wmas1960

I would not be embarassed either or even apologetic for anything. You may just have been engaging in an activity that Campus Police and certain people on campus may not understand. It has been a long time since I was a college student but it sounds to me like campus police noticed suspicious activity or somebody reported traffic or activity that they didn't understand and thought suspicious. They may have just been keeping an eye out to find out what was going on and you are the one that they zeroed in on. The cache may have been turned over to a dean or somebody and the owner has probably been notified. At least I hope that is the case. Ideally that person, A fellow student, faculty member... or somebody should have a dialog with the university and iron out this issue explaining what it is about. Seeing how harmless, I assume there was no contriband or other objectionable items in the cache, the situation is they will probably learn something positive about a new diversion that students are engaging in on campus. Of course, regarding items in the cache, You never know with college kids what they might put in there. Maybe, once they are informed of what GeoCaching is all about there might need to be some consideration of some rules that may need to be followed. On a college campus some places can be a little different than on typical public lands. Areas around dormatories and libraries or other buildings and locations might be of concern to the university. Also, it might be one thing if it is students that are engaging in caching at the site but if strangers from in town or accross the country are wandering through, there may be more sensitivity. As I recall about my years at a State University, the administration and staff often had a somewhat extreme and, sometimes, oversensitive concern for the privacy, safety and well being of their students. Like I said, hopefully this is just the beginning of an understanding. With the youth of this game, we will probably be noticing a lot more incidents like yours around towns, parks, cities, beaches etc. as those who don't know what we are doing learn what this is all about. Some officials might not know if we are spies hiding payoffs and picking up messages, druggies hiding stashes or whatever. By the nature of the game we should realize that we are engaging in the very same acts as the above mentioned, and other possible, examples. It is all in our intent and purpose that is different. Until more people know about GeoCaching and understand it as a game and outdoor sport or activity, A puzzle or challenge, TREASURE HUNTING, we are bound to attract the suspicions and attention of others. I haven't gotten out to look for my first cache yet but I already get some of those looks from people who I tell about it. Many of them think I am nuts.

dadgum, something is wrong. The hiddeous typos I have been writing lately. I apologize for the lack of accuracy and clarity in some of my comments. The last part of the cited post here should read that Might NOT seem that probable but to some it might be a rational assesment of something that is unknown to them.[/ quote:Originally posted by wmas1960: quote: _So you have a rocket box as a cache. If it's in a well-travelled spot that I can take my nephew to, I bet you will have problems with it. _ Your point just made me realize something. While some have argued that an ammo box or PVC Pipe or Rocket Box would not make sense to be a bomb or other dangerous item when in the forest in a hallow tree... One of the same posters mentioned in his "Examples" a stash that is of no interest to you so not dangerous. Whats to say that the stash isn't intended to blow up the tree but might be somebody hiding some materials so that it can be retreived later for some harm. Could be a hazerdous material or explosive. Weapons or Biological agent. Maybe somebody doesn't want it in their home because they would not want it found in their possession but wants it near enough that they can retreive it when needed. Maybe they aren't that great at hiding things that a casual jogger etc. finds it. Might seem that probable but to some it might be a rational assesment of something that is unknown to them.

quote:So you have a rocket box as a cache. If it's in a well-travelled spot that I can take my nephew to, I bet you will have problems with it. Your point just made me realize something. While some have argued that an ammo box or PVC Pipe or Rocket Box would not make sense to be a bomb or other dangerous item when in the forest in a hallow tree... One of the same posters mentioned in his "Examples" a stash that is of no interest to you so not dangerous. Whats to say that the stash isn't intended to blow up the tree but might be somebody hiding some materials so that it can be retreived later for some harm. Could be a hazerdous material or explosive. Weapons or Biological agent. Maybe somebody doesn't want it in their home because they would not want it found in their possession but wants it near enough that they can retreive it when needed. Maybe they aren't that great at hiding things that a casual jogger etc. finds it. Might seem that probable but to some it might be a rational assesment of something that is unknown to them.

