TeamJiffy

I like J.I.'s slogan of "You are the search engine!" I had no idea it would become so literal! I can imagine it now... "Whenever Joel wakes up, he has to slowly, at a steady pace, rotate in two complete circles to re-align his electronic compass" "Hmm... Joel and Fran's house is creepy... all of their furniture points *exactly* due north!" "Why, when I drive Joel around town, does he slowly turn his head, as if he is looking at a single spot?" "Oh, he's just pointing towards the nearest cache." "Why is Joel muttering under his breath... 0.6, 0.5, 0.4, 0.3, 0.2, 0.1, 520, 500, 490, 480, ...?"

With all respect, I think J.I. made a mistake on this cache.. The owner clearly stated up front that it was Bible-themed. They said if you don't like that, don't hunt the cache. As far as I know, it doesn't contain items such as "5 sins forgiven for the price of 3" coupons, good "this week only at the 1st Church of Wherever". As far as I know, this cache does not say "come to church XYZ in town ABC", with the placer of the cache somehow benefiting materially if a hunter decides to later visit church XYZ in town ABC. I'd like to compare this to a cache I hunted (I did not create this cache!) based on "Fellowship of the Ring". The final location contained a number inexpensive Lord of the Rings items. Naturally, even though the owners didn't say to do this, you'd want to keep with the theme of the cache, so you may want to leave a "Lord of the Rings" themed object as well. To solve the puzzle, you'd either have to borrow from the library, or purchase from the store, a copy of "Fellowship of the Ring", either way, the Tolkien family estate made money somewhere along the line for the book, and Tolkien Enterprises profited from the licensing agreement for the items placed in the cache, and the new LotR items that hunters may themselves place in the cache. Sounds like this cache is a magnet for profit and commercialism. I just cannot, at any realistic level, distinguish between the fantastic Lord of the Rings/Fellowship of the Ring cache I hunted and this cache, other than the obvious points of terrain difficulty, location, that are irrelevent for this discussion. Until I understand what distinguishes this archived cache from the Fellowship of the Ring cache, I'd like to understand why they are treated differently. Obviously, as everyone can tell, I am absolutely NOT arguing that the Fellowship of the Ring cache get archived! I believe this Bible cache should be unarchived, as long as the "as far as I know" statements are indeed true. -Joel

I told my wife about Geocaching after I learned about it on the web. She thought "ANYTHING to get Joel outside and walking" and supported me in the idea. Since my birthday was coming up, she decided to research GPS units herself and pick one up as a gift! She went on the first cache hunts with me, a little nervous after our first two, and I wasn't sure I 'liked' GeoCaching yet - but when we visited our first multi-cache, well, it was so well done (West Side Story in San Jose area) we were both hooked. Now, we have invited her family - and it was a dismal failure, because we visited a cache with them in Florida, and the final location was mosquito infested. I don't think we created any new "Geocachers" there. But, with two different set of friends in the SF Bay Area, we have gone, and they both have liked it. We are visiting my parents in Minnesota in a couple of weeks - and knowing what worked and what didn't (avoid mosquitos and ticks on someone's first adventure - make it more suburban/urban vs. rural, at least for those we know), we hope to make GeoCachers out of them! -Joel

We carry a couple over-the-counter antibiotic creams, and sunblock, and spare batteries (including a spare battery pack for the cell phone)

...if we actually get to the cache coordinates, and look, but cannot find, it becomes a 'not found'. If we have to stop because of something irrelevant to the cache itself: darkness, an ankle that twists (as happened to me once), or whatever, then we don't report anything, because we have nothing of value to tell anyone - it would be equivalent to reporting "we started out for the cache, but as we were going out the door, the phone rang and it was Fran's mom, and they chatted forever". Who cares to know that? It's not useful for anyone. We've only found 24 caches, and have been lucky enough not to run into a situation where we get to the cache coordinates, but cannot find the cache no matter how hard we search. I am sure we will run into this problem given time.

