JPreto

Thanks you very much for your input... A grounded opinion!!!! The original post says it all... If there isn´t even an agreement if the Official Guidelines are geocaching laws or just some recommendations how the game should be played why shouldn´t everything else be opened to interpretation? That is why I opened this topoc, to understand how the forum users think about it... And I am aware that most geocachers are not forum users so, it has the importance that it has... I always express my own opinion, not trying to make a rule out of it... because for some there are geocaching rules, for others only recommendations, for others there are reviewers that don´t allow them to be creative... Pick a color, you will find someone that likes the same color you have chosen! My vision of geocaching and my interpretation is just that, my vision/opinion and my interpretation. I also understand that most creation comes from trying to what others didn´t do before or: "Imagination is the beginning of creation" - G. B. Shaw "Only Dead Fish Go With The Flow" - ???? But I prefer: "Have no fear of perfection, you will never reach it!" - Salvador Dali What I mean with this is that, like other sports, I believe that geocaching can be a great game to be played by all ages, with different goals and it doesn´t even have to be scored (like some believe is the goal) and would like to see it played the way it was intended, otherwise call it another thing, like "Waymarking", I really feel it is a variation of the geocaching game, for people that didn´t want or didn´t like to place containers. Fact is, more and more geocacher´s associations are being made and this, wanting or not, will make the way people geocache different in one place from the other. Local rules will increase and the way geocache is played among different societies will change. Just an example, the sub-game FTF, never adopted by Groundspeak but the fact is, almost everybody that is a FTF in a cache writes it on the log and somehow makes a count of those "rare" geocaches... "rare" because in some countries is very rare, here in Brazil it´s common... Right now I have 2 caches within 4 km placed over 2 weeks that are still to be found, no one goes to them running like in other places. Thing is, and my first topic asked just that: Geocaching guidelines proposed by Groundspeak are to be followed as rules for the Geocaching game in the listing site "www.geocaching.com"?

I assume you're relating your perceptions about the reviewers with whom you've had dealings and not all reviewers. Our reviewers, for example, are both guideline enforcers and helpers/advisors. Even your reviewers might have worn both these hats when working with geocachers other than yourself. It's also possible that reviewers who have worked with you might remember situations where they've provided you with help and advice, which you might not recall. I´m not saying they aren´t helpers/advisors sometimes... I´m saying that their main activity is guideline enforcing. For me it should be the other way around, and I´m saying that this fact is mostly because of us, the players, not all of us... but most of us, unfortunately! Sure I speak for the reviewers I deal with, I can´t speak about the ones I don´t know nor deal with. EDIT: Just one more thing, most if not all reviewers are also geocachers! I suspect that it's just a matter of perception. From a reviewer's point of view, I bet that the focus is on getting caches listed. It's just that part of that process is a guidelines review. One data could clear this point out: "number of caches not approved to publish" vs "number of cases where geocachers asked for help before sending the cache for approval" But I suspect we will never have that... Just a curious case of "published caches" vs "refused caches" would be nice for analysis. But I suspect that many caches need a "reviewer note" from the reviewer before being published... Even more in countries where geocaching is not big (like Brazil where I geocache) where some people place caches before knowing and understanding the game. I published my first cache only after 300 finds because I wanted to understand the game before placing any cache... and even after that, my first Multi-cache had some "reviewers notes" before being published, because it didn´t respect the guidelines. I corrected the mistakes and it was published. Just for you to have an idea how small the game is in Brazil, there are today 12 (twelve) players in Brazil with more than 200 registered finds and only 7 (seven) with more than 300 registered finds! Total active caches is around 2000 (two thousand)...

I assume you're relating your perceptions about the reviewers with whom you've had dealings and not all reviewers. Our reviewers, for example, are both guideline enforcers and helpers/advisors. Even your reviewers might have worn both these hats when working with geocachers other than yourself. It's also possible that reviewers who have worked with you might remember situations where they've provided you with help and advice, which you might not recall. I´m not saying they aren´t helpers/advisors sometimes... I´m saying that their main activity is guideline enforcing. For me it should be the other way around, and I´m saying that this fact is mostly because of us, the players, not all of us... but most of us, unfortunately! Sure I speak for the reviewers I deal with, I can´t speak about the ones I don´t know nor deal with. EDIT: Just one more thing, most if not all reviewers are also geocachers!

I think that a big problem that we have is that people don't actually make much of an effort to understand the listing guidelines. For instance, the guidelines specifically state that physical stages of a multi-cache are not constrained by the 0.1 mile rule: "Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements." The guideines even have a graphic to explain this concept. Busted. Now that right there is funny. Busted? Are you a cache cop????

I think that a big problem that we have is that people don't actually make much of an effort to understand the listing guidelines. For instance, the guidelines specifically state that physical stages of a multi-cache are not constrained by the 0.1 mile rule: "Additionally, within a single multi-cache or mystery/puzzle cache, there is no minimum required distance between physical elements." The guideines even have a graphic to explain this concept. Maybe I´ve explain myself badly... multi-caches physical stages in respect to other caches, not within the same geocache.