From the first few posts in this thread I have to say I agree to some extent with each side of the issue. Reading the thread, last night, about Novel Containers, I have been inspired by the creativity of people to place their caches in the environment. From, very effective, camoflaged paint jobs to fake squirrels, birdhouses and foam tree stumps made from 5 gal buckets. If a person wants to use PVC, or an ammo box or the container from a old army rocket that should be their choice. However, for the good of the hobby and the understanding of the real possibility that uninformed people could stumble on our caches, I think the placers of caches should use some common sense to properly and effectively place and label their cache so that it isn't easilly stumbled accross casually or so that if found it can be understood that it poses no harm. Also, it should be strongly stressed to the seekers that they MUST place the cache back where they found it, as close to the original concelement as possible. That way people won't find your cammo rocket tube sitting on a nearby picnic table or along side a trail where anybody can find it and get nervous. I definately agree that there is a big part of this sport/activity/hobby that involves adventure and I hope people will not over react and take that quality out of their cache designs and placements. I think some public education on the hobby and what it is about might be of great value. Some might think there is a potential for over promotion where devient people might be encouraged to get involved and do the acts that make some of us a bit cautious and concerned. Thus, maybe it is appropriate to make much of the public discovery a little more gradual and pursued more by those interested rather than thrust on the public as a whole. However it might make sense to get enough publicity out there about what a cache is. For many reasons, local GeoCaching clubs and organizations might go to their Forest Preserve Districts, National and State Parks and Forests, Law Enforcement and Fire Protection and explain the concept of the game. Explain how it works and show them or give them a booklet of common cache designs and markings and help them to understand what they might encounter. Help the innitial responders to be able to see a container and immediately recognize it as a benign cache so that the next call isn't to mutual aid for a bomb disposal or hazmat team. In addition it should be encouraged that every cache owner should make sure that they label their caches with at least certain minimal pieces of information to help in that identification. I have not found my first cache yet so I don't have much experience with this yet but I would like to know how often do people find unmarked caches. Is that really a big problem? I heard one person mentioning an ammo box with it's original markings etc. I agree that perhaps that is not wise. If I, by accident, came accross a box that said 7.62mm or 50 caliber and whatever other military indicators and markings or a tube that was marked as a tube for an anti aircraft round(maybe extreme example here) just sitting along side an intersection or on a bicycle trail I might get a little concerned. Actually, I wouldn't because I have some military knowlege but not everyone knows the nature of these items as common surplus items. We can't assume that every casual jogger, hiker or skiier knows what these things are. quote:Originally posted by Rubbertoe: quote:Originally posted by Criminal:My son’s cache was a surplus wooden rocket box painted in camo colors. To someone paranoid I bet it looks VERY threatening. But guess what? I DON’T CARE! I don't think it is the community here that cares what they look like - moreso that they are worried about OTHERS finding the caches, and having them BLOWN UP by bomb squads or something, because it is unclear what they are. No matter what the container, I feel it should be clearly labeled with what it is, along with the geocaching.com URL. I think most folks are just trying to keep the hobby of geocaching from becoming something feared or looked down upon from the rest of the humans. quote:There seems to be some creepy sort of political correctness working it’s way into this hobby. “Don’t put your cache near any broken glass.” “Don’t put your cache where a branch may become dislodged from it’s tree.” “Find happy non-threatening cache containers.” Yeah - this is where it gets a little more silly, imho. Any location where a cache is hidden has the potential for danger. Someone might just be a klutz and fall over their own two feet and hurt themselves while hunting a 1/1 cache - while another person may scale a mountain and get a 5/5 cache without incident. I think it is pretty simple - if you don't like the area around a cache, don't go after it. quote:I believe that if a person has enough brain matter to work their GPSr then they probably have enough to plunk down a cache without creating an international incident. *laugh* quote:I am aware of my idealistic leanings, that I prefer to believe the best about people until I’m shown otherwise. That’s why I think this is such a non-issue. That was me about until about 2 years ago... work in retail for a while and you'll learn that most humans are crap. More than 50% of the customer base of the crappy store I worked in came in there only to steal, complain, tear things up, or switch price tags. My filtered view of the world changed a bit after being there a while. But yeah, I know what ya mean... cache HIDERS are probably the cream of our crop here - people putting forth effort to continue the fun that we enjoy here. Probably 95% of the hunters that come from the site are probably good people as well - but there are the very few who enjoy stealing caches, looting items, littering on their hunts, or doing unmentionable things in filled caches. I haven't changed how I live, but I've learned not to be surprised when people do the things they sometimes do. There are more morons in the world than I care to think about. Umm... what was this thread about again? Sorry for the rant. heh --== http://www.bigfoot.com/~rbatina ==-- [This message was edited by Rubbertoe on July 26, 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