Hi - We're a team - as Fran puts it, "we are stuck with each other - so we have to get used to doing things together!" We don't do caches without each other - I suppose if for some reason we did one or two, we'd log them as "Joel and Fran" but put a "Joel only" or "Fran only" comment in the log. (And then, the other would try to find it to keep us in sync, then we'd edit the log and remove the "only" comment.) Now, about "fair" or "unfair" - I view it this way: It's just like a 5k run: If you are trying to be in a select small group, at the very front of the pack, then all the rules apply - and apply stringently. If you are one of the many in the pack (like Fran) or one of the losers in the back (like me, Joel) well, who really cares what time you achieve? The goal you are trying to achieve is a personal best (like Fran) or just claim, by gosh, you FINISHED the thing (like Joel), and that's that. But, in caring or not caring, don't give the impression that you're in the 'select group up front' if you are not. Applying this logic to geocaching: As long as we state in our logs if its just one of us (assume both if nothing said) and don't really get out of sync by more than a handful or so either way, we are doing everything right. I think anyone who worries if our "20" logs contain a solo visit or two is worrying a bit too much about nothing, if you see what I mean. Now, if for some reason we showed "100 caches in one month!" and bragged about it and really it was 50 Fran, 50 Joel solo caches, well, then, there is a fair complaint... -Joel

Hi - We're a team - as Fran puts it, "we are stuck with each other - so we have to get used to doing things together!" We don't do caches without each other - I suppose if for some reason we did one or two, we'd log them as "Joel and Fran" but put a "Joel only" or "Fran only" comment in the log. (And then, the other would try to find it to keep us in sync, then we'd edit the log and remove the "only" comment.) Now, about "fair" or "unfair" - I view it this way: It's just like a 5k run: If you are trying to be in a select small group, at the very front of the pack, then all the rules apply - and apply stringently. If you are one of the many in the pack (like Fran) or one of the losers in the back (like me, Joel) well, who really cares what time you achieve? The goal you are trying to achieve is a personal best (like Fran) or just claim, by gosh, you FINISHED the thing (like Joel), and that's that. But, in caring or not caring, don't give the impression that you're in the 'select group up front' if you are not. Applying this logic to geocaching: As long as we state in our logs if its just one of us (assume both if nothing said) and don't really get out of sync by more than a handful or so either way, we are doing everything right. I think anyone who worries if our "20" logs contain a solo visit or two is worrying a bit too much about nothing, if you see what I mean. Now, if for some reason we showed "100 caches in one month!" and bragged about it and really it was 50 Fran, 50 Joel solo caches, well, then, there is a fair complaint... -Joel

I think very highly of charities that help people obtain and maintain trained dogs to compensate for their blindness or deafness. I also respect the great love that forms between animal and owner. However, an entity that solicits money is an entity that solicits money. Let's keep the rule clean: no monetary solicitation, no commercial caches, and not cross into deciding which ones are appropriate or not based on our own desires/prejudices. -Joel

MyBoys&Me: Welcome to Geocaching! Just a few things to note: You are welcome here - and it's great that you've discovered GeoCaching. It kind of stinks at any time, for anyone, when they have an idea that sounds great to them, and it seems like everyone is stomping on it. What's really hard to remember at these times (and I've been there, in other settings, not in Geocaching), is that the people who you think may be hitting you pretty hard with their comments right now, or who may seem to be petty or close-minded, have faced a whole range of situations trying to protect this activity you have begun to love. Jeremy, Eric and the others probably get all sorts of things thrown their way, and the only way to keep the insane from happening is to give no quarter to well-intentioned small things, that may give those outlandish uses of Geocaching an excuse to claim things like "You let her do it! Why not me?!" Imagine: Hey! I want a Geocache that ends up on the sales floor of my car dealership (I can say this, my dad's a car dealer!)? What, I can't have one! But you let the garage sale through - tell me, what *exactly* is different except that her sale lasted only a few days? Well, then how about my 2-day used-truck clearance sale I'm holding down the road? That seems about the same - just bigger and more organized." Believe me, from my own experience, I can guess (don't KNOW) that Jeremy and Eric face this sort of stuff. So, this means they have to stay firm. Now, the Groundspeak crew neither asked for my 'apologistic' note here, and may not appreciate it. It's just that I think they are doing a great job, and I don't want their execution of doing that turn off a new fan of GeoCaching! My wife and I are so in love with this new activity that we want everyone to be enjoying it now!

