elmuyloco5

The OP never said that the cache was placed by someone without permission. The whole post is about how they think it's unkind to trees. It's the reviewers job to ensure the cache is placed in a spot that has been permitted. It's not our job as cachers to police people's caches. I think the majority of responses have been clear, the screw won't hurt the tree, no reason for the OP to be alarmed. Nobody's mentioned the fire tacks that are used for night caches.

My response isn't in regard to the placement guidelines, but to the hole in the tree issue. Maple syrup requires a tap to placed into the tree (hence a hole) and cross country diamonds are nailed onto trees (a hole), and trees are sampled by taking a nice long chunk out of the tree without harm (another hole). I'm sure there's other things I'm not thinking about this second.....but holes are put in trees all the time with no adverse affects. A small screw will not be "mean" to the tree, that tree will outlive you or I even with a hole in it.

That's kind of assuming multis will have a missing stage. Why do multis have stages go missing more often than a single cache gets muggled or destroyed in some fashion? No one gives up on singles if they find out the cache they went after was missing. I don't get it...I'm missing something here about the ever-present "missing multi-stages." I guess I need to start slinging some Gladware under bushes. That'll be some quick and easy finds. I agree completely with you. I don't understand the "missing stage" issue. What it appears that people are saying is that it is because the second or third, etc. that is missing, so it took them a little more time, and that bugs them. I guess they wouldn't care if the first was missing as then it would be no different than a traditional cache being gone (equal effort). But, I think the blame is being laid in the wrong place. People who place multis shouldn't be punished as a whole for the members who don't maintain their caches. Chances are the people who own the multis with missing stages, also own tradtional caches that need maintenance as well. It's a shame that the general mentality is to punish those who place multis. And for those who say that most multis are no better than a tradtional, I'm not sure why they need to be? Is there are requirement for multis and puzzles to be better than traditionals because you have to put forth more effort??? I thought that the point was to make something more challenging? It seems then that the whole "it's about the hunt, not the numbers" adage is just hypocritical. Now, multis do allow you to place along a beautiful area and point out specific things to see that a traditional would not be able to due to the proxiimity rules, but I fail to see why they have to in order to be considered worth doing? Lord knows I've seen plenty of tradtionals that are just missing a point altogether, but that never stops people from going to them. Infact, I have seen plenty of "oh gee, that was so great" being logged on a cracked gladware piece of junk that's soaked with water and tossed under a pile of trash in a bush along the freeway. I guess I must be missing what the consensus is on a good cache. Personally, I would rather go on a 5 mile long multi hike in the woods with every stage an impossible nano than find the 1/1 piece of geotrash along a roadside. But I guess, that I'm in the minority of cachers....go figure. I think this must depend on the kid. My three (6, 7, and 9) sure love their treasure, but they also love the hunt. They really like the multi because you have to keep going for extra clues, it's much more like a real treasure hunt that way. Just think of National Treasure (one of my kids favorite movies)....they had to keep working to figure out where the treasure is.

Exactly why we have made up CITO micros. They contain a latex-free glove and a trash bag inside a film canister. The cacher can take the micro, use the contents to clean up around the cache and have the film canister for a micro later (yeah I know those who don't like film canisters......but there are plenty who use them). If we all took a moment to clean up around a cache before we placed it, or as we're looking for a cache, land owners would have a MUCH different opinion of GCers, and alot of restrictions would be lifted. We control our own fate.

This is a perfect reason to get a PDA (but certainly not the only one). You can get one that will work for geocaching for very little money used and it will take care of any of those issues you have.....and save you money in ink and paper.....not to mention the environmental effect it will have.

We're getting ready to place our first multi which is just one of 20 new caches in a series that we made. I knew people didn't bother with multis if they are about the numbers, but had no idea that there were so many other reasons that you all avoided them (except for missing stages, of course). So what if my multi adressed the following issues in the description:

