend the Garmin eTrex basic, Garmin 12, or Magellan 315. Of these I would lean to the Garmin 12 but I am partial to Garmin. But if you can wing the money take a look at the II+ or III+ I don?t think you would be disappointed with the performance. Sorry I got wordy. mcb

The marker was located in Anderson County, Kansas. I looked at the web page, and it does sound as if it may be one of the markers used in the adventure game near Melvern Lake, however part of it doesn't make sense. The events this described talk about going from one campsite to another at Melvern Lake, and finding as many discs as possible in a two hour time period. I do know where Melvern Lake is, I have been there. The disc I found would be about a 45 minute drive from the nearest point of Melvern Lake, and the coordinates that it mentioned would be located in Woodson County, which would be further from the lake still. If a person left Melvern lake and knew exactly where these discs were located, I don't think they could get rubbings from just these two and return to the lake within a two hour period. Doesn't seem like it would be much of a game if the winners had one rubbing, and second place had none at all. The sounds of the challenge game sound as if the discs are placed around or at least within a 5-10 mile radius of the lake. The disc does say "Do Not Remove" on it, so I don't want to ruin something for other people, any more than I would want my caches stolen or vandalized. I would think if someone was doing something as a one-day event, they wouldn't have used something as permanent as this appears to be designed to be. I still don't know what to make of it. If it's a left-over from a game held in the past, I wish they would remove it. It is a heck of a nice place to put a cache

All this talk dissing WAAS! I'll admit to an awareness that WAAS isn't always a system that is very reliable, but hey! I don't care-- I'm a neuvo-techie and I enjoy the tech part of the devices as much. Oh well. So the bird sits low on the horizon, eh? I'd be seeking out no. 47, I think, in the air, the Pacific Ocean Region WAAS satellite. Well, I'll let you all know how it works out. Why a WAAS enabled GPSr might not receive more specific coords than a non-enabled device isn't clear to me from your explanation, IronChef!

Have you guys seen #30? Talk about SWEET!! Moun10Bike...how did you do it?

Talk about obsessed! How far did you have to drive to get that duck? I was thinking of putting Kermit in T-Bird. What do you think? Bob

Talk about obsessed! How far did you have to drive to get that duck? I was thinking of putting Kermit in T-Bird. What do you think? Bob

These arguments are why I believe the text descriptions of the caches are way more important than the numbers. We can talk about this until we are blue in the face but there is no way to get the numerical values perfect. I think we should use the form brokenwing proposed above to get the numbers because it's a great starting point and probably as close as you can get to a universal, usable numerical value. However, when someone hides a new cache let's prompt them to enter *quality* descriptions (perhaps using text from the GCRS system questions). When I see 1's and 2's they are the same to me anyway because I realize people view ability differently (as well as 4's and 5's being similar at the other end). I give much more credence to the *description* entered by the originator than the numbers. -exConn [This message has been edited by exConn (edited 10 September 2001).]