MyBoys&Me: Welcome to Geocaching! Just a few things to note: You are welcome here - and it's great that you've discovered GeoCaching. It kind of stinks at any time, for anyone, when they have an idea that sounds great to them, and it seems like everyone is stomping on it. What's really hard to remember at these times (and I've been there, in other settings, not in Geocaching), is that the people who you think may be hitting you pretty hard with their comments right now, or who may seem to be petty or close-minded, have faced a whole range of situations trying to protect this activity you have begun to love. Jeremy, Eric and the others probably get all sorts of things thrown their way, and the only way to keep the insane from happening is to give no quarter to well-intentioned small things, that may give those outlandish uses of Geocaching an excuse to claim things like "You let her do it! Why not me?!" Imagine: Hey! I want a Geocache that ends up on the sales floor of my car dealership (I can say this, my dad's a car dealer!)? What, I can't have one! But you let the garage sale through - tell me, what *exactly* is different except that her sale lasted only a few days? Well, then how about my 2-day used-truck clearance sale I'm holding down the road? That seems about the same - just bigger and more organized." Believe me, from my own experience, I can guess (don't KNOW) that Jeremy and Eric face this sort of stuff. So, this means they have to stay firm. Now, the Groundspeak crew neither asked for my 'apologistic' note here, and may not appreciate it. It's just that I think they are doing a great job, and I don't want their execution of doing that turn off a new fan of GeoCaching! My wife and I are so in love with this new activity that we want everyone to be enjoying it now!

We notice that too. One cache we visited had an obviously well-loved doggie-chew-tennis-ball in it... Cache logs we fear: "Took the Rolex; left a Burger King plastic toy" "I need Tupperware. Left a gumball, took the container."

We notice that too. One cache we visited had an obviously well-loved doggie-chew-tennis-ball in it... Cache logs we fear: "Took the Rolex; left a Burger King plastic toy" "I need Tupperware. Left a gumball, took the container."

This is a topic I just wanted to create to go beyond the set of "eco-worry" or "will we be banned from park XYZ worry" or "gun worry" or "whatever worry" threads (all important!).... ...but to go beyond those, and just simply jump up and say HOO-RAY!, YIPEE! YAY! (and for Jolly B.) HOODY-HOO! for the pure pleasure that Geo-Caching brings! ...It's great! Wonderful! Has brought joy to both my wife and I - and brought us more together, because we SHARE this joy! It's a blast! It immediately removes the cares and worries from work - in a matter of seconds!! YAY for GEOCACHING!!! Clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap .... cheer cheer cheer cheer clap cheer cheer clap cap... ...if you feel the same, join in!! -Joel and Fran

I (Joel) think religious caches are okay if documented clearly as such in the description page. We've visited a sewing themed cache, for example, so we were cool with the results. There are other themed caches. IMHO, if someone says "Christian" (or Jewish, or Islamic, or Bhuddist, etc.) theme in the description, well, fair-warned. We also would have hated to visit the sewing themed cache without knowing it ahead of time, as the trinket we would have had with us would not have been an appropriate exchange. -Joel

I agree with Cire's comments re: the quality of the press release, but kathy88, why does it anger you? (I am noticing your mad 'smiley' face)

It seems to me that a few things make this issue largely go away. I list my own thoughts below. However, we also should calm down. Either 'eco-freak' or 'personal-liberty-freak' doesn't cut it... common sense does... Follow Jeremy's rules - they make lots of sense Use common sense - don't put caches in places that are clearly going to cause problems to environment - obviously, as my father would put it "worrying about one grass-blade in a ball-field" shouldn't happen, but don't put a cache in a bald-eagle's nest... When you visit a cache, if you notice that it seems to have made a section of a nice place a bit of a dump, let the cache owner know If you place a cache, read what people write, visit it yourself, and deal with it. If you find the cache site is a dump, move the cache

Go and "Mark" the current spot, but immediately edit the coordinates by using the 'cursor' to go down to hi-lighting lat/long and press enter, then edit...

