Wet Pancake Touring Club
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Posts posted by Wet Pancake Touring Club
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Perhaps x number of days finding caches, and perhaps even x number of types of caches would be a better measure.
So an hour or two on the ET Highway grabbing fungible film canisters, and someone is ready to hide a cache? But someone who has found a dozen varied caches in varied locations isn't? And someone with only 50 caches within 50 miles has to do a lot of traveling before they can hide their first cache?New users should be required to find at least 100 caches to get an idea of what works before being allowed to even create a cache.Find count is the wrong measure.
Not that I'm in favor of a ruling of any sort like that... one of my favorite hiders of all times had only a half-dozen or fewer finds before he started hiding some great caches.
I like an earlier suggestion. Before you can get a cache published, you have to take a test. Groundspeak already distinguishes between different kinds of users, so the mechanism to enforce this may already exist in part. Pass a knowledge test, set the attribute on the user ID that allows them to submit caches. The 'grandfather' clause would be to set this for any user that had already placed 5 or more caches.
Skye.
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Based on how many GeoTours have been added in the last couple of years, I think the tourism bureaus are seeing that GeoTours are working. As for the costs, you didn't mention if that 12K was hard dollars or did it include allocated employee costs. Were the caches placed/maintained by employees, or did they bring in local geocachers? If they brought in locals, were there any expenses related to that, such as paying mileage to place/maintain caches? 12K doesn't strike me as a lot for a tourism bureau wanting to bring tourists to the region.
Also, it would be interesting to see what services/support they get from Groundspeak for their $2,500. They get a listing, of course, on the GeoTour web page. There are GeoTour links on the search page with the latest release. They get access to this forum. They get feedback in the form of logs and passports. Do they get any statistics for the distance geocachers traveled (based on home location)? Do they get easy access to our user IDs for marketing purposes? (I hope not.)
Back to the $2,500, I also wonder if that is a flat fee for any GeoTour, or do they offer different rates for different kinds of sponsors. Maybe it's only $1,000 for governmental agencies. Tourism bureaus may get a different rate, while commercial entities have yet another rate.
As for the benefits for the region? If you look at my stats, you will see a bump in the number of caches in the distance from home table. That bump was caused by doing the Lane County GeoTour. Six days, four nights, two trips to get four geocoins. And, when I complete the WA State Parks GeoTour, I will have traveled several thousand miles and spent quite a few days and nights in WA. In all, I will spend several thousand dollars all for a GeoCoin. While I live in adjoining Idaho, these represent significant time and money for me.
Why do I travel long distances for a GeoTour? Partly for the bragging rights, and partly because the caches in GeoTours generally fit my definition of a 'quality' cache.
On a different tangent, I am worried about a backlash. I think that groups that pay to setup GeoTours are walking a fine line. A GeoTour cannot be a completely commercial activity. There will be geocachers that will be quite vocal against GeoTours because of the commercial activity. I'll admit that when I started on my first GeoTour, the first couple of stops were at local businesses. I almost quit right there. But I continued, and almost all of the rest of the caches were in county parks, along beaches and in national forests. That's when I got hooked on GeoTours.
Thanks, Skye.
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WSU logo outside of Pullman, WA. At least there, the containers were all along the Bill Chipman rail-trail, and you had to walk or bike. However, the answer to every two-choice question was always A. The coords for answer B were all the same, and took you to the WSU football stadium.
Skye.
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Yeah, I saw that in the release notes. I think it is a great idea.
Skye.
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All this talk about 'quality' proves one thing. Quality is in the eyes of the beholder. To me, getting back to the OP, and their idea that an overhaul is required, I disagree that an overhaul is required. I think we already have most of the tools in place with geocaching.com, we now need to finish what is needed to make use of them.
