wmas1960

quote:Originally posted by Criminal:...Another thing I like to put into the cache are those ready to drink canned coffees, some from starbucks but some I got over in Japan with Japanese writing on them. (Hoping that doesn’t violate the food rule but don’t care if it does)... I don't know if it violates food since it is in a can and there probably isn't much of an odor to attract animals. However, I would point out one thing that I have read about liquid items. It made a lot of sense and was interesting. I think I saw it on a Wisconsin Geocaching site. Sorry don't recall the URL. If the weather in your area does get cold enough for a good freeze remember that liquids will freeze, expand and explode. That could really mess up your cache. Before winter arrives you might want to make sure your caches are free of such items. Of course, for now, that is probably not an issue.

You appearently miss a couple of things. The knife and the trekking poles serve multiple purposes. Assiting with climbing and walking and taking stress off of knees and othe joints and the knife can also be used to cut some wood or fillet a fish or for digging... The only item in the trio that is truely a weapon is the pepper spray, unless you intend to spray your fish first before eating it. Also these items were not necessarilly mentioned AS weapons. I believe they were mentioned by people who fealt that should the need for a defensive weapon arise these items could be sufficient in most circumstances instead of having to carry a gun. At least that is how I interperated their mention. quote:Originally posted by Duke_: quote:Originally posted by White Rabbit:On long hikes and long Geocaches, we'll take High Power Pepper Spray, our knife, and our trekking poles. Pepper spray? A knife? Trekking poles? Good grief! Are you goint out prepared to kill or what? I mean seriously, do you really need those tools to defend yourselves? Good grief, if I happen to stumble out on the trail in front of you, are you going to spray that pepper spray in my eyes? are you going to stick me with that knife? are you going to stab me with that trekking pole? Good grief man, what are you, paranoid or something? Why must you insist on carrying those offensive weapons out into our peaceful wilderness? "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Acts 26:14

Bear Banger - English Sausage made of bear meat that had previously been sprayed with pepper spray than beaten to death by a GeoCacher with a baseball bat. quote:Originally posted by White Rabbit:Don't mind my stupidity, but what exactly are bear bangers? I can pretty much tell that they make a loud noise that'll usually scare a bear, but all I can picture is a Geocacher running around crashing two frying pans together. Whatever they are, they do sound like a good thing to carry around. http://www.iinet.net.au/~rabbit/rabpics/buneatg.gif _I am the Rabbit King, I can do anything_

quote:For me however, the issue here is whether or not when I prepare to go Geocaching do I _want_ to be prepared to kill someone? The answer is no. Contemplating killing someone, in advance, is not something I would find at all right or pleasurable, and it is certainly not something I want to go through life doing, in particular when I am participating in a recreational activity such as Geocaching._ I think this may be a source for a lot of the conflict on this issue and the gun issue in general. You seem to assume that everyone who is carrying a firearm on them has contemplated killing someone or thought, as they were putting the gun in their bag, I might kill someone today. I think any reasonable person, while they might, and better, recognize that could happen, is actually thinking I might need this to DEFEND MYSELF. The thought of killing someone is not on their mind. Self Preservation might be. Some here have even stated that they carry, not because they really intend to use it against a person but, to defend from an animal. For some it is a defence against nature. Incidentally I would point out, and I will admit I don't have the experience to actually know, It might not be a good choice to shoot a 32 or 9mm or something at a Grisley or other bear. Unless you are real lucky or a good shot you might not find it all that effective. That is what I have heard though. Of course, one of the first things I was taught when I had a .22 put in my hands in military school was that even something as small as the .22 long ammunition can be DEADLY. In fact, somebody mentioned pellet guns earlier. While usually not, they, and bbs, can be fatal as well. You Never, Ever, treat any gun other than a potentially leatal weapon. Even if you are out shooting at a piece of paper. However, that does not mean that every person who picks up a gun has that objective in mind.