I suggest it be given to significant managers in Minnesota's Department of Natural Resources, and other places who give rude responses to Geocachers. There are two issues we are facing. They are different. 1) Geocaching is reaching a point where it is becoming 'known'. We have to pro-actively make sure the first impression of 'society at large' re: Geocaching is an extremely positive one. The poster of this thread gives us an A+ example of doing this. 2) As taxpayers, we expect and demand courteous treatment (does not equal 'servitile' or 'fawning') from public representatives. Taxpayers of Minnesota (my home state, and I am embarrased by the MN/DNR post of "Tough") must be furious about issue 2, but work as partners with Minnesota about issue 1, and keep them separate.

I think we have to respect the situation we are in when caching. College campuses worry, bluntly, about rape. At least they did when I was in college. Now they worry about abduction and murder, too... If you are not of college age, and are wandering around a campus, especially at night off of normal paths, etc., you can bet the campus police will investigate. And the honest answer is: they should! I don't think any amount of explaining Geocaching will help them from investigating you, because they still have to do so. If you can convince them you are a Geocacher - good for you, but you have to realize the situation they are in, and therefore you are in. In fact, the more cachers they find, the more they'll be annoyed, because they have to investigate every case brought to their attention - and the cachers being found as 'decent people, but having to be investigated' will just be overhead for them - they can't assume "they're okay if they have a GPS" Explore college campuses during the day - don't go to caches near dormatories, etc... YES, I'd love to cache everywhere and be trusted. But until every cacher is willing to leave a cache in their home, and leave their door unlocked for any cachers wandering by, we really shouldn't be surprised that areas like campuses have to be treated with care. Now, in no way am I saying that the cacher posting this note is doing nothing but the up-and-up and is not an excellent example of a participant in our shared activity. I'm just saying that, especially with schools and such, we should expect that there are certain areas where people really have a vested interest in make sure we are given a hard time, and that's the way the world is... SIGH!!!

I think we have to respect the situation we are in when caching. College campuses worry, bluntly, about rape. At least they did when I was in college. Now they worry about abduction and murder, too... If you are not of college age, and are wandering around a campus, especially at night off of normal paths, etc., you can bet the campus police will investigate. And the honest answer is: they should! I don't think any amount of explaining Geocaching will help them from investigating you, because they still have to do so. If you can convince them you are a Geocacher - good for you, but you have to realize the situation they are in, and therefore you are in. In fact, the more cachers they find, the more they'll be annoyed, because they have to investigate every case brought to their attention - and the cachers being found as 'decent people, but having to be investigated' will just be overhead for them - they can't assume "they're okay if they have a GPS" Explore college campuses during the day - don't go to caches near dormatories, etc... YES, I'd love to cache everywhere and be trusted. But until every cacher is willing to leave a cache in their home, and leave their door unlocked for any cachers wandering by, we really shouldn't be surprised that areas like campuses have to be treated with care. Now, in no way am I saying that the cacher posting this note is doing nothing but the up-and-up and is not an excellent example of a participant in our shared activity. I'm just saying that, especially with schools and such, we should expect that there are certain areas where people really have a vested interest in make sure we are given a hard time, and that's the way the world is... SIGH!!!

You know, I realize that replying to your own topic is sort of like claiming a find on the same cache more than once, however... ...I just realized that Benchmarks meet all the qualities of those 'wooden markers' I talked about in my previous post... caches you can have a joy finding that are ALREADY part of the environment! I guess Jeremy thinks ahead for all of us!

You know, I realize that replying to your own topic is sort of like claiming a find on the same cache more than once, however... ...I just realized that Benchmarks meet all the qualities of those 'wooden markers' I talked about in my previous post... caches you can have a joy finding that are ALREADY part of the environment! I guess Jeremy thinks ahead for all of us!