From the first few posts in this thread I have to say I agree to some extent with each side of the issue. Reading the thread, last night, about Novel Containers, I have been inspired by the creativity of people to place their caches in the environment. From, very effective, camoflaged paint jobs to fake squirrels, birdhouses and foam tree stumps made from 5 gal buckets. If a person wants to use PVC, or an ammo box or the container from a old army rocket that should be their choice. However, for the good of the hobby and the understanding of the real possibility that uninformed people could stumble on our caches, I think the placers of caches should use some common sense to properly and effectively place and label their cache so that it isn't easilly stumbled accross casually or so that if found it can be understood that it poses no harm. Also, it should be strongly stressed to the seekers that they MUST place the cache back where they found it, as close to the original concelement as possible. That way people won't find your cammo rocket tube sitting on a nearby picnic table or along side a trail where anybody can find it and get nervous. I definately agree that there is a big part of this sport/activity/hobby that involves adventure and I hope people will not over react and take that quality out of their cache designs and placements. I think some public education on the hobby and what it is about might be of great value. Some might think there is a potential for over promotion where devient people might be encouraged to get involved and do the acts that make some of us a bit cautious and concerned. Thus, maybe it is appropriate to make much of the public discovery a little more gradual and pursued more by those interested rather than thrust on the public as a whole. However it might make sense to get enough publicity out there about what a cache is. For many reasons, local GeoCaching clubs and organizations might go to their Forest Preserve Districts, National and State Parks and Forests, Law Enforcement and Fire Protection and explain the concept of the game. Explain how it works and show them or give them a booklet of common cache designs and markings and help them to understand what they might encounter. Help the innitial responders to be able to see a container and immediately recognize it as a benign cache so that the next call isn't to mutual aid for a bomb disposal or hazmat team. In addition it should be encouraged that every cache owner should make sure that they label their caches with at least certain minimal pieces of information to help in that identification. I have not found my first cache yet so I don't have much experience with this yet but I would like to know how often do people find unmarked caches. Is that really a big problem? I heard one person mentioning an ammo box with it's original markings etc. I agree that perhaps that is not wise. If I, by accident, came accross a box that said 7.62mm or 50 caliber and whatever other military indicators and markings or a tube that was marked as a tube for an anti aircraft round(maybe extreme example here) just sitting along side an intersection or on a bicycle trail I might get a little concerned. Actually, I wouldn't because I have some military knowlege but not everyone knows the nature of these items as common surplus items. We can't assume that every casual jogger, hiker or skiier knows what these things are. quote:Originally posted by Rubbertoe: quote:Originally posted by Criminal:My son’s cache was a surplus wooden rocket box painted in camo colors. To someone paranoid I bet it looks VERY threatening. But guess what? I DON’T CARE! I don't think it is the community here that cares what they look like - moreso that they are worried about OTHERS finding the caches, and having them BLOWN UP by bomb squads or something, because it is unclear what they are. No matter what the container, I feel it should be clearly labeled with what it is, along with the geocaching.com URL. I think most folks are just trying to keep the hobby of geocaching from becoming something feared or looked down upon from the rest of the humans. quote:There seems to be some creepy sort of political correctness working it’s way into this hobby. “Don’t put your cache near any broken glass.” “Don’t put your cache where a branch may become dislodged from it’s tree.” “Find happy non-threatening cache containers.” Yeah - this is where it gets a little more silly, imho. Any location where a cache is hidden has the potential for danger. Someone might just be a klutz and fall over their own two feet and hurt themselves while hunting a 1/1 cache - while another person may scale a mountain and get a 5/5 cache without incident. I think it is pretty simple - if you don't like the area around a cache, don't go after it. quote:I believe that if a person has enough brain matter to work their GPSr then they probably have enough to plunk down a cache without creating an international incident. *laugh* quote:I am aware of my idealistic leanings, that I prefer to believe the best about people until I’m shown otherwise. That’s why I think this is such a non-issue. That was me about until about 2 years ago... work in retail for a while and you'll learn that most humans are crap. More than 50% of the customer base of the crappy store I worked in came in there only to steal, complain, tear things up, or switch price tags. My filtered view of the world changed a bit after being there a while. But yeah, I know what ya mean... cache HIDERS are probably the cream of our crop here - people putting forth effort to continue the fun that we enjoy here. Probably 95% of the hunters that come from the site are probably good people as well - but there are the very few who enjoy stealing caches, looting items, littering on their hunts, or doing unmentionable things in filled caches. I haven't changed how I live, but I've learned not to be surprised when people do the things they sometimes do. There are more morons in the world than I care to think about. Umm... what was this thread about again? Sorry for the rant. heh --== http://www.bigfoot.com/~rbatina ==-- [This message was edited by Rubbertoe on July 26, 2002 at 10:23 AM.]

I have been heavilly researching the PVC cache myself. I thought it would make an excellent container. Then I found that it wasn't an original idea and that some have even done a fantastic job with paint etc. Also I have learned that there are a few problems with them like their resemblance to pipe bombs and leaking. I have a few ideas to consider for correcting for those issues. Reading this thread, which I hadn't noticed before, has even given me a lot more food for thought. I love the ideas of bird houses or the hole in the tree with a door. The tree stump is excellent. The mortar tube is sort of a ready made alternative to the PVC. A lot to think about. It seems that it may not be bad to get or build a few vessals to put a cach in. That way I would be prepared when ready. However, the best solution might be to scout a prospective location first and then use your imagination to create a cache that will fit into the environment. Some locations, hollow trees, downed logs... might lend themselves to any container. But a fake tree or treestump is priceless. I sure I hope I don't come accross any of those out there. It might be too difficult for me.

I have been heavilly researching the PVC cache myself. I thought it would make an excellent container. Then I found that it wasn't an original idea and that some have even done a fantastic job with paint etc. Also I have learned that there are a few problems with them like their resemblance to pipe bombs and leaking. I have a few ideas to consider for correcting for those issues. Reading this thread, which I hadn't noticed before, has even given me a lot more food for thought. I love the ideas of bird houses or the hole in the tree with a door. The tree stump is excellent. The mortar tube is sort of a ready made alternative to the PVC. A lot to think about. It seems that it may not be bad to get or build a few vessals to put a cach in. That way I would be prepared when ready. However, the best solution might be to scout a prospective location first and then use your imagination to create a cache that will fit into the environment. Some locations, hollow trees, downed logs... might lend themselves to any container. But a fake tree or treestump is priceless. I sure I hope I don't come accross any of those out there. It might be too difficult for me.

