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OK - now that we've done all the esoteric talk and discussed various theories and empirical results, what would either Kerry or Brokenwing have done with the seven different readings I received when I placed that cache? Still haven't posted it.

Well? You know, where people subscribe to a list and all post to it-- and everyone gets a copy of what others spout on about. Usually it's a bit less public than a website forum is-- and it might be a place for people to vent a bit more privately on issues they have. I belong to a mailing list which has about 70-100 subscribers-- we all talk about old Silver Age comic books! Good fun, but private. It's a nice balance to the public forums out on the web like this one. But I have no idea how to start one up.

Anyone in the greater Orlando area intersted in getting together to talk shop, find/place caches, disucss GPS units. Once a month or so at a local resteraunt. ------------------

Oooooh, goodie! I've got some new people lined up to go geocaching and hiking with me. Myself and another Louisiana cacher or two are discussing LAGG-1 for sometime late August or more likely September, so if anyone wants to put their two cents in, post away. (I'm hoping to try the really cool sounding cache SW of Alex this weekend... and it's only about 1.3 miles from an as-of-yet unvisted confluence, IIRC... I hope I can talk J^2 into trying that, too.) [This message has been edited by ClayJar (edited 02 August 2001).]

quote:Originally posted by mfratto:and just for the record, this "sport" reeks of commericalism -- think of the money that goes into doing it. this is not a money-free sport -- at the very least, you need two (gps and computer) and possible three (car/truck) and maybe more very expensive pieces of equiptment to "play." Then there is buying all the fun stuff, shirts, hats, etc. And there is nothing wrong with it, but there isn't much these days that isn't commercial -- unless you mean a walk through with woods -- with no gps, no cache, and no other "goodies." For some of us, when we talk about "commercialism" in this forum we don't mean the money we spend to PLAY the sport. we are talking about the caches that are commercial. Big difference. By your definition, everything about our lives is commercial. That's not what we mean.

quote:Originally posted by mfratto:and just for the record, this "sport" reeks of commericalism -- think of the money that goes into doing it. this is not a money-free sport -- at the very least, you need two (gps and computer) and possible three (car/truck) and maybe more very expensive pieces of equiptment to "play." Then there is buying all the fun stuff, shirts, hats, etc. And there is nothing wrong with it, but there isn't much these days that isn't commercial -- unless you mean a walk through with woods -- with no gps, no cache, and no other "goodies." For some of us, when we talk about "commercialism" in this forum we don't mean the money we spend to PLAY the sport. we are talking about the caches that are commercial. Big difference. By your definition, everything about our lives is commercial. That's not what we mean.