I like your fake pistol comment. It brings to mind something said by some cop friends of mine. Some years ago there was a debate in town about banning handguns. After a high profile school shooting in a nearby town. Anyways, my friends said that a hand gun was not your best defense if you hear an intruder in the house. One guy said to have a shotgun. Put a spent shell in the barrel and stand over your front stairs. Rack that thing and let the shell bounce of the floor. Most intruders will be gone in a flash. Of course there was a debate over whether to have the next shell be a dud or real. I might prefer real. Just in case the intruder has some friends that are cops. Incidentally, does anybody know if they make shotgunshells filled with Habenero pepper powder. If you want Non-Lethal you could fire that at an intruder... quote:Originally posted by cwsprenkle:I almost always carry a handgun while geocaching, hiking, walking about town, or on a trip to the mall. The handgun is usually carried in a fanny pack/holster combo. Looks just like an ordinary fanny pack. What makes people think they will only need a gun in specific areas? Crime happens everywhere. Do I see a bogeyman behind every tree? No, I've been licensed and carrying since 1971 and not once have I felt threatened enough to draw my weapon. But....it could happen tomorrow. Someday you may be glad that there was a law abiding, gun carrying citizen around to aid you, your family, or a friend. To those who advocate a fake pistol - that's called suicide.

I like your fake pistol comment. It brings to mind something said by some cop friends of mine. Some years ago there was a debate in town about banning handguns. After a high profile school shooting in a nearby town. Anyways, my friends said that a hand gun was not your best defense if you hear an intruder in the house. One guy said to have a shotgun. Put a spent shell in the barrel and stand over your front stairs. Rack that thing and let the shell bounce of the floor. Most intruders will be gone in a flash. Of course there was a debate over whether to have the next shell be a dud or real. I might prefer real. Just in case the intruder has some friends that are cops. Incidentally, does anybody know if they make shotgunshells filled with Habenero pepper powder. If you want Non-Lethal you could fire that at an intruder... quote:Originally posted by cwsprenkle:I almost always carry a handgun while geocaching, hiking, walking about town, or on a trip to the mall. The handgun is usually carried in a fanny pack/holster combo. Looks just like an ordinary fanny pack. What makes people think they will only need a gun in specific areas? Crime happens everywhere. Do I see a bogeyman behind every tree? No, I've been licensed and carrying since 1971 and not once have I felt threatened enough to draw my weapon. But....it could happen tomorrow. Someday you may be glad that there was a law abiding, gun carrying citizen around to aid you, your family, or a friend. To those who advocate a fake pistol - that's called suicide.

I thought I had read all of this but now I find that I only read one page of these posts. Looks like I have about 4 more hours of reading to do. Anyways, in my last post I mentioned some differences between different locales that one might be caching. For instance, in the Forest Preserves around me where The biggest animal is a White Tail and maybe the scariest a lone Coyote. Those might be able to be fought off with some simple understanding of the animals defense mechanisms and some pepper spray or foam, a bat or a stick or maybe a knife. However, to reiterate, if you are in an area where you could be the victim of a charging bear or a panther or other more aggressive or powerfull critter like an allegator, or other swift or stealthy animal you may want somehting more substantial to defend yourself with. You might even want a shotgun. Incidentally somebody mentioned caching with an assault rifle. That is rediculous and was never even mentioned. It shows the irrational arguements and rebuttals that some can have. Every serious post I read were talking about small hand guns. Far different than an AK-47 or an AR-15 You may be correct in general that a gun is not one of the first things you would put in your pack. In many situations it might not be needed at all. However it all depends on where you are caching. Not all caches are along bicycle trails or on picturesque sailing lakes in Wisconsin or Wooded areas around Chicago. There are some that have been put in some pretty rough and challenging areas. You could look at it though as, special equipment or skills, like a cache that might require climbing ropes and gear or a conoe ... Some caches might be in areas where a person may want to have a firearm with them. quote:Originally posted by vash the stampede:i like guns, in fact i really really like them, i just dont thing a gun should be on the list of things you get specificaly for geocaching, which is what this thread is about. how many times must i say it, if you are hunting or in bear and beast country guns are a great idea. but other than that there are better weapons if you need one for GEOCACHING. defending your home, use a gun, taking a stroll through gangland at midnight, you'd be crazy not to have one, walking on a hiking/biking trail in a public park in the middle of the day, you could be asking for trouble. again, those people who are responsible about it are fine, but those who are spooked by people being there at the same time shouldnt be carrying ANYTHING dangerous. just read those forums. i am progun, i would like to have a few of myself, cant afford them though and when i referred to them as toys, i meant it. they should be something we can enjoy safely not something we have to clutch on to to keep from wetting our pants of fear every moment of the day

