Confucius' Cat

I think meralgia is right that completely replacing the cache is "dangerous" in the cache hider/seeker relationship. It would be stepping on toes if the cache is really not gone but simply could not be found. No one appreciates someone hiding a new cache just becasue they could not find one. Even updating the coordinates, while a good temporary fix, would not be entirely appropriate because it assumes that the cache is presently where the owner originally put it. The fact that the coordinates are off could be the result of "cache drift." i am attempting to get out to one of mine that tends to "drift" and see if I can actually FIND it so i can replace the log and restock it pursuant to a recent NM log. It has happened several times with this particular cache. If someone were to replace it for me and update the coords, i would not be upset, but i would want them to just take over the listing. It is somewhat embarrassing to not be able to find your OWN cache when everybody else is finding it OK.

3) There is a cacher in my area that went away for several years, abandoned all their caches, and was apparently unreachable and has returned and is active again. So I guess it is a hard call to make to say they "don't care"- could be any number of reasons... general: What you have encountered is pretty much what led me to stop logging online and stop posting notes which i genuinely thought were helpful to the community. I think the main issue in pointing out a problem to someone is whether one is asked or invited to comment (feedback wanted) or if one comments when not invited to do so (busy body). In logging a cache problem, I cannot see how it can be interpreted as "busy body." But I think a lot of cachers don't seem to see it that way. I perceive the publication of a cache page on a public site, offered to the entire caching community, with software designed for the posting of comments and logs, as being prima-facie evidence of a PUBLIC invitation to post appropriate comments. But apparently some cachers do not see it this way and their cache is their "baby" and you better not make any comments other than "what a cute baby!" I am slowly getting past my hurts and beginning to CAREFULLY log online again, but because of the responses of cachers to their perceived "babies" being attacked by "busy bodies," I think a lot has been lost. I no longer feel free to express myself in a log for fear of accidentally calling somebody's baby "fat." I still will not log a needs maintenance" or SBA unless there are extraordinary circumstances. (Personal note to Meralgia: Please don't misinterpret my posts. I do not consider you a "busy body." I DID (and still do) appreciate your comments- both publicly and privately- on diabetes. It was invited by the thread, wholly appropriate and your comments were very helpful. Thank You.)

This thread was originally opened THREE YEARS AGO regarding perceived safety issues with caches that, although real electrical boxes, are harmless because there is no real electricity in them. The gist of the argument of the OP being that one could open a live box by mistake. When one finds a cache disguised as an electrical box or sprinkler head or whatever common item, it DOES set a precedent in that cacher's mind and when they are about to give up on a cache they might think, "Hey, I've found caches in fake boxes before... I wonder if this is one of them..." and they could (if they are not particularly smart) open a real electrical box by mistake. Whether or not the REAL cache which that cacher found was anywhere near real electricity is irrelevant.. monkey see cache look like electrical box *oo-oo*... now all electrical boxes look like cache in monkey's eye *oo-oo*. If one has intelligence greater than monkey, most likely there will be no problem. This horse has been beaten to death in several subsequent threads. The issue in this resurrection appears to be that a cache has been denied publication because it is in a dead electrical box. I agree with Sbel111 that there is nothing in the guidelines that should prevent its being published (unless the guidelines are being re-interpreted without being re-written as seems to be the case with "agendas" and potentially non-PC statements on cache pages.) I would suggest that perhaps the best way to get the cache in question published would be to archive the existing proposal and resubmit it with the cache description simply "traditional cache at listed coordinates." There is no reason at all to mention the electrical boxes.

In placing a cache, if it's in any kind of dangerous situation, it's not only the person setting the cache responcibility to assess the dangers but it's also the person retreaving the cache. I've seen a few that I didn't want to go after and didn't. I personally don't like dams for instance. If the cache is at the base of a dam or even in eyeshot, I refuse to retrieve it. Was it the responcibility of the person setting the cache to concider my feelings towards dams? Same with the manure pile, if the smell offends you, don't retrieve it. Somebody else will find it and you'll just be out one number. If you're scared of an empty open broken electical box with no wires inside or out, just go on to the next ammo box under a bush full of spiders, ticks and snakes and we'll all be happy. By the way, I do know of a cache in a manure pin about 100 miles from here and it stunk to high Heaven when I signed the log. Jake81499 So you have duly considered whether or not you should place the cache and decided in the affirmative. Thanks for considering. That was all i asked. Too many cachers don't IMO.