6 USC 1) We count on our park rangers very much to implement the laws governing the National Park Service. Once park personnel are part of the process of setting up an activity on NPS lands, why would they then thwart or remove something that is understood, planned, and permitted? Park staff take their duties very seriously -- and are notified about permitted events on the park lands they help manage. They know what to do and how to respond. If there is an unpermitted event and materials are left on park lands, park staff have the obligation to remove said materials and accost people who some cases, may be actually entering closed areas, unsafe areas, resource-sensitive areas, or otherwise restricted areas (such as no "off-trail use") of these parks to find those unpermitted materials. Rather than report a missing cache back on the geocaching communication lines, you can imagine that the ranger might first actually like to talk to the person who unnecessarily caused all the extra effort and trouble to the park and prevent such occurrences from happening again! As applied to the activity we are discussing -- all the above supposes that geocaching can be considered in some fashion as being an appropriate activity on national park lands. I hope that we can look to the geocaching community, whether the NPS lands are ultimately deemed appropriate or not for specific activities, for their valued partnership and participation in protecting and preserving our national parks. Thanks again for writing. Marcia Keener NPS Office of Policy --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Cephas Hawke Date: 7/25/01 1:55 PM ---Marcia Keener wrote: >I believe I totally understand what you are saying. Lots of time and >effort >wasted to the geocaching participant and organizer when materials are >confiscated. Ms Keener, I'm sorry, but you misunderstood completely. My concern is not with the wasted time and effort of the geocaching participant and organizer(?), but with the land the NPS is trying to protect. Removing an illegal geocache from NPS land is not enough. People will continue to search for it until someone lets them know that it has been removed. Hide it, post it on the web and they will come. Take it away, post NOTHING to the web and they will continue to come. And searching for something that is not there is more likely to be destructive that searching for something that is there. A successful geocacher is in and out in no time; unsuccessful geocachers can spend hours trampling around in the bush. For every blade of grass flattened by the successful geocacher, the unsuccessful geocacher will flatten 10. Your concern on this point is with the enforcement of the rules and regulations and that is fine as far as it goes. But once the rules are enforced, people will continue to search unless you tell them there is no longer anything to search for. You have made a good case that geocaching is in violation of current rules. There might be a case to be made that it is a violation to even search for that geocache. But you will be hard pressed to say that it is against the rules to search for something that no longer exists, especially when the NPS made no effort to notify the public that the cache had been removed. I'm no lawyer, but that starts to look like entrapment. Bottom line: If you want to stop geocachers from searching for an illegal cache, first seize the cache, second let potential searchers know that it was confiscated. The first step enforces the law, the second step protects the park. Isn't that what this is all about, protection of the parks? And the second step is easier than the first. C. Hawke Bedford NH --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Author: Marcia Keener Date : Thu, 26 Jul 2001 09:01:35 -0400 Mr. Hawke, Thank you for pointing this out - I guess we have to assume the ranger knows from the information contained within that it is the the object of a current "hunt," that many people may continue to try to find it, and also where to go on-line to report its removal. To report its confiscation (and why--to educate all would-be geocachers entering the park) on-line would certainly be helpful in stopping further activity....a tip we can pass along. Marcia [This message has been edited by CaptHawke (edited 02 August 2001).]

I should also add here that my first cache has been found by the park rangers... From what I'm told they signed the log book and replaced the cache. I would like to talk to them about it and I certainly will when I get back there (3 1/2 hours away).. I am somewhat embarrassed that I did not ask for permission prior but feel it would be best to admit my haste and thank them for their acceptance. In general it's so hard to get addresses and phone numbers of contact people though. I have tried emailing the state parks service and they refered me to another webpage that looped me back to them. Ttepee

More thoughts-- yeah, who in the NPS would really know? With all due respect to Buzbon, did he talk to the 'right' guy? And who knows what opposite answer another fellow might give if asked the same question? I'm all for respecting property rights and all the laws that make sense to me in this world-- or ignoring the ones that don't affect me or I think are ridiculous. That being said, I sincerely doubt the NPS has a policy on geocaching-- for the simple reason that they have no experience with it more than likely, and if they did, they'd simply apply (I'm guessing) some regulation that would apply to being fined for failing to remove trash. I will suspect that the jury is out.

ckpackers like myself, removal of all vehicles from necessary trailheads in remote desert will necessarily remove all human contact from vast tracts of desert lands... Well, gee. Maybe you just won't get to see everything in your lifetime. You have my sympathies, but the overall health of the environment is FAR more important than your (and my) selfish human desire to "conquer" it. quote:Since human habitation has been going on in the U.S. deserts for approximately 4,000 years the idea that all humans are better kept away for fear of potential environmental damage is absurd. The absurdity is yours. Talk about uninformed. You should read just a little about the historic population of the North American deserts. You'll learn that there were NOT millions of inhabitants with "vehicles" roaming the deserts. In fact, the wheel did not even exist on the continent until it was brought by Europeans. Your lack of knowledge is going to make it very difficult for you to prove your argument.

ckpackers like myself, removal of all vehicles from necessary trailheads in remote desert will necessarily remove all human contact from vast tracts of desert lands... Well, gee. Maybe you just won't get to see everything in your lifetime. You have my sympathies, but the overall health of the environment is FAR more important than your (and my) selfish human desire to "conquer" it. quote:Since human habitation has been going on in the U.S. deserts for approximately 4,000 years the idea that all humans are better kept away for fear of potential environmental damage is absurd. The absurdity is yours. Talk about uninformed. You should read just a little about the historic population of the North American deserts. You'll learn that there were NOT millions of inhabitants with "vehicles" roaming the deserts. In fact, the wheel did not even exist on the continent until it was brought by Europeans. Your lack of knowledge is going to make it very difficult for you to prove your argument.