I thought I had read all of this but now I find that I only read one page of these posts. Looks like I have about 4 more hours of reading to do. Anyways, in my last post I mentioned some differences between different locales that one might be caching. For instance, in the Forest Preserves around me where The biggest animal is a White Tail and maybe the scariest a lone Coyote. Those might be able to be fought off with some simple understanding of the animals defense mechanisms and some pepper spray or foam, a bat or a stick or maybe a knife. However, to reiterate, if you are in an area where you could be the victim of a charging bear or a panther or other more aggressive or powerfull critter like an allegator, or other swift or stealthy animal you may want somehting more substantial to defend yourself with. You might even want a shotgun. Incidentally somebody mentioned caching with an assault rifle. That is rediculous and was never even mentioned. It shows the irrational arguements and rebuttals that some can have. Every serious post I read were talking about small hand guns. Far different than an AK-47 or an AR-15 You may be correct in general that a gun is not one of the first things you would put in your pack. In many situations it might not be needed at all. However it all depends on where you are caching. Not all caches are along bicycle trails or on picturesque sailing lakes in Wisconsin or Wooded areas around Chicago. There are some that have been put in some pretty rough and challenging areas. You could look at it though as, special equipment or skills, like a cache that might require climbing ropes and gear or a conoe ... Some caches might be in areas where a person may want to have a firearm with them. quote:Originally posted by vash the stampede:i like guns, in fact i really really like them, i just dont thing a gun should be on the list of things you get specificaly for geocaching, which is what this thread is about. how many times must i say it, if you are hunting or in bear and beast country guns are a great idea. but other than that there are better weapons if you need one for GEOCACHING. defending your home, use a gun, taking a stroll through gangland at midnight, you'd be crazy not to have one, walking on a hiking/biking trail in a public park in the middle of the day, you could be asking for trouble. again, those people who are responsible about it are fine, but those who are spooked by people being there at the same time shouldnt be carrying ANYTHING dangerous. just read those forums. i am progun, i would like to have a few of myself, cant afford them though and when i referred to them as toys, i meant it. they should be something we can enjoy safely not something we have to clutch on to to keep from wetting our pants of fear every moment of the day