I think the container is hilarious. However, I would be hesitant to place it. Traps have some seriously sharp edges, and being placed in the woods, could be covered heavily with leaves or needles (depending on the type of woods you place it in). It would be very easy to trip over this cache (kid or adult). Yes, traps are out in the woods, but usually placed within marked hunting grounds during hunting season. And yes, you can get hurt in many different ways while hunting for a cache, but that isn't the point. Getting hurt when trying to approach the cache because you physically had an accident is totally different than being hurt ON a container. Again, I think it's funny, but it could open you up to lawsuits. Some of you might think that is ridiculous, but just think about McDonald's and the lady with the coffee that was too hot. I wouldn't do it for my own financial safety, personally. Per guidlines from Groundspeak: Will it cause unnecessary concern? - Please use common sense when choosing a location for your cache. Do not place your cache in any location where it might be confused with something more dangerous. I think the above statement also speaks for containers. While some containers would be very funny and creative, they don't make the best overall choice. My son fell on a metal rake that was laying amoungst a bunch of stuff, prong side up, on the ground at a garage sale once. He still has a nasty scar on his wrist from it. We didn't sue the lady, but we would have been within legal limits to do so. I'd just keep that in mind and decide if you're willing to take the chance to see if someone gets hurt, and if they would try to sue. Even if they didn't win the suit, it costs you money and time to defend yourself.

We cache with our three kids aged 6-9. They love it! There are dangers everywhere in the world, even if you don't even leave your home. But, geocaching has a few particular things that you should be aware of: 1. Same dangers as you would hiking (on rural caches). What specific dangers depends completely on the environment in the area you're caching (desert, mountain, etc). Keep in mind the types of wildlife you have in your area, as well as any poisonous plants or insects. Teaching them what poisonous plants look like, and how to read animal tracks can be very helpful. 2. Same dangers as you have walking around downtown (on urban caches). The "in town" caches can vary from parks to right beside a busy roadway. 3. You might find items that are of inappropriate nature in the containers. Although this doesn't happen very often (we've never had a problem in the 100+ we've done), some people find things in or around the cache that might not be things you want your kid to see or touch. The best thing to do with small kids is to gently empty the contents of the cache onto the floor before you go through it. This won't necessarily keep them from seeing whatever might be offensive, but those are the chances you have to be willing to take. It will keep them from getting cut or poked with something though. 4. You might become addicted. Once you start finding the caches, it's hard to stop

I bet the guy who got pushed off the roof forgot to put the log back in!! We had just started watching the show and my husband saw the box and said, "hey honey, look they're caching". We both had a little chuckle and then we hear the guy say, "you found the GPS cache". We had to back it up to listen again.....and then busted out laughing.....good thing we didn't wake the kids! I don't think it put geocaching in a bad light at all. There was very little reference to GCing at all, it was mostly ARG stuff. And, really, who's gonna watch that show and think that Geocachers go out to kill one another? I doubt anyone would even see ARG that way either. It's just a tv drama after all, it's not like they had some investigative report on Dateline or something. I think it was kinda cool seeing GC in a show, personally.

Yeah, the one at the dam must have been one of Vinny and Sue's Psycho caches , or someone's really cool anti-muggle device

Who saw the first 5 minutes of numb3rs??? They were caching!! My husband and I died laughing!! But what's this "primal key"??? Is this some FTF I haven't heard about!?

Before you write them off, be sure to check to see if the member is even active anymore. If not, it might be reason to possibly archive the cache or adopt it out. IMHO every cache should have to have an active owner (whether original or an adopted one), but that's another issue.

Wow, what's up with the site today? Triple postings and crazy errors being put into my msgs.

Sorry triple posting for some reason when I posted.

I never said not to keep searchers informed of conditions that can affect the hunt. In fact I suggested doing so in my post. I just don't think it's necessary to constantly change the terrain and difficulty ratings with each season, or when conditions change. I have caches that probably go up a 1/2 - 1 star in terrain during and right after a rain. I mention on the page that it might be significantly more difficult in wet or icy conditions but keep the terrain rating the same. Actually, I never suggested that the difficulty and terrain be "changed" at all. I said: I agree too. This issue comes up for us alot as we get a lot of snow in the winter and it can completely affect whether or not you can even make it to the cache. The best thing to do in this situation is: Rate the cache according to what the difficulty will be for the majority of the year (i.e. do you have snow or wet weather more than you do dry?) Then, make something like this comment: The cache difficulty and terrain rating are based upon (enter season here) and would change to (enter different levels here) in the (enter off season). Next, on caches that have road conditions or walking conditions that might be altered do to mud or water run off, we also add a disclaimer: The above ratings reflect what you can expect during good weather, please be advised that the (road/path) might be unusable or need a high clearance 4x4 vehicle to access during inclimate weather. Why I had quoted you was that you said they should notify finders of things such as flooding that might affect the path to the cache, but then said that most people understand winter conditions will affect the find. I understand that you said that because of winter conditions, they should not change the rating, and I agree. But it also came across that you didn't think they should mention winter conditions either as people would already understand what to expect, and that was why I made my comment. It was not to disagree with your comment on changing a rating, but that it's important to note when winter conditions will affect your cache as not everyone that searches for it will be from your local area and thereby know what to expect.