Well having just finished our first one my roomate and I have decided to create one of our own as well. What I am wondering, for you Ames residents, have you had to recieve persmission from the Parks and Rec office to do this? or should our first step be to talk to them?

I'm looking to buy my first GPS system. I was looking at the GPS 315 and thought it sounded decent. Not knowing the least bit of anything about them, it sounded good. I've read a lot of you talk very good about it and was wondering what a good price is for it. The one I saw was $150, is that a good buy?

quote:Originally posted by bwolv:Heee heee, (TSlack200) I'm glad we reached the same answer! Hey! You dropped a 0 in my handel! Didn't we just talk about this.

quote:Originally posted by bwolv:Heee heee, (TSlack200) I'm glad we reached the same answer! Hey! You dropped a 0 in my handel! Didn't we just talk about this.

Green is sold out. I'll probably get more in 3 weeks. I didn't have enough cash to make a huge run of hats, but was able to finagle a larger run this time. The stone hats in two tone colors are now out of stock at the manufacturer (though we do have a few left in stock here), so we'll be getting stone sandwich hats - same color on the outside but not two-tone. We're also getting a stone bucket cap. Sorry, can't talk about the secret item yet Jeremy

Green is sold out. I'll probably get more in 3 weeks. I didn't have enough cash to make a huge run of hats, but was able to finagle a larger run this time. The stone hats in two tone colors are now out of stock at the manufacturer (though we do have a few left in stock here), so we'll be getting stone sandwich hats - same color on the outside but not two-tone. We're also getting a stone bucket cap. Sorry, can't talk about the secret item yet Jeremy

This controversy regarding 'commercial geocaching' or 'virtual caches'-- what's the point here, bottom line, for us all? Why do we geocache? My answer is below... ? it's fun! Am I having fun? ? it gets me outdoors and to places I've never been-- it helps me to discover my world! ? it gives me a fuller understanding of the technology of GPS... expands my experience in general web and other tech... I like gadgets that have practical applications. ? but am I having fun and getting some exercise? There are the keys... for me! If I go to a cache that's commercial-- like the coffee shop in question... if it's labeled as commercial, then fine! I'll take my chances by going. If some guy thinks that the coffee shop is great, well hell! Fine, I don't mind! Finding a place by virtue of GPS tech is the challenge. Better yet would be instructions on the web announcement page to enter the shop and ask for the cache (a real one!) from someone behind the counter. Inside could be coffee drink coupons provided the geocacher/coffee shop enthusiast. That works for me! C'mon guys! Purism is fine, and for me, I don't care if the GPS coordinates are the most gorgeous waterfall in California or some greasy dive in San Francisco that has the best calamari I'll ever taste. Point is, I don't have an address to check-- only GPS coords. If Joe Geocacher likes Coffeeshop X or Restaurant Le Spoon de Greese, I don't mind if he posts it on the site. The getting there is the thing. Still, a physical cache would be damned preferable. I want the cacher to work a LITTLE bit-- talk to the proprietor or staff of the commercial spot s/he likes, and set up a PHYSICAL CACHE. Tell the staff or proprietor to expect occasionally folks with little 'cell phones' coming to the store. Can't be bad for business-- they may even use the service or goods available there! I'm planning a series of waypoints and cache for my wife. I'll start with her going to my friend's house (give her the key) where she will then have instructions to get the GPS I'll leave there with the pre-programmed waypoint stops on her trip toward her final present. I'll send her to a coffee shop I like-- with instructions to speak to the staff and make some identifying request so that she can access the cache. From there, another item she must take to the next waypoint on her schedule. And so forth-- where she finally ends up at the massage/hot tub studio we occasionally go to. Now, I wouldn't post this on the geocaching site-- it's just for her. Look, geocaching is all about having fun, getting out and getting exercise, and seeing the new stuff in the world to see. Having fun. Is there something wrong with the Planet of the Apes search promotion? Naah. It looks like fun. So, ask yourself-- what's the point of geocaching except to enjoy yourself? If coffeeshop owner puts out a commercial cache, that's one thing. You as a poster make your choice. If I see an ad in the paper for a new restaurant with NO address or phone number,other than good food provided at reasonable prices, whoa! Cool! (not good promotion, really, but cool. How many of us have GPS devices?) But, imagine! First it was email addresses, then websites. Soon it'll be... GPS coordinates? Are we having fun yet? Lots of possibilities with this technology-- and I'm already working them into my personal life with my wife. Gives me a chance to be 'clever' and creative-- another cool thing about the technology! Well? Are you having fun? Well?