100 caches - wow! Fran and I are only at 17, in our first month, and we marvel at your accomplishment, and that of the other cachers who have found so many! We still can't seem to find more than 3 in a day, 4 in our best day, there's always that one cache that takes us forever! I guess the 'new-bie' title is still true for us!

100 caches - wow! Fran and I are only at 17, in our first month, and we marvel at your accomplishment, and that of the other cachers who have found so many! We still can't seem to find more than 3 in a day, 4 in our best day, there's always that one cache that takes us forever! I guess the 'new-bie' title is still true for us!

Hi - Nobody will likely believe this, but quite independent of seeing the article from the Orange County newspaper re: "New Game in Town: Habitat Damage" I've been thinking about rules for ecologically safe / non-annoying caching, and was going to post some thoughts on it today. I know, I know, we haven't placed any caches, and have only found 17, so we sound like the unmarried marriage counselor, who happens to be only 4 years old, but what the hey, that's the Internet - everyone gets a voice, whether they deserve one or not! Here are some thoughts... For all parks, consider: Should people be tromping around there, or is it a generally safe place for people to 'roam' - I am talking about environmental impact, not safety of hiker (that's difficulty level - "safety" for one may be "risky" for another) When visiting your cache, look to see if people have protected the environment around it - if new trails are leading to your cache, etc., perhaps it's in a bad place and it's time to remove it. For caches in urban settings, city parks, etc. consider: Micro caches - such as those 35mm film cannisters attached to magnets, or even a virtual cache that really needs thought. Make it a 'puzzle' Under brush that naturally lies around by some trees - in an area that is not ecologically fragile For caches in county/regional parks (usually more rural than city parks, less isolated than state/national: Keep on a trail, or just a couple feet away. Require people to have to wait until nobody is by a trail, vs. bush-wacking. Don't place the cache in a place which would encourage someone to go 'cross-country' to save time finding it, etc... If the park is a PRESERVE, meant to protect some areas of fragile eco-systems, consider not placing a cache in it at all, or doing the micro-cache or virtual cache variety. The goal should be to get people to the park Of course, talk to people running the park - explain where you would like to place the cache, and let them know they can always say 'no' - set a goal, make YOU the person they first discuss Geocaching with, vs. finding someone's poorly placed cache. Find out if there is a place that may be better - perhaps getting people to a nice part of the park they would otherwise miss... First impressions make a difference - make that park's first impression of Geocaching a positive one! For state/national parks: They are there for a reason. For us to enjoy, and leave to future generations to get an idea of unspoilt wilderness. We *have* an Internet site (this one!) to log our finds - and access to it is wide-spread. Perhaps, subtle 'markers' (wooden stakes - so if abandoned, eventually decompose) put in soil or rocks, with the Geocache Waypoint ID stamped on it and perhaps a 'secret number' to send the cache owner to verify a log, is enough to tell you 'you've found it' and this is far less likely to have people think of 'litter' vs. a plastic tupperware container or ammo box. The marker may also be a way to avoid people 'worrying about bombs' in caches. I know most of you may really disagree with me - but this is what I believe. And to me, finding the cache and logging it online is the important thing - actually opening the box, finding some silly trinket, and putting one in is a bit of an overhead. I wouldn't mind simply finding the little wooden stake/marker and recording info on it, and sending it along. Of course, people could 'cheat' and claim victories by sharing these - but we don't compete with cache find rates, of course! We keep track of our own progress.. I'm sure a few may like these ideas, and I am sure many would object, but as Geocaching grows in popularity, we seriously have to think about how we 'scale' the activity to large numbers of users in a way that society won't lash back on. I'd PREFER to have the ecologists and naturalists praise Geocaching for getting people out in the wilderness, vs. having them 'annoyed at the litter'. I love this activity. It has, seriously, brought me needed exercise and brought my wife and I closer together, in a wonderful shared activity. I worry about a day when people try to stop this activity in its tracks because of a mis-guided feeling that we don't care about the environment. We DO. We care about it more than just about anybody -Joel