geomann1

You found the cache, had some fun, maybe even learned something. Why get upset over a smiley? Does it really matter. If an owner is a problem, just ignore his/her caches in the future.

Sounds like a pretty petty move. But I hope you take GOF & Bacall's suggestion to heart if you want to pose this question to someone else in the future. Delivery can make all the difference in the electronic world. Good decision in my opinion! Forget about it and keep having fun. Personally, I keep my own "official" cache record in a notebook, so I don't have to deal with obnoxious owners. I log on line just to thank the owner. Honestly, why would anyone care about an online cache score; we really are not competing with anyone. As far as the cache owner in question, I would just ignore all of his other caches. Why bother dealing with unpleasant people when you don't have to?

Are you kidding me? I hope your not referring to the circumstances that started this thread. Those people went caching in a leash-free dog park! There were signs that said as much! Then they have the balls to freak out when their kid gets jumped on by a dog.......that wasn't on a leash?! Seriously, use your brain people. You don't go walking through Compton and then complain that you were beat up or worse. You just don't. I'm a dog owner, but I don't necessarily condone leash-free dog parks. Why? Because dogs are unpredictable animals and I would never take my small dog into one let alone my child. But if I did and something bad happened, I wouldn't have anyone to blame but myself because I should have known better. You missed the point, the area was not an official designated leash-free dog park (for which I agree you enter at you own risk), but rather an area that was informally used as a leash-free dog park. There is a beach near me that is informally used as a leash-free dog park. That some dog owners choose to let there dogs run free, which is technically illegal as most urban/suburban areas have leash laws, does not mean that all none dog owners loose their right to safely enjoy the beach. Bottom line, pet owners are 100% responsible for the actions of their pets!

Dogs should be kept on lease unless they are in on private property, in a designated fenced area or off lease area, or an area in which they know for a fact that other people will not be present. The fact that an area may be informally used as a "dog park" is irrelevant. Many dog owners are in a state of denial about the vicious or uncontrollable nature of their dogs. In way too many instances after a vicious mauling of a child, the owner insists that their dog is good and it wasn't its fault.

I like your list and would add 11. Magnetic key holders stuck under things or in guardrails. 12. Caches in dirty, garbage strewn areas. Personally, I've greatly reduced my caching out of sheer boredom. What I I find as acceptable are: 1. Caches placed in scenic or interesting locations that ideally involve a nice walk in pleasant surroundings. 2. Caches that involve some genuine creativity.

Agreed Agreed. For the Riffster Clan, the practice of logging finds, DNFs, etc seems pretty simple. No need for complications. However, I don't consider the standards I apply to myself to be handed down from on high. I've seen some logging methods on my caches which caused me to scratch my head, but I would never consider the person whose logging type differs from mine to be a "cheater". I've never deleted a find from one of my caches, and, other than someone plopping out a new cache because they couldn't find my existing one, I couldn't imagine doing so. There are a rare few out there of whom I would say have a "poetic concept of reality" (to avoid the term cheater), in that I have had caches logged as found when they were disabled because the cache is no longer there. I just let it slide because its really not my problem and its not hurting anyone. What matters to me is how I play the game.

Just because something is not specifically excluded by the guidelines does not make it a good idea or absolves one of personal responsibility to do the right thing. Clearly, messing around with electrical equipment, sprinkler heads, etc. is not a bright idea, so why place caches that would encourage irresponsible activities? "Because I can get away with it" is hardly an intelligent or moral basis for living ones life. These types of caches are certainly not new, so one is really not being clever in placing these types of caches. Frankly, I just don't see the point.

I totally agree, In my neck of the woods there are some parks that are prime cache hiding locations, but are already at about saturation. I see no harm in waiving the 500 ft rule to allow for more clever caches, so long as they would not interfere with existing caches.

Seeing what i have seen, i dont think that is unreasonable at all. It seems very reasonable. Too many people just don't care. When i started caching i thought that a cacher would have a special respect for the environment and nature and all that. Someone here on the boards corrected me. Cachers are people just like everyone else. ie. Some of them just dont care. Its a shame. I have come across very obvious damage done by irresponsible cachers. Clearly everyone is responsible for their own behavior, but that does not give cache owners a free pass. When one places a cache, it is important to anticipate the potential for people to do damage. Assume the worse, but hope for the best. I have stated in the cache descriptions for example that the cache is not associated with irrigation/sprinkler system or anything electrical, so leave them alone. As has been discussed in other threads, it also irresponsible to place a cache that will encourage future bad behavior, such as placing a fake sprinkler head cache.