Funny thing you mentioned abandonment or sometimes considered as littering(?). In the Chicago area, DuPage County, it seems had a similar stance on the issue and had owners remove their caches from Forest Preserve Property. Those caches as I understand have been Archived until the issue can be resolved. When some owners didn't pick up their caches they were collected and disposed of(?). Local cachers have been working WITH the FPD to resolve all the concerns. I came accross an update on the Chicago Area Geocaching page tonight that explains the issue and updates on the progress that has been made. One of the concerns was that the Forest Preserve wanted to insure that the owner or some other "Steward" was actually maintaining the cache and that there was a person available to be contacted if the cache is mislocated or broken open. I suppose some containers could be inadequate and causing debris or litter. Either that or careless searchers not placing the caches back properly or securely. They supposedly wanted to have a record of somebody to come out and clean up the clutter if the cache is dumped all over. Therefore, it sounds like caches may need to be registered(?) and placed by permit only. That way they have contact information etc. The update can be located at, http://www.chicagogeocaching.com/duPage.html A couple things that really caught my eye was that the FPD was actually considering the possibility of providing containers for caches. It was even mentioned that one of their education program representitives might even be interested in soliciting volunteers to maintain caches in certain specific locations around the Forest Preserves. quote:Originally posted by Irvingdog:Sadly, the state park system banned it under the addressed issue of abandoned property and leaving items unattended overnight. This was probably initially aimed at deer hunters erecting tree stands and leaving them there. And yes, the supervisors of J.C.S.P. should be informed of the entry by this Robin Hood. I'd bet it is a chippy employee, personally. Also, if the person had one modicum of respect for tax paying citizens doing something that, until it was banned was legal, they would have given the cache placer the chance to come claim the cache. It was labeled after all. This person knew how to find the site and post their little comments. http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Irvingdog/boo2.jpg Ahhhh......the moist nose of a German Wirehaired Pointer!

Funny thing you mentioned abandonment or sometimes considered as littering(?). In the Chicago area, DuPage County, it seems had a similar stance on the issue and had owners remove their caches from Forest Preserve Property. Those caches as I understand have been Archived until the issue can be resolved. When some owners didn't pick up their caches they were collected and disposed of(?). Local cachers have been working WITH the FPD to resolve all the concerns. I came accross an update on the Chicago Area Geocaching page tonight that explains the issue and updates on the progress that has been made. One of the concerns was that the Forest Preserve wanted to insure that the owner or some other "Steward" was actually maintaining the cache and that there was a person available to be contacted if the cache is mislocated or broken open. I suppose some containers could be inadequate and causing debris or litter. Either that or careless searchers not placing the caches back properly or securely. They supposedly wanted to have a record of somebody to come out and clean up the clutter if the cache is dumped all over. Therefore, it sounds like caches may need to be registered(?) and placed by permit only. That way they have contact information etc. The update can be located at, http://www.chicagogeocaching.com/duPage.html A couple things that really caught my eye was that the FPD was actually considering the possibility of providing containers for caches. It was even mentioned that one of their education program representitives might even be interested in soliciting volunteers to maintain caches in certain specific locations around the Forest Preserves. quote:Originally posted by Irvingdog:Sadly, the state park system banned it under the addressed issue of abandoned property and leaving items unattended overnight. This was probably initially aimed at deer hunters erecting tree stands and leaving them there. And yes, the supervisors of J.C.S.P. should be informed of the entry by this Robin Hood. I'd bet it is a chippy employee, personally. Also, if the person had one modicum of respect for tax paying citizens doing something that, until it was banned was legal, they would have given the cache placer the chance to come claim the cache. It was labeled after all. This person knew how to find the site and post their little comments. http://www.hunting-pictures.com/members/Irvingdog/boo2.jpg Ahhhh......the moist nose of a German Wirehaired Pointer!

In the research that I have done I did hear about it and saw a couple links on Google that mentioned it. However didn't notice anyplace that sells it to consumers. I think the only places I saw sold to industry and to labs etc. I believe that I saw it in some colors as well. Transparant but Blue and Yellow come to mind. I might have even seen it in Red. I get the impression that the main applications for this is for monitoring the flow of chemicals through a plant through color coded piping . As for the leaky lid problem I may have discovered a solution to that today. There is a company called Genova, maybe others make them as well, that makes a clean out fitting that, instead of fitting over the end of the pipe, fits into a standard coupling (4" to 4", 6" to 6"). That requires an extra part and about another 2 or 4 bucks depending on what size pipe you are using. Also it is a little more expensive than the standard screw cover clean out. About $6 instead of maybe $4. The deal with this cap is that the threads do not run as deep into the pipe as the others and there is a little edge in the bottom of the fitting. Assuming you could find a piece of rubber and cut it to fit, find an O-Ring or a washer or rubber gasket, you could put something in the bottom of the fitting that would create a seal when the cap is screwed down. You might even be able to use some silicone and make a bead around that edge. Let it dry and see if that will stay put and seal when the cap is tightened. You may have to repair or replace the seal from time to time. Looking at some catalog pages from Genova's web catalog the part numbers are 71659 for 6" (you will also need to buy a screw in cap) 71640 for the 4" (comes with the cap) 71630 3" (also comes with the cap). The only thing that would be a down side to the clear PVC is that some might prefer to paint their caches anyways thus defeating the purpose. However a clear end cap for the bottom would be very effective for my ideas. Would save me from the possible leaks from gluing in some plexiglass. I suppose you could always mask off a window on one side of the tube and then paint over the rest. That would really help someone see inside. Thanks for the suggestion. I, for one, am going to keep looking to see if I can find it somewhere and give it a look. quote:Originally posted by GeoManhattan:I'm surprised no one mentioned clear PVC tubing yet. Wouldn't that address a lot of the issues (except for the leak/tight cap factor)? http://www.harvel.com/clear.html I found this link along with a bunch more on Google.

