adomatis

If we do nothing, there is a greater liklyhood the sport will be banned. Join others in being proactive - see the Permission Database topic in the GeoCaching.com discussion. For additional encouragement, read Interview with a Park Ranger - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS [This message was edited by adomatis on May 22, 2002 at 10:57 AM.]

OK, I have a rough version of the form on my web. See: http://www.travelbygps.com/Stash/permission.htm Your comments here, or to me directly, are more than welcome. stashmaster@travelbygps.com - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

There is a discussion regarding this subject at Geocaching.com Discussions Comments and suggestions are welcome. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

There is a discussion regarding this subject at Geocaching.com Discussions Comments and suggestions are welcome. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

I have no doubt that a permission database will get a fair amount of traffic. It would be good to build the database with relational in mind. There is an obvious relationships between The property, the management, the caches, and the cachers. As far as the user interface on the submissions side, a form with all the appropriate questions and answer selections seems straight forward. In regard to look-ups, I think keyword searching would be very important. The number of comment fileds/text boxes should be kept to a minimun, using drop-down selection boxes, radio buttons, etc when ever possible. What are the options for "Stance" Yes/no/maybe ? I do agree there should be some room for free- form comments, allowing submitters to give important details. I'll work on a form on my web that we can play around with. I invite other webmasters to do the same. Post the links here and we can practice making submissions on each other's site. What do you all think? - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