For me, any cache that is part of a geotour is one I want to find. When travelling, I look for earthcaches, virtuals and webcams. Anything that helps fill out my Jasmer and D/T challenges is something I am interested in. I am not interested in Park n' Grabs. I don't have scuba equipment, so those that require it are out. In winter, I want to avoid caches that can't be found under lots of snow. Late at night, I want to make sure the cache is available 24/7. If I have to pay a fee, I'd like to know up front. All of these things would help winnow out caches I'm not really interested in. All of these searches are possible using attributes.
However, attributes currently suffer because of inconsistent application, and the fact that they weren't added until later, so a lot of the early caches don't have them. How can we overcome this?
First, we have to get the reviewers to require attributes. They really can't challenge what the CO says, but a cache is either available 24/7 or it is not. It is available during winter, or it is not. There are a handful of attributes that should always be set. Make the CO set those. Parking available, restrooms available, those are examples of attributes that the reviewer can't mandate. Maybe we change the cache submission process so that the CO has to go through a series of questions and can't skip them. Anyhow, encourage the CO to make the attributes accurate.
The second thing is we need a mechanism to allow attributes to be added (or changed), on existing caches. This is a lot harder, what with CO's that won't take the time, or CO's that are not longer around. We may need a process that allows the users a method to suggest attributes. One way could be to allow attributes to be submitted with logs. If enough users set the same attribute, the system will update the attributes on the cache. Or maybe we duplicate the attributes. CO submitted attributes, and user attributes (with a count of the number of users that set the attribute).
Anyhow, my $0.02 worth (and I probably am overcharging).
Thanks, Skye.
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I had no problem figuring out these UNKNOWN caches they were not at the posted coords just by looking at the map and seeing on the cache page you have to solve the puzzle. I have seen many puzzles not mention they were not at the posted coords.
In today instant gratification world, there are going to be people that don't take the time to read all of the cache page. Hey, look, its in the shape of a star. Let's try this. Got the coordinates, lets go, don't bother reading about it, its just boring history stuff. My suggestion is aimed at trying to get the attention of those few.
Looking at your profile, I see you have found over 29,000 caches. So, I think its safe to say you have a little more experience in these things than most. :-)
Thanks, Skye.
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I think one of the problems with this particular kind of geoart is that you have to use mystery caches to accomplish it. Mystery caches may, or may not, be at the listed coordinates. In my area, for mystery caches that are not at the posted coordinates, most CO's will emphasize, right at the beginning of the description, that the cache is not located at the posted coordinates. Looking at the cache description, it is not obvious in this case.
My point... For new cachers, they may not realize that that they have to solve something, and/or they don't know how to enter new coordinates into their GPSr. They just go traipsing off over the fields, damaging crops, or upsetting cattle, looking in the wrong place. A couple of instances like this, and I can see why the locals would get angry.
I have no statistics or research on whether or not this is happening, its just a hunch. I know of one time where I did just that. Another time, I thought I had corrected the coordinates, but I didn't. (I've since changed my procedures because, frankly, I hate when I do that.)
Another thought, something that Groundspeak should be able to add fairly easily, is a notice at the top of all Mystery Caches, that the cache might not be at the posted coordinates, and you should carefully read the description.
Thanks, Skye.
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For me, I do carry around a portion of my collection everywhere I go. I purchased micro geo-coins for each type of cache I have found. I also have a FTF and 1000 cache achievement coin. All of these are affixed to my hat, and the tracking numbers are not visible. If anyone notices them and asks, I have a business card size list of the tracking numbers. Nothing automated, just typed them in and printed them out.
Skye.
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57. At events, I'm in the 'older' category. Lots of families with teen and pre-teen (11-15) in my area. Being near two college towns (8 miles apart) will probably skew the average age a little lower.
I do agree with others that basing the average age of geocachers based on events will be misleading. At one biking event with 15 or so, I was middle of the pack. At a pizza/birthday party/get well event, I was the third oldest, out of 30 or so.
In addition to myself, one of my sons (Bowling4Cache @ 30) geocaches with his family. My daughter (StormKing @ 27) is an occasional geocacher. And, I have several grand-kids that geocache with grampa, and/or their families.
Skye.