For the cost associated with the production of the cache you will at least have one hell of a story to tell your grandchildren about if some nut had the police blow up your cache. Like you said though, if you didn't put anything illegal or inapropriate in the cache and had it labeled well and hidden in a permitted area you should have nothing to worry about. One good thing about these logs, here on geocaching.com is that there is also a documentation of what was in the cache and when. If anything ever is put in by someone who finds a cache a timeline can be established. If the cache is a popular one that is visited more frequently that timeline would be better. Of course you can't depend on some deviant person putting a log entry online. Althoug, if the log in the cache remains reasonably in tact more info can be found there. Especially if the subject were to be the type that couldn't resist putting some nutso comment in the log book. I don't worry about it at all other than as a potential cache placer, I would make sure that my caches are adequately labeled. Also, I think it is probably a good idea to have a transparant bottom so anyone who is afraid to open it could look inside to eleviate some of their anxiety. Caching should be fun. Any relief we can provide for those who have concerns will only make it better. Even if those concerns are somewhat unfounded. quote:Originally posted by michianajones:just keep putting the caches in whatever container you want. If someone is afraid it's a bomb, they'll call the bomb-aquad, who will try to detonate something that won't, because it's not a bomb, and the caller will look stupid. OF course you'll lose your cache...but if it's hidden well, and no one would be able to find it unless they had the coordinates I don't think you'd have to worry about being suspected of planting a bomb. I just figure its a hazard of the hobby, and if someone does something stupid either by planting illegal substances or bombs in a cache it's a risk we take, just like anything else in life. There were people planting pipe-bombs at K-marts in my area, no one banned shopping.

If everyone keeps there concerns and comments and opinions serious and respectfull this could show a potentially strong snapshot of public opinion regarding the issue. Some rational respectful debate and opinion can often have a powerful influence. quote:Originally posted by Kodak's4:But it makes sense to understand the laws involved. I'd suggest calling Jay Cooke's supervisor, or the head of Minnesota state parks, whichever is easier to locate. Politely explain the situation, and ask them to SPECIFY exactly which law is being violated. Here in WA state, if something is illegal, you should be able to point to a specific paragraph in the Revised Code of Washington and see the law mentioned. Lots of people post signs in restaurants saying "Shirt and shoes required by law" when there is no such law. I'd make a fair wager that there is no law that makes placing caches in Minnesota parks illegal. Call their bluff. If they don't come through with the citation that makes it clear, call up your elected representatives and bend their ear for a couple of hours, and get them to lean on Jay Cooke. If nothing else, call up the Parks people and complain about Jay Cooke being hostile. But get a citation for the law. I'll bet there isn't one, or if there is, it's one of those "Any act which is deemed inappropriate by Parks staff is illegal" variety. Then the question is "How much political pressure can you bring to bear". Write letters to the editors of ALL the local papers, quoting Mr. Cooke's log entry verbatim. Mention Mr. Cooke by name. Mention his supervisor by name. Give the direct dial phone numbers of both of them, in the letter, and encourage people to call both of them and express their own views on the issue. Heck, post that info here. I'd be happy to call them and express my opinion.

If everyone keeps there concerns and comments and opinions serious and respectfull this could show a potentially strong snapshot of public opinion regarding the issue. Some rational respectful debate and opinion can often have a powerful influence. quote:Originally posted by Kodak's4:But it makes sense to understand the laws involved. I'd suggest calling Jay Cooke's supervisor, or the head of Minnesota state parks, whichever is easier to locate. Politely explain the situation, and ask them to SPECIFY exactly which law is being violated. Here in WA state, if something is illegal, you should be able to point to a specific paragraph in the Revised Code of Washington and see the law mentioned. Lots of people post signs in restaurants saying "Shirt and shoes required by law" when there is no such law. I'd make a fair wager that there is no law that makes placing caches in Minnesota parks illegal. Call their bluff. If they don't come through with the citation that makes it clear, call up your elected representatives and bend their ear for a couple of hours, and get them to lean on Jay Cooke. If nothing else, call up the Parks people and complain about Jay Cooke being hostile. But get a citation for the law. I'll bet there isn't one, or if there is, it's one of those "Any act which is deemed inappropriate by Parks staff is illegal" variety. Then the question is "How much political pressure can you bring to bear". Write letters to the editors of ALL the local papers, quoting Mr. Cooke's log entry verbatim. Mention Mr. Cooke by name. Mention his supervisor by name. Give the direct dial phone numbers of both of them, in the letter, and encourage people to call both of them and express their own views on the issue. Heck, post that info here. I'd be happy to call them and express my opinion.