I didn't see anything about teh cache not being listed because it's location doesn't excite Confucious' Cat, either. Not about whether or not it meets guidelines or even if it SHOULD be published. Basically, you can throw a film can with holes in it and a piece of already damp construction paper inside for a log book into the pit of slop under the seat of an outhouse next to a live, open, high voltage transformer with a sign that says "look for cache inside" and it WILL be published if GC simply sticks to their guidelines. But should you, as a potential cache placer, place such a cache? That was the nature of my comment. It is not that it "excites confucius' Cat" but that the potential hider should perhaps (just perhaps, that's all- nothing more than PERHAPS - no mandate intended, try not to read a mandate into it) consider whether heshe SHOULD place a cache where heshe is thinking about placing it. Is considering whether one SHOULD place a cache such a horrible consideration? Or do you enjoy looking for film cans in piles of manure?

Knowing from previous messages from you, I know you are involved in diabetes education and my being a new diabetic i can give a little insight into your background frustration (bear with me here mods, i will relate this to the topic eventually). There are many reasons a person resists "education." One of the primary reasons is self-sufficiency. People are (hopefully) taught from an early age to be as self-sufficient as possible. It soon becomes a matter of intense pride and self-esteem to take care of oneself. The along comes a disease and help would certainly be in order, but it is the nature of diabetes to be a "self-help" kind of disease in that the patient does hisher own testing and possibly injections, etc. Thus the "pride" kicks in with "I CAN take care of this by myself and i don't need no stinkin' busy bodies telling me how to do it." (Does that sound perhaps a bit like your cache email response?) Another reason for evading appointments in your business is unique to the health care industry. There are many insurance company led programs that mandate "jumping through hoops" in order to get benefits. (The insurance industry is NOTORIOUS for this kind of crap!) Furthermore they are constantly CHANGING THE RULES. (Does that sound familiar to cachers?) I would suspect that many of your clients would RATHER NOT participate in the programs "voluntarily offered" by the insurance company mandates and they fight back by avoiding the issue for as long as possible. All-in-all, I read this cacher's comments as "leave me alone, I'll get to it when i can you flippant busy body." Just MHO. I agree with the others that the "IMHO" probably comes across as "I am going to teach you something" and the cacher in question doesn't want to be taught. I think we DO take this game too seriously over all. As RK said, "Life trumps geocaching" every time.

I did appeal and got no answer. I picked the cache up this evening and will grab the coins. I did see lightning hit this pole in 2000 while I was working at the site. I guess that makes this box dangerous. I was going to take a picture and post it but forgot my phone in the truck. Anyhow, the shack was originally a TV relay for the town of Wamsutter Wyoming. It was dismantled after vandals shot it up about 30 years ago. The electricity and all the lines to the pole and shack were removed shortly thereafter. BLM wanted me to leave the pole standing for the Raptors to nest after I took over the lease. So, there has been no power or power lines to this radio shack for at least 30 years. Time and hunters have degraded the condition of the pole and box. I was mystaken when I said the lid was gone. The lid is still there. The nearest electical lines are 1/3 of a mile away, I measured it. I hope this isn't setting a precedence. Pretty soon we won't be able to set caches under rocks because there might be a snake or in a bush because there might be thorns. I was concidering placing a cache in a fake electrical outlet sticking out of the ground on a piece of conduit on the edge of some property I own in the middle of the desert 5 miles from ANY electricity. I guess that's nixed. Discusted, Jake81499 Not to speak for the reviewer or nothing, but heshe might be considering that a potential seeker might not know that there is no electric for 1/3 mile. Much electricity is run underground and the absence of wires does not guarantee the absence of electrical service. Fake electrical box caches are nothing new or unique. There are many of them out there. That there is some new prohibition on approving them is a new one on me though. Judging from recent threads, i wouldn't expect much explanation in the forums- ambuiguity on the guidelines seems to be the rule. To the larger question: If there is something you want to showcase on the land in question, why not just put an ammo box in a hollow tree? If there's nothing worth seeing in the area, why would anyone want to fiddle around with a bunch of shot-up electrical ruins just to say, "wow, a fake electrical box?"