Try to say this to a big company Brand Manager!!!! For me, guidelines are rules aplied to a specific set of situations or events. Like all rules, there may be exceptions made by the authorities on that specific set of rules. Example: A cop can see you speeding and not fine you. In this case the cop is disobeying 2 laws, one by not applying the law (misconduct) and another by defrauding the government (collusion), you only disobeyed one, speeding. A reviewer can know you place a buried cache and allow you...See my point? The case here is that in "real life" people make decision that are convenient for their interests and if a person feels that the law is not that fearful so, let´s break it in our interests. I think this also applies in Geocaching, since the cops are the Reviewers, which actually shouldn´t be that but the fact is they are guidelines enforcers instead of helpers or advisers basically because of players that, by not reading the guidelines (even tho they click saying that the cache follows the guidelines) or just trying to bend the guidelines in their favor, make Reviewers what they are today. Back to the first point, for what I see each geocacher feels that he should play the game the way he wants but the fact is, the game should be played the way Groundspeak wants! This is my point of view! For instance, do I agree with GS not allowing physical stages of a multi-cache to be inside the 161m... No I don´t! Sometimes it would be very nice to be able to put multi-stage physical caches inside that area but I will not even try to do it, I know that is the way GS planned the game to be played and I am going to respect that! Most sports have Federations/Associations that manage that sport´s rules. In this case our Federation/Association is Groundspeak which is privately owned, like most Federations/Associations: Soccer - FIFA Basketball - FIBA or NBA Tennis - ITF Golf - R&A or PGA When you play any of these sports do you try to play by the rules or do you try to bend the rules? Let´s put Soccer, just as an example: If you throw yourself to the floor pretending to have been fouled you get a Yellow card. This rule was made up not long ago because players would try and trick the referee simulating that the other player tackled them when that wasn´t the fact. This is a clear example of 1) players trying to bend the rules and 2) the rules adapting to the new situations. Again I ask, what type of player you are? And why do you think guidelines are not rules?

I guess you belong to a small minority then. The help center and the geocaching 101 contain many things that are purely meant to help someone looking for information, but are not meant as rules which harm someone when they are not followed. So what do you think of this Help Center article, just to put out an example. Is it something you should follow, like a rule or just a idea? I see it as a rule!

For your consideration. If the tree is dead are you "harming the plant"?... Come on... let´s define dead? Because, I don´t know your knowledge on plants, the one I have shows me that until all plant cells are dead, the plant is still alive. Even if the plant seems dead, if a cell is alive, under specific conditions a plant can be regrown out from it. See "protoplasts" for your reference... On the contrary on humans, the dead/alive status is very discussed since we cannot yet become "alive" again if only one cell is alive. At least until we can selectively differentiate cells from a single cell. Don´t put cloning here because it´s actually just Nuclear or DNA replication... Do you want to go on with this?

You mentioned the reviewers... you put them here! As the people that enforce the "guidelines" but don´t enforce the "geocaching 101"... right?

I wrote my opinion, just that! I try to compare the actions of people (generally speaking) with geocachers (a part of the people) and their actions in life. I wouldn´t like to go into very deep fields but, if you see something that it is against a law and don´t act upon it you are cooperating with the action. For me, guidelines and help center are the law in geocaching! Which is???????

Sorry not to agree... Here is a part of the guidelines that some reviewers don´t follow: So if you place a birhouse in a tree with nails/screws you are harming the plant, right? But some reviewers allow caches like these to be published... For me guidelines or geocaching 101 or help center is all the same: "Some reviewers follow, others don´t!"

It depends. Are we talking about the Guidelines or the Geocaching 101 which is what was referenced in the original thread? Guidelines I consider to be fairly regimented rules with exceptions possible is very specific situations. Geocaching 101 I consdier as orientation ideas. You also forgot the HELP CENTER, for me they are all the same: Ideas/rules/guidelines made by the people who manage the listings about the game in geocaching.com!

pinned to the chest of one Hester Prynne - or anyone else who dares to question the puritan interpretation of guidelines I love you too Ms. Hester Prynne!!!! I have a word for you, in Japanese culture, "MIYABI".

First, neither of the sources you cited are the Groundspeak guidelines. They are simply advice on how to geocache. Secondly, I agree some people certainly twist guidelines (and "how to" advice) to suit their own purposes. Come on, let´s not spoil the Original Post... can we please continue HERE?

In another topic the user NYPaddleCacher wrote something that really made me think: I gave my opinion that I transcribe here: But my question is, how do you view the guidelines: a- Like a game rule book? b- Like some orientation ideas? c- Like some words that idealists wrote? d- Guidelines, never seen them... e- Whatever!!!! f- None of the above, I have another opinion... Thanks for the answers!!!!

