survey tech

Of course terrorists are capable of using a computer and getting the coordinates, but they have no way of using them unless they possess, and understand how to use, guided missile technology, and there is no evidence of that. If they had missiles and were capable of launching them, they would not be blowing themselves up in their attacks. The coordinates are of no use to anyone outside our country unless they intend to use them for missile targeting purposes.

I agree, coordinates are of no value to terrorists, since they have no way of using them. They choose their targets based on economics and politics. Our control system is of no significance to them. The only way it could ever be used against us is if a foreign power actually invaded our country and took over part of the country. They could then use the coordinates for strategic movement planning purposes. After all, coordinates are really nothing more than a means of mapping.

Note that the designation is 7016 B, but the stamping is 7016 B 1911 42. Thats the tip off, it was probably visited by helcopter in 1942. There are a large number of stations in the Rockies and Sierras that can only be reached by helicopter. Surveyors have occasionally been stranded for days at these locations when bad weather closed in on them, making it impossible to pick them up.

A great example of things that seem obviously wrong, but are in fact correct, given the proper frame of reference.

Thats right, the early survey crews were instructed to use the post office, railroad depot, etc., as a starting point for their descriptions, because these were unique and unmistakeable places in each locality that everyone could easily identify. I agree that thinking is now outmoded. The directions given in the older descriptions to the reference objects were often just eyeballed, without even a compass being used. General directions were deemed sufficient for the description, since the precise directions to these objects, which were calculated subsequently, along with the rest of the station data, were published in the reference objects section of the datasheet. So for tri-stations at least, a precise direction to each reference mark is virtually always provided.

I would guess that you are right, Art, that there should certainly be at least one NGS marker in existence in every county. Also, do not let the absence of those designated as found influence you. Many locally well known markers are never reported found, because everyone who uses them already knows about them, so reporting is considered pointless, and this is especially true in the most sparsely populated areas.

There is an interactive map on the NGS website, under the datasheets heading.

Geodetic markers were, and still are, placed with respect primarily to convenience, permanence and accessibility, unlike boundary markers, which must occupy a specific location, so you are right that there is no consistent pattern to them. There are a lot of them along railways, for example, because this was the best path for the survey to follow at the time they were set, and it also made the marker locations relatively easy to describe, find and use, as the various regions were settled and developed. It is not always necessary to set a tripod over a point to use it, in fact, to use a benchmark for conventional leveling, a level rod is held on the disk and observed from a random location nearby, so any solid surface can be a suitable benchmark location. There are several old message threads also discussing these subjects.

J 405 is a legitimate benchmark in Coconino County, which has a huge number of vertical control points listed in the NGS database. Its easy to look it up by designation, which shows that the PID is HN0668. Unfortunately, no data is listed for it. Some data is inevitably misplaced in such a massive system.

If the two points are within a few feet of each other and they are the same distance from the road, there is no obvious explanation, it would be advantageous to know what is marked on them. If one is farther from the road than the other, they may represent a jog in the right-of-way line.

I am not sure how many states have anything like that on the internet yet, but no doubt there will be more data, and better access to it, coming on line in the future.

All of the foregoing info is perfectly correct, of course, but I would add that non-NGS points should be recognized as equal in importance to the NGS points. In fact, many of the local networks were begun from NGS points, many of which have been lost, so the local points now effectively preserve and perpetuate the original work. The process of monumentation, and then preparing and submitting point data to NGS standards, adds a significant extra cost to any project, which must ultimately be paid by the community, either through higher fees for survey work, or through taxation if the work is performed by public agencies. Therefore, a decision must be made at the outset of the project as to whether such extra cost is justifiable, and if so, it must be built into the project. In short, just because a given point is not in the NGS database does not mean it should be viewed as any less valuable.

Very good, those are some very early ones indeed. It makes sense that they would turn up near old buildings that have been protected for their historic value. It may turn out that you happen to be in one of those areas where disks were first put to use.

Yes, it could be a christian cross, but its quite a coincidence if its right on top of the marker. Targets like this are not set by NGS and are not usually mentioned in the description, since they are not intended to be a permanent accessory to the marker, but just a convenient way for local surveyors to turn angles to the marker without having to visit it repeatedly to set up one of their own temporary targets and then fetch it back down. It may well be that it was put up by a local religious group, somewhere nearby, and then moved to the marker by a surveyor, where it now serves both purposes. Theres no reason to suspect anyone is buried there, its usually just a demonstration of faith by the community.