I have 13 finds as of right now. I have to say that Every. Single. Cache I've found has been a micro. (Magnetic key holder, bring your own pencil) I take that back. One was a nano. Very difficult to sign that log! There was one that I had to visit twice because it was in a very busy parking lot. There were a few places that it could have been. I actually laughed out loud when I lifted the lamp post skirt and there it was. I'm glad I'd been coming to these forums or I probably wouldn't have found it! Some of them were in pretty cool places and a few of them were hard to find. So far I'm really enjoying this. I know there are several medium sized caches in the area, I just haven't gone after them yet. When spring gets here, I'll be happy. I'm really looking forward to placing a few caches of my own. None of them will involve a sign post though. I took my daughter caching with my this past Sunday. We only got 4. She got to sign her name but she really wanted to find some treasure. I can totally see that. When discussing a cache location, we try to do the following. Make the cache meet at least one (or both!) of these two criteria: -The cache should be in a location that is pleasant. -The cache should be an interesting or different hide. Way TOO many caches are pill bottles or film cans wrapped in camo tape chucked in a random hole somewhere. What is the fun in that? (Whoopee! I have own more caches than you! ) I totally agree. From my own experience, when I started out I would look for almost any cache and got to 200 finds or so rather quickly. My find rate has tailed way off, because too many caches are as noted by others are dull micros. I simply won't go out of my way to find an LPC or magnetic key holder stuck to or under something, or a film canister in a hole and in landscaping. Its boring and as I don't care about my count, pointless. What I will look for are caches that involve a nice hike somewhere or take me to someplace pleasant or interesting. Unfortunately there are not too many in my neck of the woods that I have not already found. It is clear that the original intent of geocaching has been subverted from a treasure hunt/adventure, to a numbers game, with the result being a spew of dull micros. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with a clever, well thought out micro.

[ That is a foolish and very selfish idea. That means all of the original caches still in existance would be purged so you can have more smilies. Nothing to do with smilies, which I don't care about, but having caches in nearby parks to do, which I do care about. As far as original caches, does it really matter under which bush or pile of rocks a cache in located? No reason not to move them. . As as may own caches, I will/have practice what I preace, once the number of finds tails off, I will archive and move container to a new location

I would like to see a time limit (1 or 2 years) set on all caches to keep the sport fresh. I've found all the caches at some nearby parks, which are now at saturation. Archive them and rehide the caches, so that the locals can enjoy caching at prime locations again.

The person who found it first, found it first, irrespective of what the owner may think. The only issue is who gets the online FTF credit, which when if you really think about it is meaningless. They is way too much competition among anonymous strangers, at least on these boards.

I think every owner would be totally turned off of GC if they were told that if they didn't delete fake logs their cache would be archived. Especially without telling them HOW they're supposed to figure out if a log was fake short of visiting their hides to validate a log entry soon after the entry is made. Are you willing to do that yourself????? Harsh...? No more harsh then a colonoscopy... and sounds about as much fun, too. Bet a lot of people would be signing up to play that game! Like maybe none. I suspect that GC does not give a hoot about this issue. If it is important to an owner that he/she validate all the finds logged on his/her caches then he/she is free to do so as the owner of the cache. Cache owners also have the right not to care about the issue, and approach cache placement just as a nice way to allow others to have fun. Cachers also have the option to ignore the caches of owners whom they feel are too hard core to deal with. The great thing about the sport is that it has the flexibility to allow people to approach it as they feel best, irrespective of what some self styled purists may think.

We have quite of few venous snakes in Florida, one just watches on step. A state snake expert once told me that statistically, the most common victims are drunk white males who were messing with the snake. That being said, I knew one person who was bit by a venous snake (pygmy rattlesnake), he was walking in a area with common snakes wearing flip-flops and the snake was under his car and bit him on the foor while he was opening the trunk. I've found (and killed) 4 on my property (3 pymgy's [1 I mwed over] and a water moccasin trying to get in the garage). Normally, I leave them alone, but with kids I don't want them around the house.

I have a simple rule: I only log a cache as a find if I found it. Geocaching rules really are not that complicated!

I have a simple rule: I only log a cache as a find if I found it. Geocaching rules really are not that complicated!