I think that depends on where you live. Personally, I live in the high desert, so I receive a lot of snow and it will greatly affect whether or not roads are closed etc. But, the majority of people who will come to my caches aren't from my small city, and the 1 to 2 hour distance away makes a huge difference in climate. It gets cold, they might get snow as well, but there is a change of 2500+ in elevation so they receive the amount of snow that we do, and beause they are larger cities, they also have a better response on road maintenance. I realize that this issue might not apply to the OP, but some of us need to comment on winter weather as the cachers we will have visiting don't know what to expect. So, if I does apply, it's a good thing to note. Just keep in mind that every cacher you will have come to your cache, may not be from your immediate area. It takes very little space and time to notify the searchers of what to expect and will ensure that they are informed and prepared...

We usually only log DNFs if we have actually searched for the cache and were not able to find it, but we have logged a DNF when we couldn't get to a cache before. We did this to let the owner know about a potential issue as we were stopped at the beginning of the road by Border Patrol and told we couldn't access the road. We thought they should know so they could talk to Border Patrol about caching and such so others wouldn't experience the same problem. I'm sure others have experienced similar situations in which a DNF notification would be appropriate, but otherwise IMHO a DNF should only be used if you tried and couldn't find the cache.

I agree too. This issue comes up for us alot as we get a lot of snow in the winter and it can completely affect whether or not you can even make it to the cache. The best thing to do in this situation is: Rate the cache according to what the difficulty will be for the majority of the year (i.e. do you have snow or wet weather more than you do dry?) Then, make something like this comment: The cache difficulty and terrain rating are based upon (enter season here) and would change to (enter different levels here) in the (enter off season). Next, on caches that have road conditions or walking conditions that might be altered do to mud or water run off, we also add a disclaimer: The above ratings reflect what you can expect during good weather, please be advised that the (road/path) might be unusable or need a high clearance 4x4 vehicle to access during inclimate weather. Hope this helps!

Creating a comprehensive list is an impossibility... along with getting people to read it. One of my fave previous 'non-food' discussion was regarding leaving dog treats in a cache. You know, it's for dogs. It makes them happy... and it's not HUMAN food, so it's ok, right? michelle Actually, your dog biscuits would fit into my idea.....I never said "food" items, I said items that were a poor choice due to their scent. A comprehensive list, at least a more comprehensive one than is in the guidelines, is completely possible as everyone would contribute to it things that they have found to have problems. I'm sure there are items that some of us wouldn't think of. We have parrots and they have very delicate respiratory systems. Many items that you wouldn't even imagine have toxic fumes or chemicals that could kill or seriously harm the birds. The board we belong to has done the same type idea by making as comprehensive of a list as possible, and allows members to post items that they found from other sources. Certainly you can't force people to read it, but if you supply it and make it quite visible, chances are most people will. However, like I said, you would need to have it readily available at the website as well because not ever cacher gets involved with the forum. Edited to add: Yes some people feel that most of these items we discuss are obvious "no-nos" and common sense would dictate. But, I'm sure everyone is familiar with the old adage "If common sense were common, everyone would have it". My point is, I don't think these people are placing these objects with the intent to damage property, but are ignorant of the fact that the item could attract animals.

We'd be happy to place one in NM. Let me know what you need us to do.

I recently saw the same problem, apparently caused by the aroma of Carmex lip balm. It doesn't smell like good food, but I guess standards are different for critters in the woods. And I don't think it takes super-strength for a racoon or other curious animal to get into an ammo can. If they pick at the outside of the container long enough, they'll probably pop the latch. After that, just a matter of time... I don't think it necessarily would need to smell like something "edible" for an animal to get into it. Animals also use their urine to mark their territory. The carmex and such may not smell like something to eat, but make the animal feel threatened and they could then attack the cache in defense. Most animals also use their mouths to explore the world around them, so it could also be that their curiosity was sparked by the smell. Think of how some dogs "greet" people by aiming for their privates. I don't think food is necessarily on their minds. Studies have shown that deer can smell up to a mile away, bear up to three miles. Coytoes are somewhere inbetween and can smell things under a foot of snow. I think a good idea would be to make a nice big list of items that are a bad idea to use as swag because of scent and make it a sticky to put in the forums. I know there are some things that are stickied, but they're all lumped into one group and that keeps people from reading it because of it's size. If the sticky just had the titile "Poor swag choices" or similar, it might help. I doubt people put items in maliciously, they just don't stop and think about it. Edited to add: It might also be a good idea to make the list for the website as well. I know some examples are listed in the guidelines, but a comprehensive list could be helpful. You don't always think about an item's scent and people might be trying to follow the guidelines and not realize that something they're putting in smells.