It seems the company did not archive the cache but at the request of the owner. While that is a little strange as i pointed out earlier, it cannot be inferred that the company isn't listening to us. The best explanation I can come up with that does not involve outright lying and deceit is that the OP tired of the drama and either did not know that she could archive the cache herself or she wanted to shift the blame in some way. In any case, it seems this horse is dead. (Now we can stop beating it and start the postmortem)

Suicide by Reviewer Actually, i have never been much of an advocate for civil disobedience, but ... what if, (just what if...) EVERYONE put those words in all of their already published cache pages? Or even if just a LOT of cachers did? (answering my own rhetorical question) 1. GC would have a COW 2. cache pages would be locked the same way as coordinate changes are locked now. 3. GC would write software to remove unacceptable words and phrases much like the "auto-moderate" certain words in the fora 4. In the mean time, not much they could do but one-at-a-time edit them or archive them. And I'll probably be excommunicated for even mentioning it. Leave it to a Sapper to help you out, just have everyone add a link to a picture on an offsite page that shows cute little rabbit or something. Then on say 4 July change the picture to show big bold letters: "SUPPORT OUR TROOPS" Stand behind us or stand in front, your choice Love it! ROFL

OK Conspiracy theory seed here: I just noticed that the cache in question was archived by Michael "at the request of the owner." Very interesting indeed... The owner could not archive her cache herself? Did she REALLY request it to be archived? And what is the point in archiving it, since the illegal "thank you" note is still in the cache description for all to read? And now the owner CAN'T delete the offensive text. This is what she will get if she tries to edit it:

Suicide by Reviewer Actually, i have never been much of an advocate for civil disobedience, but ... what if, (just what if...) EVERYONE put those words in all of their already published cache pages? Or even if just a LOT of cachers did? (answering my own rhetorical question) 1. GC would have a COW 2. cache pages would be locked the same way as coordinate changes are locked now. 3. GC would write software to remove unacceptable words and phrases much like the "auto-moderate" certain words in the fora 4. In the mean time, not much they could do but one-at-a-time edit them or archive them. And I'll probably be excommunicated for even mentioning it.

Contrary to popular opinion, it IS OK to type or say "God" in the NewNited States. But it must be followed by "dadgum" to be politically correct.

We can now have a new form of geocide modeled around "suicide by cop." Rather than just archiving all of one's own caches and posting about it on the forum, one can just type the words "I SUPPORT OUR TROOPS" in all of their cache pages and wait for TPTB to archive them.

But everybody HAS seen the holy grail. (everybody with any class and a sense of humour, that is)

I don't think it's really so much about avoiding legal action as it is about trying to please everybody. While this is a noble cause, any human being that hasn't fallen off the turnip truck yesterday realises it is an impossibility. Either way they decide is a no-win situation. Therefore the best course of action for the case in point is to simply "drop it." (If we will let them) As far as some getting by and others not, when was the last time anyone got out of a speeding ticket by pointing out that there were other cars going faster than they were? For the future, the more exact the rules, the less controversy over their enforcement. But you will still have whiners that won't accept the decision of the judges. I say, bang the gavel and move on. Let them that leave, leave. Let them that join, join. The game will evolve as it evolves and if that means GC does not remain the dominant listing service, the one that takes over the leadership will have a free education in how to run the geocachiong business by studying the GC experience.

Just don't thank them on a cache page, that would be an illegal agenda.

Well, I guess TPTB succeeded in THAT, didn't they?

The local "pickle park." Just follow your congressman. He knows all the good spots.

I took your question as rhetorical. I think I'll keep thinking that. Excuse me it was not, email the answer if you don't want to answer me here. OK, the answer to your question is, "it depends." You're welcome. Thanks Thats all I wanted to know. That makes you think . My next cache ITS IN THE WOODS I'm thinking more along the lines of my next cache being listed elsewhere.