I will question no ones integrity and will seek professional help if I ever reached a point in life where it was important enough to me that I would bother to cross-check a logbook versus electronically logged finds to seek out bogus smilies. Folks it just not that important to worry about

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHA.... GOOD ONE! The Marshalls on the course couldn't give a flying cr@p about the intergrity of the game of golf. He cares about his job which is to protect the property of the golf course. That Marshall would stand and watch you take 20 drops beside a water hazard, help you write in a low score, laugh when you yelled when your buddy was putting, and all without whispering a word (as long as you weren't holding up his paying customers) but drive your cart on his green and he'll go ballistic on you. Trust me, I know a few, and the rules and integrity of golf are VERY FAR DOWN his list of priorities. Maybe those rangers need to take better interest in their job and the game of golf? I co-own a golf course, we do care about the integrity of the game and the course as well. You come out and play at our course and we're going to be watching (as best we can, we're not baby-sitters). As was mentioned, you let a bunch of people go crazy out there golfing (yelling at their frineds, throwing their clubs or otherwise acting the fool...stuff that isn't golf), they have the potential to bother the older golfers who truly take the game seriously...you will get our attention (you'd be surprised at how quickly I can pick up on negative activities). You want to throw your golf ball to your buddy, have a friendly game of golf with your rules, fine...it isn't golf (in the true sense), but it doesn't hurt anyone. HOWEVER, here's where the analogy comes to play...if you make false claims about your score while bragging in the clubhouse and happen to have scored a club record (liken this to falsely claiming to find a hard cache), you're score will be posted in the clubhouse (much like your find is shown on the cache page for all fellow hunters who have that cache on watch) for others to see and try to beat (and others WILL try). You brag about a hole-in-one (liken to faking a day's finds of number runs or reaching a few high find milestones) and that is put in the paper, you are awarded prizes (much like the awards given to milestone makers??) by local businesses and golf equipment manufacturers (manufacturers of golf balls, clubs, gloves etc that you used while lying about this feat). No matter how much you want to say that this isn't a competition, there are those who do "keep score" (not myself), there are those who look for the "course record", there are those who award the "hole-in-ones". Does that course record mean anything at another course? SURE! My "stats" are carried over to wherever we go (say like Tiger Woods is expected to win many of the touney's he's entered in), I'm given a low handicap. Similarly, one who lies about their finds elsewhere have their stats follow them. You come to my "course" (cache) with a (bloated) high find count and post a find to a cache which some hadn't found (because it's missing), I'm more likely to believe you found it and it could stop me from making a check on my missing cache. My finding you lied (if I get suspicious and check on this) really hurts your integrity, I would likely tell all my friends and word will spread rapidly (seen this happen so I know this to be true). Tell me that those who honored this person with awards and events aren't going to be a bit peeved! Since we are talking about golf, let me take a shot at it with my foot wedge (winter rules!). Posted scores only matter in competetive club golf, in which case one normally has witnesses (playing partners) who sign card (verify find). The lone golfer who claims a hole-in-one or to have broken the club record is given no creedance (but if the hole-in-oner is buying drinks, I will have one), nor would that likely ever make the local papers. USGA rules don't count solo unwitnessed rounds in official handicaps. So going back to caching, if one is competing than it is legitimate to have a system in place for verification of finds. If one is not competing than the issue is moot. Although I agree with others that it is more than a little pathetic for someone to log caches that he/she did not find (irrespective of signing logbook silliness), just as in golf it would be to claim a false hole in one.

Cache owner's can pretty much do what ever they want. If one is a jerk, just ignore his/her caches. There are over 500,000 caches I believe out there, so ignoring they very few problem owners is no big deal.

Maybe it has nothing to do with anybody's find count and they just don't like cheaters. I was going to point out that I'm not upset, but I like your response better. You cannot cheat or be cheated unless you are competing with some one. Seems to me that there are two group in geocaching, (1) the competitors who cheat or are concerned about others cheating and (2) the non-competitors from whom geocaching is a personal activity done for personal enjoyment and satisfaction. Neither group is right or wrong, its just a question of personal attitude towards the sport. I fall in the latter category, so it is very silly from my perspective to get worked upon over the legitimacy of finds. It is only important to me that I found a cache to my satisfaction. I don't really care about what anyone else does so far as logging finds.

I'll never understand why someone else's stats mean so much to other people. Particularly that stats of strangers! This is the million dollar question. In my opinion, falsely logged finds are a threat to the status of hard liners, who are seeking to obtain 'alpha' cacher status.