I am in the middle of reading this thread and if I understand this correctly I have a couple impressions and some questions. First has anyone determined if the person posting these log entries is someone of proper authority to be removing these caches? Is the person an official person charged with maintaining the park or with enforcing laws? Or is this person some ECO-Vigilante sort that is taking it on their own to remove the caches? It would seem to me that based on the mention that placing caches is illegal now in MN than there might not be much recourse. Especially if it was somebody with official authority. However, if it is a private citizen would they be stealing the cache? Or, do we legally and technically forfeit our right to ownership when we leave a cache in a public place. Either way though I don't intend to suggest making a big deal of that issue. It does however have some relevance though in principle. One other question, When a forest ranger or park manager or one of their staffs removes a cache, can the owner of the cache still claim it or are they disposed of? Anyways, if the individual here is an official employee of the park service or whatever agency than I would still make a complaint to that agency and the specific supervisor or director or whatever person in charge, that the employee(?) has been posting antagonistic disrespectful comments on a public bulletin board that is frequented by many people who have a love of the environment and have every right to use the parks as anyone else. And, that such behavior is damaging to the reputation of the department. It is one thing to simply post an entry, or notice, that the cache has been determined to be a violation of law and that it should be removed in X number of days... Or that it has been removed under official authority. But, to post such comments is derogatory to the public and not of a professional behavior that would be expected of an employee of the park service. I am venting a little here but as a former legal assistant who frequently had to work with state, county and federal court clerks, sheriffs deputies etc., one of the biggest things that erks me is the arrogance and unprofessionalism of some government employees and the disrespect that is frequently given to TAX PAYING, FEE PAYING CUSTOMERS and citizens. There was no need for the comments that I have read and someone should be called to task for it.

I am in the middle of reading this thread and if I understand this correctly I have a couple impressions and some questions. First has anyone determined if the person posting these log entries is someone of proper authority to be removing these caches? Is the person an official person charged with maintaining the park or with enforcing laws? Or is this person some ECO-Vigilante sort that is taking it on their own to remove the caches? It would seem to me that based on the mention that placing caches is illegal now in MN than there might not be much recourse. Especially if it was somebody with official authority. However, if it is a private citizen would they be stealing the cache? Or, do we legally and technically forfeit our right to ownership when we leave a cache in a public place. Either way though I don't intend to suggest making a big deal of that issue. It does however have some relevance though in principle. One other question, When a forest ranger or park manager or one of their staffs removes a cache, can the owner of the cache still claim it or are they disposed of? Anyways, if the individual here is an official employee of the park service or whatever agency than I would still make a complaint to that agency and the specific supervisor or director or whatever person in charge, that the employee(?) has been posting antagonistic disrespectful comments on a public bulletin board that is frequented by many people who have a love of the environment and have every right to use the parks as anyone else. And, that such behavior is damaging to the reputation of the department. It is one thing to simply post an entry, or notice, that the cache has been determined to be a violation of law and that it should be removed in X number of days... Or that it has been removed under official authority. But, to post such comments is derogatory to the public and not of a professional behavior that would be expected of an employee of the park service. I am venting a little here but as a former legal assistant who frequently had to work with state, county and federal court clerks, sheriffs deputies etc., one of the biggest things that erks me is the arrogance and unprofessionalism of some government employees and the disrespect that is frequently given to TAX PAYING, FEE PAYING CUSTOMERS and citizens. There was no need for the comments that I have read and someone should be called to task for it.

quote:I am not alone by having the thought cross my mind while out caching that someone could easily use any of the items we commonly associate with Geocaching containers to set up some sort of booby trap that could explode and cause harm to the first person who races out to be the first to find a newly planted cache. The possibility does exist that some sick individual could take pleasure in doing this. I fear this happening more than I do someone not involved in the hobby mistaking a container as an explosive device and calling the bomb squad. I just hope it never happens. We have terror to blame for taking away or forever altering many of the things we once considered normal and/or safe activities. Let's not allow it take Geocaching away from us too. I think if we all just use common sense and good judgement that Geocaching will continue to grow and thrive as it has. Thanks for listening. That is one of the reason that I am trying to work on perfecting the PVC route here. Living in a suburban area near a large major city, even our forests can be very heavily trafficed with bicycles, conoes, joggers... The chances are thus much greater that someone could stumble accross a cache not knowing what it is. With the current climate after 9/11 there seems to be more of a sensitivity on the parts of some regarding strange packages left lying around. You are correct that a properly placed AND LABELED cache is probably not going to be much of a fear but one of the subjects that got me thinking of this was the thread about not rehiding caches. I understand some finders just discard the cache on a nearby bridal or bicycle trail, nearby picnic table... With ammo boxes you can not see inside until after you have opened it. Therefore certain anxieties might exist by some when they confront these containers. Tupperware or Rubbermade may be transparent but many have reported about lids leaking or coming off or animals nawing their way through them... With PVC, you have a very durable container and can affix lids that do not casually come off. The downside though, again is you can't see in and some say the lids can seize up and leak. I am still thinking of the leaking problem and the seizing of the lid but I had a thought that you could put plexiglass in the bottom, glued in with aquarium sealer. That would than allow someone the ability to look inside and confirm that, like you mention, some nut didn't put something dangerous inside. Of course you may not ever be certain but at least you can have some idea. Properly labeled a cache like this could be done well. PVC does have an advantage that, since they are custom made, a creative builder could do almost anything they want.