I just finished reading this entire thread. Took me about an hour and a half. I would like to respond as rationally as I can. I will not use any statistics and will not assert any superiority in our laws over those of other countries nor will I project any inferiority the other direction. I will also try to keep this on topic related to what has been said here and in relating to hiking and geocaching. First though I would like to say that I find it a little offensive that there is an attitude that all gun owners are somehow irresponsible and paranoid. Also that children + Guns = Accidents and Death. First relating to people carrying guns as being inherently dangerous and such a threat, if that were the case than why do we have armed police officers. If having a gun on you makes you a frightened paranoid shell of a person than why aren't more cops shooting at their shadows. The reason is maturity and training. Just because a private citizen has chosen to arm himself does not mean that he/she hasn't engaged in that same training and possessing of similar professionalism and maturity. As for children it is not strictly an age thing and not a certainty. In many cases upbringing, training and GUIDANCE AND RESPONSIBILITY BY PARENTS makes a big difference. I am not advocating putting guns in the hands of children but the difference between some 13 or 14 yr old suburban or city kid who finds a gun hidden behind a garage in his neighborhood and has never been introduced to the seriousness of a gun may react differently than the child half his age that has lived on a farm or in a rural wilderness kind of area where guns are an important part of life. Personally I started shooting guns when I was 13 when I attended a military academy. I had friends who were dear hunting when they were 7 or 8. The training I received included a strict emphasis on the seriousness of what a gun can do and included rules about handling, pointing and storage. Always hold your rifle UP AND DOWN RANGE. I also took training in TX when attending college that included the full range of instruction of how to handle a firearm safely. Texas Safe Hunter Program and was offered through ROTC. In both cases, asside from learning how to hold and shoot a rifle for competition and hunting there was a lot of emphasis on safe handling. Some of this might sound rediculous but you would be surprised how many people do not have the common sense to realize this. Always treat a firarm as if it was loaded. Never aim at something you do not intend to shoot. Never store a loaded gun. Do not grab a firearm by the barrel. There were others but I don't want to belabor this part If you are interested check the NRA or other DNR and Hunter Safety sites. In fact with all the heat that the NRA takes for unsafe handling of guns in this country, it is the NRA that sponsors, totally or in part, most of the Safety and Training programs in this country. The point is that yes, there are irresponsible people out there but I would venture to guess that most gun owners do have such training and knowlege, maturity and common sense to act safely and responsible with their guns. Maybe an answer to the percieved problems is to require every gun buyer to show that they are so trained and experienced. You could learn everything you need to know in one afternoon. To lump everyone under a label of "Let me know when you are around because I don't want to get shot" is an unfair assumption and highly offensive. Some might say that a person with that attitude is Paranoid. I will add that now I live in an urban area where I may have no need to own a gun. I do not and actually never have felt the need for one. I live in an area where when I call the police they will be there in 5 minutes or less. It was not long ago though when I lived in an area in Wisconsin where a single county deputy might have an area of about 40 miles by 40 miles to patrol. If you had some need for assistance it could take half an hour for him to get to you. If I lived in an environment like that I might have a different opinion of my need to have some protection. For that matters I would definately have a first aid kit and maybe even a defibrilator just in case (j/k) Point is though that even emergency medical help can take a long time to arrive. Also, just because there are a lot of cops and people around does not mean you are safe. I point out an incident in Chicago where a woman with a restraining order against her ex called police when he was trying to break in. 911 dispatched officers that took a long time to arrive, might have been 45min but I can't remember. Anyways, by the time they did arrive, well the ending was tragic. I do not say she should have been armed. That could have even put her in more harms way if she was not prepared or trained to use the gun to defend her. Also could be that she may have had children in and out of the house which could be a problem. Anyways, it should be everyones choice and dependant on if they are legally able to have a gun. Anyways relating to arming yourself for caching. In my area I have little to fear. About the worst I might encounter is an angry beaver or more realisticly a Coyote. I understand that Coyote are very shy and would probably not bother you. You may not even know they are around. However, remember that when you are poking around under logs, in small caves or other dug out features you never know when you might intrude upon a den or bedding site. An angry mother Coyote defending her pups or a White Tail Doe or Buck with young or a mate around could be a dangerous propositon. I do not believe carrying a gun in an urban forest presereve or a city park is wise. Personally I don't think I could shoot an animal anyways. Unless, hopefully, my life was in imenent danger. As much as I wouldn't have minded going along, I never did take to the Deer Hunting rituals in Wisconsin. I had several friends who had invited me along for weekends. On the other hand, if I was wandering the wilderness in Florida where I might encounter a panther, a bear, a boar, a gator or other angry animal who's terratory I have invaded or who's young I might be threatening and that animal was in an aggressive and highly defensive posture I might want to be prepared to defend my life. I just don't see any of this as a likelyhood in my current surrounds. Reading these posts I think that I might consider a knife and some pepper spray. The knife could be useful for other needs like digging or cutting wood etc. In this area there is a limit on the size of a knife. 6" I believe. If I get attacked by an angry raccoon or oppossum or Coyote I am sure I could scare it off with a stick, bat, pepper spray or some other non leathal force. Also the knowlege to back off and not approach is usually most sufficient. Most animals are, as I said, being defensive. They are trying to scare you off. Back away and you might usually be fine. The retractable batton sounds good too but I believe they may actually be illegal in my area. I have a strong belief that most cachers are probably similar in feeling. That is they probably will not be armed with a gun. They may be prepared for the angry raccoon or stray or wild dog.