I haven't purchased this particular item before, but the ones similar to it can have the color removed by light hand sanding. They will be silver, but can also be easily repainted to whatever works for your needs. The hanging strap would make it nice for winter applications since you could hang them in a tree. By the way, if you choose to use the film canister route, Target seems to get more of the Fuji ones in our area. Anywhere that has a film processing lab will usually give you the containers if you ask. We use them for one of our swag items. We make mini CITO containers that hold a non-latex glove and a trash bag.

The first one we put out wasn't a very good choice either. The location was great, but while the container has held up, it seems to be a poor choice in our eyes. Now, our cache, like yours, has a name based on a part of the cache that we plan to change (in our case, the container). It may have to have the coordinates altered a bit for the new larger container. I was told that I could change coordinates, and my container, and the name without archiving it. Maybe I got poor info, but you should look into it. If the info I got was good, you should be able to clean up and move it to a better local as long as it's within proximity rules for other caches. I think CITO is ALWAYS the best option, not how long your cache has been there.

You know...I found that out--and I'm really surprised. My first multi find was in a park (that I was familiar with) and I had a great time walking a loop in a pretty park with the bonus of some cache hunting. Thoroughly enjoyed it because of the walk. Exercise! Pretty day! When I placed my first cache (in this same area that I want to place the 2nd), I was very surprised to see that people didn't flock to the new cache listing. I worked really hard on it and was so excited. The logs came in slowly. All complimentary but... I guess I'm finding out that not that many people like a good hike in the woods. I can't understand that personally. I'd say my first cache takes about a half an hour to find all 3 stages and get back to your car. Maybe more if you get stuck and have to look a while. My second one, if I get it placed, will take about the same or a little more. There is one single cache in this area. My goal was to have enough caches in this recreation area that someone could go to there and get several caches over a period of a couple of hours. Wouldn't have to keep getting in and out of a car driving around for short hunts. I guess its just me loving being in the woods. It was SOOO beautiful there last weekend with fall starting to kick in. I can't imagine someone not enjoying a hunt like that. But...everyone has what is cachelicious to them I guess. I'll keep making hiking multis and regulars as my defense against micro spew for as long as I can find available space. Please don't be deterred by the lack of "finds". I wish more people would place caches along nice hikes in the woods. If you look at my profile, you'll see that I've done a lot of drive up type caches, but that's because we chose to focus on our state challenge from the beginning (we're newbies) and we did quick caches along the way. But, as an avid hiker, I can tell you that a nice hike to a cache is so much more rewarding than the quick drive up type. Yeah, less people will go and it's a shame, but those who do go will really be glad you took the time. There's such a large saturation of mindless caches in most large cities. They're fine and have their place in the game, but lack much of a point other than "just because". There are cachers out there that look for a purpose in caching. Keep doing it for them.

I have to agree with Paleolith (sorry didn't want to quote all that). When I read the letter, it appeared positive to me. The first thing I did was tell my husband that NPS is now allowing caches! They have to put out guidelines. The parks weren't formed for us to have a grown up playground, they were formed to preserve some of our natural resources. Their first priority is to preservation, not us having fun. But, it's clear that they are willing to work with the community to find ways of for the public to enjoy themselves and still protect our wilderness. The NPS has some fabulous programs currently running for a vast array of personalities and needs. I know it's human nature to not like restrictions put upon us, but most of you don't realize just how bad these parks could get. We have a few national monuments near us, and the first national preserve to be owned and run by a board of trustees (the Valle Grande). This is a new program set up because the NPS is losing so much money. Our park is so restrictive, we have only 2 trails that are free. One day a year, the park is opened up to the public. We went last year, along with over 20,000 people. It took us 5 hours to drive 2 miles into the park. We didn't even get to see it! If you want to hike in the park, it's $15 a DAY for ONE person! Try that with a family of 5. The pass doesn't cover this park either. There's a lottery to hunt, to fish, and although they offer some really cool excursions, they're outrageously priced. While I know my mention of the Valle is off topic, my point is that NPS may be restrictive, but they're willing. The situation could be so much worse, it's just nice to see that they heard the geocacher's voice, and they're trying to work with us. I think what we need to do, is what I said above, prove to them that cachers care; show them that we are also willing to compromise with them and to improve our park system by doing so. We just might find that some of the restrictions will then open up.