I came accross this old thread while researching the idea of using PVC. I was thinking of this as a project to work on as I get into this hobby. It is good and interesting to hear about peoples first hand experiences with these types of containers. Your description though does not seem familiar to the parts that I had been looking at when I was at Home Depot. I understand there are a couple of different types of ends that you can put on these caches. Might be something to consider. I was looking at the screw on cleanout caps that some say leak. You might be talking about another type that seals water tight but it sounds that maybe there is an issue with a vaccum. Maybe as the cache heats and cools it creates negative pressure inside and a vaccum inside that is causing people to have difficulty? That would make the screw cap better, but not if it is going to leak. What to do, what to do? Maybe the airtight cap but some sort of valve that can be opened to equalize pressure inside???? But then you can't be certain that finders will remember to close the valve. Regarding leaking, I did read one post that said that one builder found that his cache leaked, not because of the cap(s) on it but because the ends and other parts were not glued properly. I was thinking that maybe it would be best to use some silicone aquarium sealer in addition to glue on all the parts. Like caulking a bathtub. Before actually putting one in the field I might have to make a couple prototypes and see how they perform. Glue and assemble them and submerge them in a bathtub and see if they leak overnight. Maybe I can find out where the problem(s) exist. Then decide if they are worth while. Like one person said in a thread I was reading, Sometimes building the cache can be as much fun as placing it. Thanks for your assistance. Any other comments from you or from others is always appreciated. quote:Originally posted by Genius Loci:I guess that lot's of folks like the PVC pipes for hides, but as a finder, I sure hope they don't get any more popular. Of the four or five that I've found, only one has been easy to open, and it had been recently placed. All of them were found in summertime; I can't imagine what it's like in winter if they're frozen. A couple of weeks ago I found one that hadn't been visited for about 6 weeks. Even after completely unscrewing the wing nut, the rubber had stuck so tightly to the sides of the PVC that I couldn't release the plug without prying it off. So, A WRENCH IS NOT ALWAYS ENDUGH to get these suckers open, YOU NEED A SHARP EDGED TOOL TO PRY under the metal lip to break it free from the sides of the pipe. Plus, I've poured water out of at least two of them so far (and they were sealed tight), so they are not as waterproof as some people imagine. I love great new ideas as much as anyone, and inventing a better cache box is most certainly worth pursuing. However, my experiences with these types of containers hasn't been very positive. Now, when I find one of these PVC boxes, I silently curse. Although it hasn't happened to me yet, it would be a real bummer to go on a hunt, find the stash, and not be able to open the box - and I think this is a definite possibility with the PVC boxes. Anyway, if people start using a lot of these, I hope they'll at least mention that fact in the description so we'll all know to bring along tools to open them. Oh - and lube the end up with a load of Vaseline before you jam it in and screw it down, will 'ya please? - Genius Loci ('the guardian spirit of a place')

I am new here and just saw your posts about the difficulty with PVC fittings and opening them. I have, while thinking of some cache ideas, thought that using PVC was a natural due to it's durability, longevity and the ability of a builder to determine size. Also, ammo boxes seem a good choice but I would be a little conserned for rusting and the seal on the lid wearing out and a box starting to leak. In any case though I would put contents into ziplocks in either type of container. Anyways, regarding your problem, I would suggest carrying a good lightweight wrench with you. You could measure the square nub on the clean out and cut a similar square into a piece of wood or metal, Maybe aluminum. Or carry a large crescent wrench. You probably don't need much other than the ability to get enough offset from the cap to give you some leverage. Of course a lot would depend on how hard the previous cacher tightened it. quote:Originally posted by smoochnme:

I am new here and just saw your posts about the difficulty with PVC fittings and opening them. I have, while thinking of some cache ideas, thought that using PVC was a natural due to it's durability, longevity and the ability of a builder to determine size. Also, ammo boxes seem a good choice but I would be a little conserned for rusting and the seal on the lid wearing out and a box starting to leak. In any case though I would put contents into ziplocks in either type of container. Anyways, regarding your problem, I would suggest carrying a good lightweight wrench with you. You could measure the square nub on the clean out and cut a similar square into a piece of wood or metal, Maybe aluminum. Or carry a large crescent wrench. You probably don't need much other than the ability to get enough offset from the cap to give you some leverage. Of course a lot would depend on how hard the previous cacher tightened it. quote:Originally posted by smoochnme:

Excellent Cache. I am new to Geocaching and haven't actually gotten out to search yet. For now I have been reading up on as much as I can before I search for the first cache. Things have been a little busy lately. Another thing I have been doing is thinking of several ideas that I have had for caches to place. Reading some of the cache clues and what people have said here on this group, I am getting a lot of great ideas. Mostly normal caches but, as a photographer, I have a big box of old film containers to get rid of. I am starting to think that maybe a combination of micros and one big one would be kind of fun. I have to actually do some caching though to figure out where and how to hide such a series of caches. Anyways, your photo is almost exactly what I have envisioned. I have a couple of questions. First how big was that(length). Second what did you use for the bottom. Is that just an end cap? I was thinking of using aquarium sealer to affix a piece of plexiglass into the bottom of the pipe so that it can be looked into. Your photo is a prime example of why. That thing looks pretty ominous. I would hate to hear on the news that the county had to call in a haz mat or bomb squad to destroy my cache. I am still trying to figure how to add the clear bottom. I was just at Home Depot this afternoon and they had plenty of the cleanout parts and joiners... but they didn't have the 4" pipe. From my estimate of what I saw, for a 12" to 15" capsule you might be talking about $10 cost to construct. Is that very far off? The fittings and other parts, I noticed, seemed to be from 2 to $5 each. There are, I think 3 different fittings that are needed. I figure I could buy a 10' piece and have it cut to 12 or 15" pieces. Then buy the other parts as needed. According to my math, that would allow for 8 capsules. 7 or 6 if I need to sacrifice a couple for some other smaller parts. Lastly, I want to compliment the artist on the paint job. That is real cool. I thought of trying to do the same thing but I don't think I have the artistic skill to do it effectively. I was thinking a more simple kind of design. quote:Originally posted by Lazyboy & Mitey Mite:You cache container looks fantastic. I like it and I think it'd be dirt cheap to make. Thanks. Oh I reposted your pic, didn't turn out... http://img.Groundspeak.com/cache/18486_200.jpg Never Squat With Yer Spurs On