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Quality is, and always will be, subjective. My caching has changed over the years, film pots at the base of a sign are not terribly thrilling anymore. On the other hand, there is one local cacher I know that has a special needs child. He never tires of finding these kinds of caches.
In my opinion, one thing that would help is a more consistent application of attributes. There are way too many caches getting published with no attributes selected. Ask the reviewers to challenge the cache owner to add attributes for any new caches. No attributes, it is not published. For me, ignoring caches with the Park & Grab attribute would make my searching for 'quality' caches a whole lot easier. With the increased number of geocaches in the world, we need better tools to help us find our definition of 'quality'. However, without a more consistent application of attributes, that basically means looking at each cache by hand.
Thanks, Skye.
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Thanks for the update.
On another note, one of the problems is that you can only pick a single location for the trail/tour. Some of these can get cover a lot of territory. I was thinking about adding a radius or area column, but I'm not sure that that would help much. And I doubt that Google Fusion would be able draw circles, or any other shapes. That would also get to be a maintenance nightmare.
Anyhow, the basic idea is to give people an idea of just how how much travel is involved, and how long they may expect it to take to get all of the caches. So, I would like to see the following added to several of the trails/tours in the Notes column.
For the BLM Idaho Land Adventure trail, add 'Caches located throughout the state. Will take more than a day to complete all caches.'
The Washington State Parks should have a similar note; 'Caches located throughout the state. Will take a week or more to complete all caches.'
The Lamprey trail is 'Between Chehalis and Aberdeen, WA. Single day.'
Bigfoot is North Bonneville, WA area, single day.
HQ, local to Fremont, WA, couple of hours walking.
Lane County. Each tour follows a route. Will take up to a week to complete all four tours.
Is there anyway to open up the notes column for editing, rather than asking you to make all of these changes?
Thanks, Skye.
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Also, put the date the geotour/trail was first published. That way, we know if the prize is likely still available or all gone. (Sorry, but I have a thing for getting those geocoins!)
I agree. The spreadsheet does have the creation date listed, however it would be nice if it was also in the pop-up on the map.
Thanks, Skye.
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You should search for 'Top Five Android Geocaching Apps'. I found it on notaboutthenumbers.com, at this link. The article is from 2012, but I think the apps still exist.
I use a GPSr, and not a smartphone. My two main units will show me the direction and distance to the nearest cache, when setup with the Geocaching Profile on the units.
Skye.
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You may want to do a little searching on-line. Garmin offers a repair service, and there are places where you can purchase replacement parts.
Skye.
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How many people do you think are maintaining these "environmentally irresponsible" extended streaks?
How many of them do you think would quit just because Groundspeak stopped displaying the Current Streak statistic?
To answer your question, not me. I could care less what my current 'streak' is. However, I did decide to complete the 365/6 grid, as a New Years resolution. As the grid was quite empty when I made that decision, I had to do lots of 'one cache a day' trips, because caches around my area can be a little sparse. And I did, one cache a day, because my conscience wouldn't let me cheat. Coming up this August, I'm going to start that up again, because that is how far I made it before I had to break my resolution.
I also just completed a 2,500 work/geocaching trip. If it was just for work, I would have driven under 1,200 miles. The remaining 1,300 miles was geocaching. And I only went after about 30 caches. 1,300 miles for 30 geocaches. That's roughly one geocache per 45 miles. They were caches that I wanted to get for a variety of reasons. Jasmer, GeoTour, Favorite, Oldie, D/T, etc.
So, am I environmentally friendly? Not when it comes to Geocaching, unless, of course, it is a CITO event. And, removing the 'Current Streak' from the statistics isn't going to change that for me. :-)
Skye.
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I haven't run into the problem yet...
It seems that some people want a way to prevent phantom logging. I will assume that there are also a lot of TO's that don't care who logs their trackables. What we need is a way that the TO can exercise some control, but not cause extra work for TO's that don't care. Some kind of authorization scheme seems like a lot of work.