I am new to this hobby but from all I have read it sounds like it is one that is full of honorable and decent people. It is unfortunate that a few out there might be a little less respectful than most. Maybe the answer is to stamp some sort of brand or other identifyer into the bottom of the box or engrave a serial number into the inside or something. Something that would not be easy to fully remove. It could be that some out there might be too lazy to make their own cache boxes. So they steal other peoples and maybe paint over the markings. I have thought of building capsules out of PVC materials and painting them up nicely etc. Something custom. However your topic here is one of my concerns. Maybe it would be a good idea to engrave a good identifying serial number so that if a box or capsule is stolen an alert can be posted and the thief can be identified if he reuses the box for another cache. While the point is true that most of these things are not expensive, or even that difficult to fabricate or obtain, it would be nice to be able to identify those who violate the honor and respect that most people in this hobby seem to examplify. quote:Originally posted by BrianSnat:Caches are stolen all the time. In your case, the theif obviously wanted the ammo box, since they left everything else behind. I've yet to have a cache stolen (knock on wood) and I've I've been using ammo boxes for most of my caches for a while now. To reduce the possiblilty of my caches being targeted by someone who specifically wants to bag an ammo box, I stopped describing the cache container my pages. At $3.99 each, I don't understand why would anybody bother stealing the things, but they sometimes do. Hey, if you're reading this and thinking of stealing someone's ammo box, just send me an e-mail and I've give you one. I know my wife would be very happy if all the basement shelves dedicated to storing empty ammo boxes are freed up.

I am new to this and haven't gone out to find a cache yet. Therefore I really don't know what I am talking about regarding GPS accuracy and the relationship to finding caches. However, it is my understanding that the pinpoint accuracy should not be as critical as the discription of the location or the clues that are given. I have a few caches in mind that I would like to plant when I get going with this and would appreciate any advice or correction to my understanding of this. The way I have looked at it with my concepts is that I would give a coordinate that is near by the cache but don't want a waypoint that is so specific that it locates the cache within a couple feet. I figured that even if the waypoint is 100yds away (an extreme estimate. My actual intention is much closer) it is fine if your clue can lead to a recognizable point where the searcher can locate the cache or their next clue. For example, there is a forest preserve area near me. There is usually an ice cream truck that parks near one of the bicycle trails. If I were to give a waypoint 100yrds off and give a clue that might cause somebody to think of snacks or ice cream they might then know to go to the area around the truck. Being there is a picnic table there they might find their next clue written on the table while they are eating their cone. I will point out that this is just ficticious. No such cache exists, that I know of. Actually I have thought of giving a waypoint for, say, a train station and a story about a nearby historical location. While standing on the station platform, reading the discription of the historical property, from the geocache clue page, they might be able to locate a specific spot where the location of the cache would be revealed. The contents being historical information about the site, log book etc. Instead of placing this material in the outdoors and in a, now dense wooded neighborhood and annoying residents, I thought of finding an indoor location of relevance near by where the finder would go to view the cache. Obviously I need to make some refinements to this concept. I am sure I will realize many improvements as I get more involved with GeoCaching.

I am new to this and haven't gone out to find a cache yet. Therefore I really don't know what I am talking about regarding GPS accuracy and the relationship to finding caches. However, it is my understanding that the pinpoint accuracy should not be as critical as the discription of the location or the clues that are given. I have a few caches in mind that I would like to plant when I get going with this and would appreciate any advice or correction to my understanding of this. The way I have looked at it with my concepts is that I would give a coordinate that is near by the cache but don't want a waypoint that is so specific that it locates the cache within a couple feet. I figured that even if the waypoint is 100yds away (an extreme estimate. My actual intention is much closer) it is fine if your clue can lead to a recognizable point where the searcher can locate the cache or their next clue. For example, there is a forest preserve area near me. There is usually an ice cream truck that parks near one of the bicycle trails. If I were to give a waypoint 100yrds off and give a clue that might cause somebody to think of snacks or ice cream they might then know to go to the area around the truck. Being there is a picnic table there they might find their next clue written on the table while they are eating their cone. I will point out that this is just ficticious. No such cache exists, that I know of. Actually I have thought of giving a waypoint for, say, a train station and a story about a nearby historical location. While standing on the station platform, reading the discription of the historical property, from the geocache clue page, they might be able to locate a specific spot where the location of the cache would be revealed. The contents being historical information about the site, log book etc. Instead of placing this material in the outdoors and in a, now dense wooded neighborhood and annoying residents, I thought of finding an indoor location of relevance near by where the finder would go to view the cache. Obviously I need to make some refinements to this concept. I am sure I will realize many improvements as I get more involved with GeoCaching.

