egami

1. I believe PAF does in our area. 2. I agree it PAF may not always be a spoiler. I don't think the method of contacting the owner changes anything. I think the point briansnat and others are making are on caches owned by people who don't want any clues given out beyond that which is provided in the initial cache listing. And, in fairness, I think it's a valid consideration to not give clues for caches you don't own and don't know if the owner wants more clues given.

Working in IT this concept was a bit misleading to me. I was under the impression that I'd essentially be able to run a query on the fly in the field with connection to Internet or to GC.com. When, in actuality, you run the query and get the results in your "pocket". If you want something you can kind of "query" with in the field you can use GSAK on a PC and someone with hands on experience on the PDA side maybe can clarify that particular aspect...I don't use a PDA currently.

I don't see the encryption method to be an answer. An encrypted log just begs "look at me". Well, that's subjective...and the point wasn't so much that it was 'the' answer, but I don't think it's fair to say it's not an answer. True, there is that "look at me" aspect, and some deal better than others, but conversely at least it's discrete and at the end of the day the cache owner still has final authority. I guess if that isn't the point of it being implemented I don't see what it was...

I am not contesting the nature of placing a cache there. If you are so confident in your assertion about the existence of a cache being perfectly legal to begin with then it should be no problem verifying this with campus authorities. More than likely you'll get permission anyway. I know at least one of the local campuses here has given permission. I know the head of the security and I'll be asking him regarding the "legality" aspect of it, but I am fairly confident that if the university controls the property they'd be well within their authority to deny a cache based on similar experiences when I was working with campus security many years ago.

If your friends jumped of a bridge would you do it? No, but if my GPS told me to I would...

Having worked campus security I can tell you first hand you are wrong. We did this numerous time with individuals doing perfectly "legal" things that we didn't have specific policy for. There were numerous times we had to tell people they couldn't do something that on paper was "legal" to do on private property, but that we felt was potentially damaging, endangering or potentially created a safety issue. And we did not need a SPECIFIC rule about it to enforce it either. And, I never state you said it was a free-for-all, I just made that comment. So, I am sure you are well aware that I never said universities can make any rule they please. And as far as your homeless person example...having worked campus security, again, if we had found someone doing this we would assist them in getting to a shelter or place designed to help this person. It didn't happen during my tenure, but it did actually happen on our campus the year after I left. He didn't even have a tent...he was sleeping under a bench, which is perfectly legal. You can recite whatever you want to about 1st amendment rights, but I have practical firsthand experience with a very similar environment. I am not an expert, I am not a lawyer, but I know that much of your "perception" is blatantly incorrect on the issue. Again, go place a cache on the front lawn of the local law enforcement office which is also "public" property and start a lawsuit when they remove it. I'll bet a paycheck on it that you don't win. Same thing on a campus...the university is not obligated to allow a cache to exist if they deem it a potential problem for any one of several basic reasons previously mentioned. If they do, great...it's a non-issue when you get permission, which it the point.

Parking lot lamp posts, most of the time, are on private property. There are occasions where I've seen them on the ROW, but rarely.

lol, great signs...like the sea-monster one.

Legislators do not have to make laws for geocaching on university property. If a security guard feels a suspicious activity is questionable he has the authority to make that decision at the time if no policy is in place. If subsequently the university chooses to allow it, then there is no harm done. If they choose not to, then that is also within their rights. Public property is not a free for all and just because it's state owned it does not give you an inherent right to do whatever you please, regardless of legality. This isn't about legality...universities, and other controlling entities of public land, post rules that must be followed with legislation all the time and enforce them and they are well within their rights as the controlling entity. If you question this, go pitch a tent on state university property on their front lawn and see if they can't legally move you off public property...for a "legal" activity. It's not a question of legality. It's the fundamental difference between a "right" and a "privilege".

Guys, hey...look at the bright side, now maybe we'll get a cool sticker on our GPS's we buy that has one of those stick dudes getting run over by a train with a big red circle and slash through it...

From your description i would think the security guard might have been out of line, but perhaps there are further details that would change my opinion. Like the fact that the security guard works for the entity controlling the property?

My first thought: I'm in.

If FTF hounds are a problem in your area you can always create a second account to publish caches on and get the jump on the hard core crew...

Naw, no hot coffee in the report...

I thought range on remote start was fairly small?

I don't see the difference. If I intentionally create a challenging cache it's irrelevant to me whether the searchers obtained their spoiler info from a log, or by calling a previous finder. The only difference I see is that PAF is at least discrete and doesn't require the owner to edit/maintain logs. As an owner I can delete a log with spoiler. I have no control over people calling each other looking for spoilers. If I took the trouble to hide a challenging cache, it would gall me if people were giving the secret to cache away. I am not disagreeing, per se. I was just making the distinction. At least with PAF you don't have to maintain it and people who are more purist don't run the risk of inadvertantly getting that data in GSAK or something before you can edit it as an owner. And, I agree with the thought that the encryption method is a fair middle ground. If I hid a real good cache the way I look at it...I am not going to necessarily impede people that need extra help, so long as they encrypt it so it's not blatently obvious.

Never needed it yet, but I always have the route being marked as I cache.

And that's the beauty of PAF - we rarely give the cache away, same as when we cache with others at a cache we've been to before. In person or on the phone, if someone asks for a hint that's what they get! If they ask for more info I ask how much do they want to know, where it is or a better hint. They almost always just want a good clue to get them on track. If they just can't find it and ask where it is I will tell them, barring any information that I know the cache owner has said he doesn't want disclosed... as I mentioned earlier I am aware of only one puzzle cache where the owner has requested clues not be given in Alabama. Most Phone-A-Friend requests come from people on the road who won't be back in the area for a while if ever, though some come from locals who just want to find the thing. Yeah, this may not be as bad as it sounds...probably more of one of the "purist" issues...I can see both sides.

Can I call just for fun?

That thinks my state is in the wrong category? I am so used to being "midwest"...

I could swing by after work and locate this maybe...

How long do you, personally, normally let a SBA hang with no action? Just curious...I logged a SBA on one recently that had been damaged since July with multiple maintenance requests then I logged another maintenance request in early Nov. I think...a month later they had disabled it, but hadn't maintained it, so I logged a SBA in December.

I am not going to get into a debate about it. I agree with the practice...and it would seem that on this issue this is a more common practice than what you may realize among reviewers from what I've read. And it sounds like this topic has already been hashed out and rubber-stamped as ok by TPTB, but that is only second hand info... /shrug Have at them...

I spent a lot of time in this thread: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=8749 Check the "Meanings of Acronyms and Terms Used in Geocaching" link...but I linked the parent thread because there is a ton of handy links there.