The rebar were probably used to anchor the cross-shaped target, guy wire fashion, to help keep it upright in windy conditions. If there are any remains of old wire or rope laying around, that would be confirmation of this. The cross and rebar may have been there for years. I have seen some old targets like this that were over 50 years old.

There is no maximum distance, in fact witness posts are sometimes deliberately placed several feet away from the actual marker, in areas where vandalism has been a problem, to throw the vandals off. You need to note the direction and distance, which is usually given in the description. There are also a great many cases where the witness post has been pulled out or knocked out and stuck back in at a different place, which obviously throws everybody off track.

In the vast openness of the west, points with a cross, or a target of some other shape, were often erected by surveyors to make the point visible over a great distance, so generally I would not disturb it. If it is on public land, with no development, construction or surveying activity anywhere around for several miles, then it is probably left over from some old mapping project, has already served its purpose, and may be moved. If it is on private land it would be best to consult the property owner before moving anything. This one may still be in use, since it can be seen from the town or highway. Even though it is leaning, it may still be good enough for certain uses. Remember, the NGS is not the end user of these points, the surveyors in your community are.

Thats an excellent find, a classic example of the high quality of the early work. It appears that most of the geodetic work in that area was done in 1934 and 1960, but none of the stations set or used at those times list this point among their reference objects, so for some reason it appears that it was seldom if ever used. I suspect it may be either because it was surrounded by overgrowth, making it difficult to achieve visibility, or because access to it was relatively difficult, or both. It was probably one of the first geodetic points established in Wilson County, there is only one listed, Lebanon North Base 1877, that is older. The spot chosen for this marker in 1879 proved to be of relatively scant use, since the area has remained mostly unchanged by development over the years, but because of the absence of development, the marker has survived, meaning that it is now of significant historical value. It could be the only surviving marker of its specific type in Tennessee. Like all remote old markers, it may be that the best way for it to contimue to survive is to just leave it alone in its remote anonymity, which has served it well for all these years. If, however, there is any chance that development may threaten its existence in the forseeable future, steps should be taken, in cooperation with state and/or county historical societies, and the state society of surveyors, to protect it from destruction, either accidental or deliberate. Since it was set in 1879, next year will be its 125th anniversary. It would be interesting to try to research the date it was set and arrange for a comemorative ceremony on that date, dedicating it as a historic monument. There may be some surveyors in Tennessee who would be interested in doing this. Anyway, its a great example of the kind of points that are still out there in the parts of the country that have been untouched by civilization, which as I have said before, are the ones that really need to be found, in the sense of being rediscovered, verified and preserved, rather than those in the urban and suburban areas, which are so frequently used that seeing them is really more like visiting than finding

In 1910, the use of caps or disks was still in its infancy, so its easy to imagine a crew running out of them and having to use one they had left over from a previous project. Nevertheless, its a very nice find and quite possibly unique.

Stations are a form of linear measurement, representing a distance along a route from a given terminus, not typically marked in the field. The reference is probably to a set of plans for the highway or railroad in question. I would expect that wording to describe a bare rod marker, at or just below the surface, probably under a lid, with concrete poured around it, and just a few inches of rod exposed above the concrete. The reference to the witness post does not seem to make sense.

There is a major distinction between being a Professional Land Surveyor and being a field or office technician, like myself, working in the land surveying and/or civil engineering industry. The former requires completion of a rigorous process covering several years, combining education, experience and testing, to obtain the status of a licensed professional. The latter, however, like most jobs, is open and available to anyone with a positive attitude, a genuine interest and the willingness to learn. Most employers in surveying and engineering advertise openings in their local newspaper and are very often willing to consider individuals with the aforementioned qualities, who have no surveying experience, for entry level positions. Many outstanding men have indeed worked their way up through the surveying profession, in fact, 3 of the 4 faces on Mount Rushmore became surveyors on their way to becoming Presidents.

I would think someone working there in the maintainence or engineering department could tell you if you can get in touch with them.

NGS crews do the same thing. I have seen many descriptions that refer to the knowledge of local individuals, as long as the person giving the information had specific personal knowledge of the marker before it was destroyed, rather than mere hearsay.

Blank ones are not terribly uncommon. In some cases, one crew sets the markers and another crew stamps them later, sometimes only after the data gathered by the first crew has been processed and verified to be correct. The procedure varies from one project to another.

I appreciate your philosophical attitude, our entire epoch is less than the blink of an eye in geologic time, or as Omar Khayyam put it in The Rubaiyyat "Our passing, this world shall heed, as the sea may heed a pebble cast".