While reading the posts, so far, in this thread I had a few thoughts. You mentioned the general thought here. I have a couple of suggestions that may get answered elsewhere but anyways, they are my thoughts. I have a few hides in mind and am thinking that what I might do is photograph the cache placement as I hide the cache. Then I will go print them out and return to my cache(s) later and include them into the cache. That way, the finders can be reminded, approximately at least, how the cache was and encouraged to try to rehide it, as best they can, to the original intentions. In addition to this I think that the best solution is that if you find a cache that has been manipulated, doesn't seem to fit the clues, hasn't been rehiden or may even have been taken, MAYBE(?) BY AN ANIMAL, and discarded elsewhere along the path or whatever, you should either relocate it as close to the original location and concelement or cover and notify the owner or mail the cache back to the owner so he/she can relocate it. This brings up a question. If anyone is familiar with postal procedures, is it allowable if someone puts an address label onto their cache with a guarantee to pay postage will the P.O return the cache Postage Due? Or do you need to go to the post office and get some sort of permit or affix postage... I had the thought to put my P.O. Box address on my caches in case somebody or some thing wanders off with it and it is found. Then, hopefully somebody might find it and return it to me. Just drop it into a mailbox. Also, if a ranger finds it and doesn't want it in a certain place they might actually send it back to me instead of throwing it away. Rangers or Parks managers could even put a note into the log book or a letter explaining any concern or objection to it's location or can simply return it if they were to find it mislocated. Also, regarding some reports of missing caches, is it possible that, in some cases, non-cachers may have found them and turned them into lost and found thinking they were lost items? If people don't rehide caches it makes it easier for others to find them. Also it makes them appear to be lost items. If the cache is just tossed into the middle of a path it could be that it is found and seen as a lost item. Another reason to have your caches labeled clearly with GEOCACHE, it's name, your name and address and/or email address, www.geocaching.com etc. If people are afraid to put their real addresses on their cache, P.O. Boxes could be an answer. Maybe local clubs or GeoCaching organizations or related merchants can sponsor neutral places where caches can be registered and returned if found. Then, someone more friendly can locate the owner and return it to the him/her who can properly relocate it. Might be a good marketing idea for Outdoors type merchants. Outfitters, Camping Supply... I can think of a couple of good ones in my area. Thay could have labels with serial numbers. The label could include their logo and their address with postage... Cachers could pay for the labels and place them on their caches. The serial number would cross reference to the owner and allow the merchant to return the cache. The lables and service may not even have to cost that much since a.) the merchant gets promotional value from the service. Cachers may do more business with THEM and others who find a cache will see their logo and be prompted to maybe see them for their outdoors needs and b.) those who never need the service will be paying for those who's caches are found. I only intended about 1 short paragraph about relocating and notifying the owner to check and confirm the location. As usualy though ideas started flowing.... Anyways, Just some rambling thoughts off the top of my head. quote:Originally posted by Lazy Leopard:The aim has to be to keep the cache hidden in exactly the same ways as it was originally hidden. However, changing seasons, weather and wildlife sometimes mess things up, and so do cachers who don't take care to put things back the way they were. The tricky bit is determining what the original state was. The only person fully qualified to put things right is the cache owner. The rest of us will have to guess, and sometimes we'll guess wrong. Purrs... LazyLeopard http://www.lazyleopard.org.uk

I will admit that your point did dawn on me after I sent that post. Especially when your next post seemed to be opposite to the post which I replied to . After reading 5 pages of these and spending almost 4 hours reading them it started to just be words. The identities of the writers seemed to fade and context with previous and following posts started to get foggy. Sorry if I took you too seriously. I probably got a little too goofy with all that politics and opinion. quote:Originally posted by Duke_:If you read all the posts wmas, you will realize that my statements about the pepper spray, knife, and trekking poles were stated with heavy sarcasm to poke fun at some of the rediculous statements from the anti gun folks. I was using absurdity to point out the absurd. People carrying those mentioned items are going out prepared. People who carry a sidearm are going out prepared. But some folks in here believe that going out prepared with a sidearm somehow makes you a paranoid threat to the civilized world. And that is nonsense. "it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks" Acts 26:14

quote:Originally posted by Criminal:...Another thing I like to put into the cache are those ready to drink canned coffees, some from starbucks but some I got over in Japan with Japanese writing on them. (Hoping that doesn’t violate the food rule but don’t care if it does)... I don't know if it violates food since it is in a can and there probably isn't much of an odor to attract animals. However, I would point out one thing that I have read about liquid items. It made a lot of sense and was interesting. I think I saw it on a Wisconsin Geocaching site. Sorry don't recall the URL. If the weather in your area does get cold enough for a good freeze remember that liquids will freeze, expand and explode. That could really mess up your cache. Before winter arrives you might want to make sure your caches are free of such items. Of course, for now, that is probably not an issue.