I totally agree with this... And when I see things like these, and talk to the reviewers or post something on a cache, I´m called CACHE COP! But it´s the same in everything in life, some just think that they are "smarter" or "wiser" than others and don´t have to follow some guidelines made, in my opinion, to protect the quality of the game. This is society, the majority wins. Like the reviewers say: "Work with the reviewers not against them" but the fact is, most people don´t like the reviewers, considered them "constrainers of the creative movement" and instead of helping them in their work, they try to bend the guidelines in order to have their wishes fulfilled. These for me are egoist people, more worried about their personal objectives rather than a common objective that for me, in geocaching, should be: "Have fun, respect the game, nature and others" I have continued this issue in another TOPIC HERE not to spoil this OP topic... please answer there!

-CJ- Don´t be disappointed with other person´s opinions... They are just that, OPINIONS! Sometimes you like them, sometimes you hate them but nevertheless they are opinions... I can always learn from any opinion, even if I don´t agree with it. In my case, I opted to write my logs in Brazil in a different language because I think with that the audience will be greater, even because google translate will be more correct translating from English to Portuguese rather than the other way around, yet another reason for me to write my logs in English when I found caches in Brazil. In any case, most Brazilians think I am just being an arrogant Portuguese guy, that comes to Brazil and does things his way, not caring about national culture... That is the burden i carry from my ancestors that colonized Brazil 500 years ago. I can live with that and still enjoy playing geocaching and going to all the caches other players place, no matter the nationality, race or language they write in their logs! If I couldn´t write in any other language I would not use google translate but write it in the language I know, at least I am writing something I agree with and not something that can have words I don´t mean. For example, if I say in Brazilian: "Cache legal!" In google translate to english is: "Legal cache!" Imagine that I picking up a cache in the US and I don´t know any other language rather than Brazilian if I would use the google translate I would seem like a very silly guy "Legal cache"? the CO would probably say, what is he trying to say with that? But if I write it in Brazilian, the only language I know, if any Brazilian or Portuguese geoacacher reads the log will immediately say: "we must go and get this cache" because the actual correct translation for English would be "Cool cache!", very different from the google translate "Legal cache!" Hopes this answers your original questions!!!! Cheers and enjoy!

I have good example here in Brazil... I am Portuguese, so my mother language is Portuguese (PT-PT) but I´m living now in Brazil, mother language here is Brazilian (PT-BR) which is very similar so Portuguese but different enough so that my wife and I, she is Brazilian, sometimes we have problems communicating and make ourselves understand each other. Here in Brazil Geocaching is not a big thing yet, only around 2000 active caches in the 5th biggest country in the whole world. This also shows that most geocachers here are not Brazilians but foreigners. This is the data from last 2 years: Total players that have residence in Brazil: 2012 - 208 2013 - 322 2014 - 255 Total players that have found caches in Brazil: 2012 - 673 2013 - 993 2014 - 575 So, from this date you can clearly see that most geocachers in Brazil are foreigners, 67,5% to be more precise. My caches are all written in 2 languages: Portuguese from Portugal and English. Here in Brazil, as I am not willing to write all my logs in 2 languages, I do them all in English, which is for me the majority of the listeners (non-Brazilian Geocachers) but when I am in Portugal I write in Portuguese since there, the majority of the geocacher is Portuguese, like 99% of the logs. I have been severely criticized by local Brazilian geocachers because of my attitude but I really feel that this is the way to do it: "writing for the biggest audience". If I would go to Russia I would certainly write in English but imagine I was Spanish and couldn´t understand neither russian nor English, in what language should I write my Russian Caches logs? For sure in Spanish...

Stop reading things that aren't there. You may pesonally believe that throwdowns are wrong, but Groundspeak has never taken this position. Here the guidelines... I quote for you: This means Groundspeak is in favor of Throwdowns? And you can stop stalking me...

They shouldn´t!!! It goes against guidelines: "Listings must contain accurate GPS coordinates." So if you do that on purpose you are going against the guidelines of the game...

Here in Brazil some geocachers asked me why was logging DNFs!!!! They said it makes less people visit those caches. Imagine what they did when I started posting NMs (141 until now, 60 leading to Disable/Archive) and NAs (22 until now, 11 archived and 9 on the way there, 2 of then the reviewers didn´t accept)... Let´s just say I don´t have any friends here, most of them play a different game that I play! I think it all depends on the geocaching society you are dealing with... Different places adopt different habits!

I have a protocol: 1) Approach GZ and look for about 10min. 2) After 10min I look at the logs and pictures. 3) Another 10 minutes of search. 4) If I still can´t find it I look at hint and spoiler 5) Now it all depends on how much I want to find the cache... sometimes I look for 10min, sometimes 1h!

He is not geocache police "Cache cop" as some put it... Otherwise he would know the rules of the game! So should you! It´s not that complicated to read them at least once...

Also replacing a cache that doesn´t belong to you is making a Throwdown... It is not approved by Groundspeak!!!

Bom trabalho! Por acaso não tens estes dados de Portugal? Acho que neste momento, comprando estariamos em 2008... e foi a partir desse ano que o geocaching deu um grande pulo. Existe uma teoria sobre estatisticas chamada "valor critico" e acho que estamos nesse ponto.