No worries Mtn-man. Regarding your comment about North Carolina, I have a cache, albiet temporarly archived, in NC newest "Gorges SP." I got permission from the superintendt. The cache is Turkey Pen #37 and I took it off-line cause evendently a bear got into it and I haven't had a chance to get up there in a while. Anyway, Case and Point, we need a database because even though there may be a general stance against GeoCaching in a given park system, individual units within the system may allow it. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Thanks DeKaner! I was hoping someone would step up to the plate. I'll have to step aside when come to the back-end stuff, I'm not a programmer, but I can help in other ways. Let's start with a list of form fields: Propery Name Property Type (NP, SP, ... Contact Name Contact Title Contact Phone Contact email Contact Address Caching Guidelines ? - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Thanks to many of you here in the forums, I was ready with good questions. "Ranger Joe," as he is known in the logs, gave me better answers than I had hoped for. You will find his words encouraging - if you are willing to play by the rules. A (.pdf) formatted version of the entire article is available at www.travelbygps.com/articles Your comments are invited. To get a park ranger's perspective on the topic of GeoCaching, Joe Anderson has agreed to share his experiences with us. Joe is the manager of Mountain Bridge Wilderness Area in South Carolina, which includes Caesars Head and Jones Gap State Park. He represents the landowners on the Foothills Trail Conference Board of Directors and is a Search and Rescue Instructor. TbGPS: Joe, you must be familiar with GeoCaching because of all the caches in your area. Tell me, in general, about the experience you've had as a park ranger with GeoCaching in the Mountain Bridge Wilderness. JA: I've never found a GeoCache that wasn't in an interesting place, and I' ve never met a GeoCacher that wasn't an interesting person. TbGPS: What is your impression of the type of people that GeoCache? JA: GeoCachers are intelligent and educated, have a source of income and are interested in protecting our natural resources. The state parks do not necessarily need the support of the public, we need the support of an informed public - GeoCachers tend to be informed. TBG: Is there a specific story about a particular cache that typifies your experience? JA: Most of my pursuits have concentrated on those GeoCaches placed inside parks. I do not participate in the sport in the conventional way as your readers probably do. Though I have enjoyed using the GPS unit a couple of times, the majority of my finds were accomplished by tracking GeoCachers - identifying signs of impact for clues. TbGPS: If I told you I wanted to place a GeoCache here in the park, what would be your reply? JA: Well I'd say, let's talk. How can your anticipated GeoCache experience complement my desired park experience? Then, we'll talk about some possible locations. I'd also ask you what your plans are for maintaining the cache. TbGPS: Alternatively, if I informed you that I had already placed a Cache here and now wanted permission (forgiveness), what would be your reply? JA: Of all the caches (there have been as many as 6 at one time) located within the boundaries of the park, no one has asked permission first and that disappoints me. Now, some have come after the fact and I've appreciated that. There are not so many that are impacting the park that I' m on a campaign to reduce the number, so I probably wouldn't tell you to remove it as long as it's in an appropriate location. The Mountain Bridge Wilderness Area will never become 'GeoCache State Park.' Too many GeoCache sites may impact the desired experience for those participating in the sport. At times I wonder though. when there does get to be too many, and someone does come to ask permission to place another cache. what about those who didn't ask permission first? Should those caches be removed to make room for a cache placed by someone who played by the rules? TbGPS: How many caches in your area would you consider to be too many? JA: GeoCaching is relatively new to the park. Though I do not have an answer to the question today, I do anticipate the day will come when I will be able to. I don't believe we have too many - yet. I do believe you can have too many in small areas. Sesquicentennial Park, for example, has 6 and I think that is too many. TbGPS: Tell me what you call a good cache or a bad cache? JA: Any cache that is in a dangerous or environmentally sensitive location makes me apprehensive. A good cache can become a not-so-good cache if its not properly maintained. The cache owner needs to be committed to making sure that 1) everyone looking for the cache has the desired experience, and 2) the area around the cache is not being adversely impacted. I like the idea of virtual caches in locations where human impact has been anticipated, like caches placed at monuments. I have to back up a little and say that I' m not so sure that caches placed in and around historical structures are a good idea. For example, shell ring at Edisto Beach State Park that was built by the Native Americans. When pictures appeared on the web of people standing on the ring, the land manager had the cache removed and no longer tolerates GeoCaching on the property. TbGPS: How do you use the online forums to manage caches in the park? JA: Well for example, the Wildcat Wayside cache had been located within 30 feet of an endangered plant and there were tracks all around it, some within inches of doing some real damage. I notified the cache owners by posting a message to the cache's online log. The cache owners were very responsive. They voluntarily gave a 30 day notice before moving the cache so that cachers currently seeking the cache would not venture all over trying to find it. TbGPS: Earlier you said that you GeoCache yourself - without a GPS. Explain how you do that. JA: Our agency has used GeoCache locations to train Search and Rescue teams. GeoCaching is a great tool to teach others how to track the movement of people through the natural and wilderness areas. TbGPS: How have you seen the Cache-in / Trash-out program at work in your area? JA: Caesars Head and Jones Gap State Parks collectively form the Mountain Bridge Wilderness Area. The "Trash-out" program complements our "Project Green" program. For example - Jones Gap is a "trash-free" park. Patrons to the park will find no trash cans - they are expected to comply with a higher standard of stewardship of "pack-it-in pack-it-out." Classified as a special resource, everyone is asked to participate in the stewardship of the place - whether picnicking, hiking, backpacking, or GeoCaching. The trash out program is an interesting campaign. Many of the opponents to GeoCaching consider the practice to be a form of littering in itself. I do not interpret the cache as a garbage or refuse form of litter. I see the sport as an interpretive tool and possibly a marketing opportunity. Case in point, simply by answering this question I have taken the opportunity to introduce our Project Green program to your readers. TbGPS: Do you have any other ideas about ways to have fun with GPS in the park? JA: The fun in GeoCaching is the hike. Many of the caches I found outside the park have taken me to places that I didn't know existed, which I have since returned to enjoy. For example, I liked the Furman University cache because it was right off the running trail so there was no additional impact with all the traffic the location gets anyway. I never knew about that trail, but I liked it so much that I've returned to Morgan Meditation with my wife and kids to enjoy sunny afternoons. TbGPS: What can you tell me about decisions that are being made in South Carolina with regard to GeoCaching? JA: The South Carolina State Park Service has taken notice of the sport. I trust that any policy we adopt will be based on informed decisions. We are in the process of establishing guidelines for GeoCaching activities on state parks. Currently, the individual park management plans will guide park managers when making decisions about the recreational activities managed on the park. TbGPS: Any final thoughts you like to leave our readers with? JA: GeoCaching is a great tool for introducing visitors to the real value of a park's resources. Properly informed, the people coming to GeoCache in the park can be real assets to helping us protect not only the park's flora and fauna, but also the recreational opportunities it has to offer. As one who has been entrusted with the stewardship of these resources, I believe GeoCaching, like any other recreational activity the park has to offer, can be managed to maximize the benefits to all park visitors. TbGPS: Thanks Joe. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Thanks Mtn-man. Good info. but this thread could get outta hand if everyone contributed. I'm hoping for a simple database with property name, contact info, and guidelines. It would be great if it was a feature of geocaching.com. I hate to have to go to another website for cache critical info. My intention is to rally a consensus, get the wheels moving. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Exactly what I needed. As promised in the "Interview with a Park Ranger" topic, I will publish a snip of my article tommorrow, after I add these footnotes. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Can someone point me to the specific NPS document that states that GeoCaching has been banned? I'm writing an article and want to make sure I've done all the research. I have found many references to the policy, but I would feel better if I could reference a specific document. Many thanks in advance, - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