If geocaching has rules, they are unlike the rule of monopoly or golf. The rules as most often stated are: 1. Take something from the cache 2. Leave something in the cache 3. Write about it in the logbook Even these seem to get debated since they mention trading and you can't really trade in a log only micro or if you find a cache that has nothing in it but the log, geocache note, and a pencil. Note that the "rules" say nothing about logging online. I prefer to look a geocaching as very simple activity. You go out and find caches. The logging of your finds on geocaching.com or any other website is not geocaching. The online logs serve as a way for geocachers to keep track of their finds record their experience in a blog for others to see thank cache owners for the hide let the owner and others know when there is a problem with a cache Bogus logs may be a misuse of the online logs but can't possibly degrade geocaching itself. Excellent point, which is also the spirit of sport in the official getting started section as below: Step 4 – The Find Huzzah! You found the cache! Congratulations! Now what? Usually you take an item and leave an item, and enter your name and experience you had into the log book. Some people prefer to just enter their name into the log book. It’s an accomplishment enough to locate the cache. Make sure to seal the cache and place it back where you found it. If it had some rocks covering it, please replace them. It’s pretty straightforward. Remember that waypoint we suggested you create where your car/trail was located? Use that now to get back! You’ll be glad you had it. When you get home, email the person who hid the cache and let them know you found it! They’re always happy to know the condition of their cache and it’s nice to know that people are looking for them. The trading and logging of the cache are peripheral issues!!!!!! According to the above a cache is found when you found it (duh). The trade and logging are something you do after the cache is found. Once I find the cache, I've acheived my goal; anything beyond that is a nicety to the cache owner. All of the problems (degradation issues) stem from the fact that ones find count on GC is public, which brings out the worse (obsessive competetiveness) in a small faction of the cachers in either (1) logging false finds or (2) becoming obsessive about others scores.

Letterboxers say have come up with a system that works as follows. you find the letterbox you stamp the log book in the letterbox with your custom personal stamp you stamp your personal log with the custom stamp in the letterbox Now say you meet another letterboxer. You can show each other your personal logs. They probably will accept you found as many letterboxes as you have stamps. Perhaps you could make some fake stamps and put these in your log to inflate your numbers, but given the time and effort to make a custom stamp you're not likely to do this more than once or twice They can also recognize the stamps that they have in common and know that they found some of the same letterboxes. A letterbox owner can look in their letterbox and see the stamps in the log book. They may recognize the stamps of other letterboxers they have seen in other letterboxes. They may see Trailhead Tessie's boot and know she has visited their box. If they don't see her boot, they probably figure Trailhead Tessie didn't find there box. But maybe Trailhead Tessie did find the box and didn't have her stamp with her. If she had a pen, she might have signed the log. If she had some paper she might also be able to make an image of the stamp in the box. But what if she could not do this? Would she go on AtlasQuest.com and log that she found the box? She might, but I bet if she did someone would start a thread in the Atlasquest message board about bogus logs degrading letterboxing. I sort of agree that we don't need to turn geocaching into letterboxing. Cache owners who wish to take the time can use the cache logbook to confirm finds. They will have to make a personal choice as whether to let stand logs where the person has given an excuse for not signing the log. They will have to make judgments on what to do if the log or the cache goes missing. Other cache owners will resort to the honor system and let logs stand that aren't obviously bogus stand. Still other owners may be intentionally allowing some bogus logs. They may be using a definition of a find that includes armchair logging or "since you looked in the right place you can claim a find" or they may simply be ignoring their responsibility to maintain their cache page. This is the system we currently have and as far as I'm concerned it works satisfactorily since I can use it to keep track of my finds. I don't believe that the letterbox system was designed as a way of verification of finds, but rather is a creative way to personalize the activity. I.e., it is nice to collect in your book the individualized stamps of different people. The much worse degradation to the sport is to introduce cyncism of others actions and motives. I would rather live with (ignore) the fact that some people will cheat, then deal wth the negativism of insisting that people need to prove their honesty. Actually, all these posts on letterboxing have convinced me that I should have a stamp made. More finds to go after!!!

I agree 110% with what you have written above. My ONLY fears when geocaching, regarding what I might encounter near the cache, are as follows, and are very realistic: fear of being abducted by space aliens, particularly the alien grays from Zeta Reticuli, and then being subjected to their medical experiments and those annoying brain implants in the surgery room of the alien mothership hovering in geosynchronous orbit over Groundspeak headquarters. fear of being abducted by Dr. Phil McGraw, whom, I fear, will confront me as part of an attempted publicity ambush/stunt and announce to me that he is gonna perform a forced "intervention" on me (much as he tried to do with with my buddy Britney two weeks ago in her hotel room, till she threw him out) because he has decided that I am addicted to geocaching and that it is getting out of control. MAJOR fear of being abducted by a band of beautiful hottie wild Amazon women who would then keep me in their wilderness camp and force me to provide services for them to help keep them happy. Good golly gosh, I would REALLY hate that! Really! I have some similar fears: * Top of the list - coming upon a an albino playing the banjo and bunch a hillbillies in the woods - The movie "Deliverance" gives me the creeps. There are some things I won't do for a smilie. * Fear of looking for a cache in a shopping center and finding myself between Oprah and the lunch buffet. * A Florida favorite, being captured by a senior tourist from up north in a big car traveling 40 MPH in the passing lane, who bores me to death with stories about the good old days, how they do things better in (Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, etc.), his/her recent operation, and why the governments owes him/her.