I am new to this and haven't actually gotten out to do any caching yet. I have been reading a bit on it thinking of a few caches that I want to place and some in my area that I want to find. In my reading I have noticed some dramatic differences in the containers that a cache might be in and some explainations for why they might not be found or may be missing. It could be the construction or color of the container. Weather or other flooding, seasons where a cache hidden in the summer might be covered in snow or leaves in the fall or winter or ordinances and laws that don't allow for the placement of caches on certain public lands or private property owners who are unaware of the cache and thus resulting in them being disposed of. Some, like ammo boxes and some PVC constructions seem as though they might last forever and be easy to find. Others I have noticed though might be a simple box or a film canister or a tupperware or rubbermaid type container. I even noticed one that seemed like an old clear plastic cigar tube. Some of the others might not hold up as well and could deteriorate or be carried off by an animal or may be extremely difficult to see and therefore a bigger challenge to find. The colors that they are painted can be a factor as well. I notice many are cammo or painted black brown or green and thus may blend in very easy. I doubt you will find many that are painted orange or some other brighter colors. Another possibility that I have read about is that the owner may not have been sure of the rules, laws or ordinances in the area where he/she placed a cache. Some jurisdictions look on GeoCaches as abandoned and thus litter and will remove them if they find them. There is a Forest Preserve District near me that is known to dispose of them. Also since 9/11 some cities, towns or other agencies may not have much tolerance for a strange package tube or box stashed in a city park. Be sure of your hiding place to make sure that it is legal or permissable and maybe inform the owner or caretaker of the property that it is not garbage if they find it. I also had a thought of building my own containers out of PVC and including a clear plexiglass bottom so that if found by a ranger or parks or forest worker they can look inside and see that it is not something ominous or dangerous. Also clearly identify the container as a GeoCache. As this activity gets more and more popular more of these workers and enforcers and caretakers will become more familiar with what they are and might be more understanding and willing to let them be. I know a few local clubs and organizations are working to inform and educate the forest preserves, county boards or parks commissions about this activity and seek their assitance in making the hiding of maintained and monitored caches permissable. You should probably not simply place a cache and forget about it. That would validate some land owner or government officials opinion that it is litter if so many of these start popping up all over the place. Keep note of where other caches are located and find a new and original location. Spread them out a little. That would even be more enjoyable to the searchers. And, remember to keep track of and maintain your cache.

I am very new to this activity and am anxiously awaiting a chance to actually get out and try it. A friend posted this URL some time ago and suggested I look into it. I started giggling with amazement over Geocaching and knew I would just have to try it. I just set up my account here and this is my first time reading these forums. I, also, noticed this phrase and while I suspected that it involved information that could spoil the surprise, I wasn't sure. I have a couple questions for the more experienced out there, relating to this. First, If I set up a cache out there and post a page here, or whatever you do, When someone posts replies to the cache, rather than deleting the post, can I edit and redact their comments to omit information that could spoil the fun for others? Also, if they post photos that show too much or are in any way inappropriate, can I edit the photos to omit certain information? When I say edit I mean bluring or cropping etc. Or, is the only way to protect the mystery of the cache and it's concelement to delete posts and pictures entirely? This sounds like great fun and I would not want to simply delete someones posts that they feel compeled to provide I would imagine that most posts have some valuable information or realistic and reasonable clues. However I would also want to protect and preserve the next guys ability to enjoy the hunt. I can't wait to get out and find some caches myself.