There are many discussions in this forum about getting permission to place a cache. It is such an essential element of geocaching, that I can't believe that so little has been done to consolidate what info has already been collected and put it in a place on geocaching.com that is easy to find and easy to use. Do we agree that this is a good idea? - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

I have to admit that I voted "sometimes" in regard to caches's I've stashed in the past, but I would answer "always" to future placements. Here's a pole: Isn't where/permission the most important consideration in placing a cache? Isn't *not* getting permsission where permission is required the fasted way to have the cache removed and give geocaching a bad name? I've been posting messages with the subject "Authorization (Permission) Database" in several threads and asking what the status of this effort is. All I get is blank stares. It seems so central to geocaching I can't believe no one here has picked up the ball an run with it. I've been directed to a locationless cache "Meet With Your Govenment Agents" but what I'm talking about is a lookup table of proptery name, who to contact, and guidelines. It would get off to a quick start with contibutions from everyone that has sought permssion. I propose that it become a a feature of geocaching.com; I would not want to have to go to yet another web site to get info so essential to playing by the rules. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

This thead and others like it are a good reason to have all the relevent info consoladated in place where folks could look up property name, contact person, and caching guidelings. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

This thead and others like it are a good reason to have all the relevent info consoladated in place where folks could look up property name, contact person, and caching guidelings. - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

I think thought this was a really good idea when I first read about it (nearly a year ago). Does anyone have an update or know of a simular effort going on? - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

I had the first round of discussion yesterday and may finish up today. "Ranger Joe" impressed upon me how he sees GeoCaching as a way to introduce people to, and find real value in, the park's resources. He does get "apprenhisive" when he finds caches located in sensitive or dangereous areas, and he does use the logs at Geocaching.com to encourage proper maintenance. Of all the caches in his area, no one has asked permission first, and this dissapoints him. Stay tuned for the full article. Last call for suggestions. Does anyone else have a question they'd like to ask? - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

I link from each cache description page to the stash page on my web, which provide more detail to prospective seekers. Also, its a place I can keep related files, pictures, and text. Travel by GPS / Stash - Doug Adomatis Travel by GPS

Although this wasn't my original intention, I like the grassroots approach to winning-over/ winning-back the National Parks. The circulation of my article will likely be limited to my web site, local trail club newsletters and maybe the Greenville News. However, I anticipate that I will get some response beyond the Carolinas. Can somebody remind me who was working the "permission database" of contacts for various park jurisdictions? I'd like to be able to show that there is an organized effort on the side of geocachers to up front and above reproach. Douglas J Adomatis

I plan to bring up the forgiveness v. permission issue but you can imagine the response. Imagine if someone wanted to put a cookie jar in your cubical, wouldn't you want to know about it upfront? OK. so maybe that's not a perfect analogy, but you should agree that the placement of a cache within a ranger's jurisdiction will have an impact on their activities (regardless of whether they know the cache is there or not). Yes, I believe that communication is important or I wouldn't be writing the article. Time is of the essence in the Carolinas as decisions are being made regarding the Park System and GeoCaching. Again, what questions can I ask that would prompt my ranger to talk about how the Park Service and GeoCachers can work with each other to make the sport a greater good? - Doug Adomatis Douglas J Adomatis

quote:CaptHawke wrote: Why interview a ranger? I'm not so much interested in trying to change policy, as I am interested in writing an article that will defray some anxiety about playing by the rules. The interview candidates I have in mind are advocates of geocaching. I hope to show a perspective of geocaching that is encouraging.

If you could anonymously ask a park ranger a question regarding geocaching, what would you ask? I'm writing an article on geocaching and will be interviewing local authorities. I’d like to have your questions answered too. I will be focusing on issues of impact, maintenance, and “overcaching”, but I don’t want to miss an opportunity to ask other questions that would be of interest to this forum. In exchange for your Qs, I will post the completed article here. Please reply, Doug Adomatis