What if the TO could enter (and update) a 'logging allowed radius' on a trackable? Initially, the default would be world-wide. Logging of a trackable would not be allowed if the trackable is farther than the radius away from its current location. Just a flat denied, no pending approval state, or anything like that. For trackables released into the wild, I would leave the radius as world-wide. For trackables in my collection (such as the car decal mentioned by the OP), I could set them to a 1000 miles (and because they are in my collection, they would use my home location as their current location).
Is this perfect? No, it is not. I'm going for the 80/20 rule, and trying to solve 80% of the problem, and to minimize the impact caused by the other 20%. Here are a couple of scenarios of the impact. If I travel to an event that is close to the radius, there is a chance that legitimate people would be denied. Or, a foreign visitor to a local event would have a problem. And of course, there is the case of the travel bug decal and I travel outside of the radius. At the risk of making the solution more complex to implement, we could expand the definition of 'current location' to be my home location, and the location of the last event that I attended. This would catch a few of these issues.
One other thing to consider is the phrasing of the 'not allowed to log this trackable' message. It should contain someway for the logger to contact the TO so they can make arrangements to log the trackable (by temporarily changing the radius).
What I am suggesting should be (moderately) simple to implement, not affect TO's that don't care, not create much, if any, extra work for 'legitimate' tracakble logs, and not create a lot of work for the TO's that do care.
Skye.
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I like the spreadsheet and map of the GeoTours and GeoTrails. I would suggest a couple of changes to the map.
1. Make the placemarks a similar size. I like the size of the GeoTrails circles, the GeoTour placemarks are just huge in comparison.
2. Make them different colors. However...
3. Keep them different shapes. That way color blind people can still differentiate between the symbols.
4. If possible, add a legend.
Thanks, Skye.
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There doesn't seem to be a way to access the geotrails. If you click on the link from the map, you just get sent to the geotours page, where it isn't listed.
It is working correctly for me. I only tried a handful, so I can't confirm they all work. I did a quick look on the list, the URL looks correct.
Skye.
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Make sure your geotour has more than the required number of caches. I'm waiting on completing a tour right now because two of the necessary caches are disabled and there aren't any extra ones I can do instead. I'm hoping the cache owners will get around to replacing their caches eventually so I can finish up.
I second the motion. For large GeoTours, you could also consider different awards for different levels. The Lane County GeoTours (36 caches each), require 24 for the coin, and for all 36, they entered you into a drawing for a trip (to Lane County, of course!). The Washington State Park GeoTour has over 100 caches. There is a challenge cache available to those that find 50+. Also, they have a silver coin for completing 50, and a gold coin for getting 100.
Skye.
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What do you like most about challenge caches?
I like a challenge that causes me to explore a bit, and has a nice reward. For me, GeoTours represent great challenge caches. I can log each cache individually, and I may get something more for completing the tour. So, thematic challenges I like. A cache in every state park, or going to every county.
What do you not like about challenge caches?
They are not easy to identify. I really, really, REALLY think they need to be their own cache type. Really! Or, add an attribute. But, if you add an attribute, please ask the reviewers to verify the attribute is set before publishing the cache.
This comes into play when I am traveling. I'll look at the map and see what caches are close by. Mystery/Unknown caches require a lot of up front review to determine if it a puzzle that has to be worked out ahead of time, a field solvable puzzle (shouldn't these be multi-caches?), or a challenge.
What would you like to see changed about challenge caches?
There is a subjective part that I would like to see changed. I prefer challenge caches that get me go places I wouldn't normally, as opposed to streak type challenges. So, a challenge of find 100 micro's in a month is not exciting. That is simply a numbers games. But I don't mind streak challenges that can be completed in a day or weekend, such as most number of different kinds of caches in a day. So, what I would change is to disallow specific duration challenges lasting longer than a couple of days. Finding a cache in every state park gets me out and about. No time limit, I can complete this on my own time frame.
If you could describe your favorite challenge cache type, what would it be?