It has nothing to do with political correctness. It has to do with keeping political anything out of the sport. If you didn't have the no agenda rule there would be caches all over the place espousing this worthy cause or that one. Then what happens when when one person's idea of a worthy cause is at odds with others? Someone used the example of Planned Parenthood previously. Some people think it's a wonderful organization, while others see it as a tool of the Devil. The Boy Scouts. How could anybody have a problem with the Boy Scouts? But a lot of people do. What about caches promoting Greenpeace or the NRA? Bound to have some controversy there. Maybe even people canceling their memberships because the site would allow a cache promoting one or the other. Then take it to the next level. What about a cache promoting Aryan Nations, Communist Workers Party or even Al-Qaeda? Well most people will say they'd be a no-brainer, of course they shouldn't be published, but these organizations have their ardent supporters too. So what we will have are reviewers who are in the position of having to decide which agendas are "worthy" and which ones aren't. There is sometimes enough controversy over their decisions regarding the guidelines, which is their supposed area of expertise. Imagine the firestorm when a reviewer turns down the pet agenda of sizable portion of geocachers. Nah, it's good the way it is. Let's keep geocaching light and fun and if you want to support the troops, put a bumper sticker on your car, fly your flag, or work to ensure that pro-surrender politicians are not re-elected. I disagree. I think it has everything to do with political correctness. Once again the majority must yield to the minority so we don't hurt feelings. I'm an American. I support our troops. I believe in God. Both of those statements are taboo because of political correctness. Something is going very very wrong in this country. God bless our troops. El Diablo Personally I think it's marketing. This site sells adds and sponsors like garmin buy in. What if all those cache owners made Magellan tribute caches? Jeeps a sponsor, strangely the first I recall of the stricter line on agendas and commercialism was with a Range Rover fan. What If? What If? What If? If your aunt had balls she'd be your uncle! "What If" is one of the biggest PC cop-outs in the book. It is nothing more than a convenient straw-man argument to excuse those in positions of judgment to avoid making judgment calls. Rather than bang the gavel and say, "guilty" or "not guilty" and be done with it, knowing that either way somebody is going to be upset, one can simply say "if i decide THIS way, EVVVVERRRYBODY will want to do it" therefore I will quote some silly ZERO TOLERANCE" BS BAH! "but everybody will want one" is getting to be as trite as "it's for the chiiiilllldren." All I can say is "WOW!"

Hey ec3forme, send me your name and address. I'll use that as the return address for the galvanized pipe geocache I'm sending to President Bush. Then we'll see! Deane AKA: DeRock & the Psychic Cacher - Grattan MI Answer your door, it's the Secret Service.

This has truly become a monumental discussion.

And all this time, I thought you just liked to drive through parking lots. OK, no one has directly responded to me, but that's understandable, considering the insane amount of responses. This thing is on American Legion property, and it promotes the American Legion. What do you think the chances are I could put a cache in the Wal-Mart parking lot, and give the history of Sam Walton and the Wal-Mart chain in the cache description? I'd say I'd have no chance whatsoever of pulling that one off. I really don't see a difference here. I consider it pretty much traditional to do a little historical and background research and publish it on the cache page. IMO, that is one of the major things that separates a "lame" cache from a "worthy" cache. The OP DID take the time to write a little background and interesting historical perspective for the cache. That should be applauded. If we go to "there is a cache here, it is a film can" for the only legal cache descriptions, GC is certainly wasting a LOT of HTTP technology and caching would become the most BORING pass-time in the world except perhaps gutter-ball bowling (ala recent political showmanship). As many have stated, EVERYTHING promotes an agenda. It is indeed SAD that in the U.S. of A., alleged land of the free, there are so many things we are not FREE to discuss anymore. It is especially SAD when we are penalized for THANKING the very people who are willing to give their lives to preserve the freedom that the PC crowd is trying so desperately to throw in the rubbish bin. There is a MUCH bigger war on than the one in Iraq... It is being fought in our public forums and our public agencies right here at home, and quite frankly, the DOG is sitting lazily by and letting the TAIL wag it. Soon the "land of the free" will be only a distant memory, which itself will be wiped from the history books by the PC revisionists..

Sure... blame the geocacher. We all know global warming did it.

You know, come to think of it, the first time I got a decon of my own, which had the original contents intact, I was kinda freaked out about the warnings. Was this some kind of hazmat? What was the best way to dispose of the unwanted contents? Could I safely put them in the garbage can? Would it be a federal offence if I got caught? Would it be safe to open the packets? I encountered a glow-in-the-dark military compass with similar warnings, something like, "RADIOACTIVE" "if found return to nearest military facility." This was on a compass designed to be worn on one's wrist. How dangerous could the radioactivity BE anyway? Military warnings DO seem to be a little overboard sometimes.