quote:Originally posted by jeremy:I had a talk with one of these companies about using their tracking devices and making them hitchikers, but they wanted me to pay for them. Yuk. They can get expensive. Battery power would be the biggest concern. You'd have to have an extremely low power device, solar powered, or nuclear to keep it going for any good deal of time. Jeremy Nuclear powered beer? We truely are a superior civilization. :~) Take that you peksy Apes! ------------------ -Iron Chef _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ agefive.com/geocache/ ~ Fe-26 Lets Drive Fast and Eat Cheese!

I had a talk with one of these companies about using their tracking devices and making them hitchikers, but they wanted me to pay for them. Yuk. They can get expensive. Battery power would be the biggest concern. You'd have to have an extremely low power device, solar powered, or nuclear to keep it going for any good deal of time. Jeremy

I had a Magellan GPS 310 for our first cache hunt yesterday and it worked pretty good. But I wanted the thousandths, so I was told the etrex (yellow) was the way to go. I got that and did our 2nd hunt today. I think the trees were a little thicker, but not dramatically. I kept getting 'weak signal' messages and it took an unfun amount of time to find the cache. And in the car - yesterday I was comparing the 310's speed to my speedometer, no problem. Today, I had to hold the etrex up to the window. Looking at the signal strength of each satellite on the etrex, I get maybe 3 strong signals when I was standing in a baseball field sized open area, in the center. Yesterday, the 310 woudl talk of tracking 5-9 satellites (not sure how strong the signals were for all of them though! I've read a bunch of threads about the etrex and am really confused on moving up again to the 315. Any thoughts?!

Re: Rusty I think you are on track. The main problem other users are having is that the perception of their sport(s) is/are that the general public perceives them as destructive. Every time you see an advertisement for ATVs, they talk about the go-anywhere abilities of the vehicles, which is true, mostly, and they show them plowing over logs and through rivers and what-not. I am not making a call on whether this is okay or not, what I AM saying is that it is definitely not a good perception for the public to have. IMHO, Honda, Polaris, Yamaha, and Suzuki are not helping themselves out with this campaign, but whatever sells product, I suppose. Relate to Geocaching: We are users of the same areas, more or less, as the ATV/OHV crowd. many of us, in fact, use ATVs/OHVs to play this game. We also leave evidence of our game on the public lands. This might create a perception that we are also littering/defacing the land as much as some think the OHVers are. I disagree, but that is not the point. The key is that as far as public sentiment/opinion goes, perception IS reality. We have the upper hand, in that we have already been portrayed on national TV, in the newspapers, and on the radio as hikers and rugged outdoorsmen (at least that's how I saw it) and it is just as well to let that stand. I would prefer that it also be true that we are regarded as conscientious outdoorsmen, practicing the "leave no trace" principles at least as much as anyone out there, if not more so. I wear a Geocaching t-shirt essentially all the time, even when I am not Geocaching, but especially when I am, for a lot of reasons. I like to think I am considerate of the land anyway, but with my cap and shirt, I think I have an opportunity to improve the perception. I think that my favorite is when I am coming down a trail in my cap and shirt with a bag full of trash I picked up along the trail, and I get the chance to talk to someone about Geocaching. The bag of trash in my hand speaks volumes about who we are and what we are about. I admit, this all sounds "propaganda-ish" and contrived. You must also agree, however, that so, too, is usually NEGATIVE perception established. A few vocal people see a couple bad apples out doing something wrong, and the next thing anyone knows, that activity is being banned from all sorts of areas. We have a great advantage. This sport is, by its nature, internet-based. We already have far better communication than any other segment of outdoor recreationists. Not everyone reads these forums, but it is impossible to participate in this sport on any meaningful level without using Geocaching.Com. Jeremy Irish does a marvelous job of not only maintaining this site, but of giving the nudges the sport needs in the proper directions to keep it moving along positively. I think that generally, there is enough positive peer pressure to keep things going along as they should. Comments, anyone?