My favorite challenge cache isn't really a cache at all, but kind of a meta cache. To me, completing a GeoTour (a few have a bonus cache you can only log if you complete the GeoTour) is my current favorite kind of caching. I am also working on my D/T matrix, and a Jasmer challenge. Completing these are my current challenges.
What types of challenge caches do you avoid?
I don't like most streak types, unless they can be completed in a day. We have challenge caches where you have to have a streak of over 400 days of finding a cache. Sorry, after a while, this just gets tiring.
My other pet peeve with challenge caches deals with the cache itself. The cache container and placement should be well thought out, and appropriate for the challenge. If you are challenging someone to find the 100 oldest caches in the area, the challenge cache better be equivalent. Older caches are generally ammo cans, and are generally in some interesting areas. A bison tube on a telephone pole would be in-appropriate for this challenge. However, a LPC for a challenge involving LPCs would be appropriate. (On a side note, while I would probably not do an LPC challenge cache, I do have friends with special needs children. My hypothetical LPC challenge cache may be the cats pajamas for them.)
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Look into Pocket Queries. You can create a pocket query (lots of selection options). Once the pocket query runs (usually on a few minutes), you can download the resulting GPX file, and copy it to /Garmin/GPX directory on your GPSr.
Skye.
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I also have a Montana. I believe that it will hold 4000 caches. There are some regions in California where the cache count can easily exceed this limit. So, you may need to be selective in the caches you load.
I would create a Pocket Query (PQ) of caches along a route to locate caches that are along highways (pretty much every rest area has at least one), and combine them with PQ's around the areas where you will be doing more exploring. If the number of caches you get in this manner gets close to 4000, consider trying GSAK (Free, with a nag screen). I find GSAK makes it easy to sort out caches that don't interest you (like a lamp post cache in a Walmart), and focus on other caches (like the ones in a redwood forest near Crescent City).
Skye.
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When long times and distances are involved, I research caches that I specifically want to find, or may be 'special'. I am working on several GeoTours, a Jasmer challenge, a D/T matrix challenge, and a favorites challenge. So, these are the caches that I plan around. I do use third party software to organize everything, by adding tags to the cache name. These tags are unique, and easy to filter on the GPSr. I load ALL (planned and unplanned) of the caches in the area onto the GPSr. So, I can easily focus on the caches I really want to find by filtering, yet also look for opportunity caches by removing the filter.
My tags are:
Dhv - D/T matrix
Jhv - Jasmer
Fhv - Favorites challenge
Thv - GeoTour
I can filter on the specific tag, or on 'hv' to get all tagged caches.
Skye.
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And just who's going to put out these challenges and create the what ever it is to be collected and monitor cachers are meeting the challenges, sound like a lot of extra work, for what?
Yes, it will be extra work. However, there is kind of a sub-category of challenge caches where people are taking the time and energy to do just that. Check out the List of GeoTours and geotrails with rewards in the GeoTours & Reward Geotrails forum. Some of the these are 'Official GeoTours', while others are just a local organization (or cacher) that is challenging people to log a certain set of caches for a reward of some kind.
For the most part, the only challenge caches I like are these physical reward type caches. In my area, quite a number of challenge caches are simply film pots, with an ALR. So far, all of the GeoTours I have done have taken me to interesting places. The caches are well maintained. Of course, GeoTours have a vested interest in keeping them well maintained, most are run by tourism groups. I have not done a reward geotrail yet, but I would assume that they would have similar goals, and put out interesting caches, and maintaining them.
Skye.
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PQ and GEO Tours
in How do I...?
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You cannot create a PQ for a specific GeoTour. (As noted, you can download the GPX, which is version 1.0, not the newer 1.0.1, for the GeoTour from the GeoTour page.) However, I have spent a bit of time working with Groundspeak on getting the GeoTour attribute set on every cache that is a member of the GeoTour. There are a few exceptions, I don't think EarthCaches will accept the attribute. But as of two months ago, the attribute was set on at least 98% of the GeoTour caches.
I have a recurring PQ that searches for caches published in the past week with the GeoTour attribute.
Skye.