Re: Rusty I think you are on track. The main problem other users are having is that the perception of their sport(s) is/are that the general public perceives them as destructive. Every time you see an advertisement for ATVs, they talk about the go-anywhere abilities of the vehicles, which is true, mostly, and they show them plowing over logs and through rivers and what-not. I am not making a call on whether this is okay or not, what I AM saying is that it is definitely not a good perception for the public to have. IMHO, Honda, Polaris, Yamaha, and Suzuki are not helping themselves out with this campaign, but whatever sells product, I suppose. Relate to Geocaching: We are users of the same areas, more or less, as the ATV/OHV crowd. many of us, in fact, use ATVs/OHVs to play this game. We also leave evidence of our game on the public lands. This might create a perception that we are also littering/defacing the land as much as some think the OHVers are. I disagree, but that is not the point. The key is that as far as public sentiment/opinion goes, perception IS reality. We have the upper hand, in that we have already been portrayed on national TV, in the newspapers, and on the radio as hikers and rugged outdoorsmen (at least that's how I saw it) and it is just as well to let that stand. I would prefer that it also be true that we are regarded as conscientious outdoorsmen, practicing the "leave no trace" principles at least as much as anyone out there, if not more so. I wear a Geocaching t-shirt essentially all the time, even when I am not Geocaching, but especially when I am, for a lot of reasons. I like to think I am considerate of the land anyway, but with my cap and shirt, I think I have an opportunity to improve the perception. I think that my favorite is when I am coming down a trail in my cap and shirt with a bag full of trash I picked up along the trail, and I get the chance to talk to someone about Geocaching. The bag of trash in my hand speaks volumes about who we are and what we are about. I admit, this all sounds "propaganda-ish" and contrived. You must also agree, however, that so, too, is usually NEGATIVE perception established. A few vocal people see a couple bad apples out doing something wrong, and the next thing anyone knows, that activity is being banned from all sorts of areas. We have a great advantage. This sport is, by its nature, internet-based. We already have far better communication than any other segment of outdoor recreationists. Not everyone reads these forums, but it is impossible to participate in this sport on any meaningful level without using Geocaching.Com. Jeremy Irish does a marvelous job of not only maintaining this site, but of giving the nudges the sport needs in the proper directions to keep it moving along positively. I think that generally, there is enough positive peer pressure to keep things going along as they should. Comments, anyone?

I'm with BKDotCom. I use the "Information [?] symbol. I hadn't thought about using two different symbols for "un-found" and "found". But, I think that is a good idea. Maybe we could talk the manufactures into a software/firmware upgrade that would meet our needs. Anyone know any product planning managers at Garmin, Magellen, etc.?

I'm with BKDotCom. I use the "Information [?] symbol. I hadn't thought about using two different symbols for "un-found" and "found". But, I think that is a good idea. Maybe we could talk the manufactures into a software/firmware upgrade that would meet our needs. Anyone know any product planning managers at Garmin, Magellen, etc.?