survey tech

RR R/W width varies radically with 50 feet from centerline of track probably about average. Here in the east, especially in urban areas, it is mostly fenced and thus obvious. A visit to the office of the county tax assessor to look through the county tax map records, which is publicly available info, will shed some light on this and many other property ownership issues. More detailed info can be found in deed records, typically housed in the office of the county clerk, also available for public inspection, although this can be very time consuming and somewhat confusing for those not familiar with legalese.

RR R/W width varies radically with 50 feet from centerline of track probably about average. Here in the east, especially in urban areas, it is mostly fenced and thus obvious. A visit to the office of the county tax assessor to look through the county tax map records, which is publicly available info, will shed some light on this and many other property ownership issues. More detailed info can be found in deed records, typically housed in the office of the county clerk, also available for public inspection, although this can be very time consuming and somewhat confusing for those not familiar with legalese.

I agree with Boundsgoer, who I suspect is in the land surveying profession, that surveyors have not abandoned the NGS database, since they still use it regularly when they need to work in an area where they have not worked before and with which they are not familiar, in order to find control points. They have, however, established their own local control databases for their own city, county, etc., which are more useful to them, and naturally they choose to spend their time keeping these up to date and let the national database stagnate. It seems to me that the comments of Boundsgoer are positive rather than negative from a geocaching standpoint and should not be seen as insulting, since he imlpies that geocachers may be able to make a contribution that surveyors no longer take time to make, and I would agree with that. Its true that the NGS info is public property and belongs equally to everyone, and also that geocachers will probably make correct reports in most cases, especially where the evidence is obvious. But in many cases, where things are not so obvious, it takes a professional trained in land surveying to make a conclusive decision on the status of a marker. Thats the reason I have offered the explanations that I have provided here, in order to bring geocachers to a more complete understanding of our national control network and the need to respect it.

I agree with all of the responses above. This is a very good example of the importance of reporting a mark as not found instead of destroyed when you fail to find it. Remember, not found indicates only that it was not recovered at that particular time and does not mean that it is not still there, whereas destroyed means that it is positively no longer there. Its not surprising that the Power Squadron failed to find these, since they usually make only a token effort to search, and you may as well ignore what they report in most cases anyway. The NGS crew may have decided not to make a thorough search for any number of reasons. They may have just decided that they did not need to use these markers at that time. Remember, not found does not mean the same thing as destroyed, well done Dawgies.

I agree with all of the responses above. This is a very good example of the importance of reporting a mark as not found instead of destroyed when you fail to find it. Remember, not found indicates only that it was not recovered at that particular time and does not mean that it is not still there, whereas destroyed means that it is positively no longer there. Its not surprising that the Power Squadron failed to find these, since they usually make only a token effort to search, and you may as well ignore what they report in most cases anyway. The NGS crew may have decided not to make a thorough search for any number of reasons. They may have just decided that they did not need to use these markers at that time. Remember, not found does not mean the same thing as destroyed, well done Dawgies.

Dawgies The marker you photographed laying in the trash pile, which is RM 2, not the azimuth mark, is obviously destroyed, but any others you have not seen would be properly described as not found. Note that the disk says reference mark and not azimuth mark. Either you or the land owner may contact a local surveyor about the status of the other markers in this group, but if he says that he knows the others have been gone for 15 years then the local surveyors are probably already aware of that fact as well. There is no particular reason for the land owner to need any of these markers to be reset, since they have no bearing upon the location of his property, but like many land owners he may not be aware of that. Again, if they really have been gone for 15 years, then they almost certainly have already been replaced by other newer markers set elsewhere in the vicinity.

Dawgies The marker you photographed laying in the trash pile, which is RM 2, not the azimuth mark, is obviously destroyed, but any others you have not seen would be properly described as not found. Note that the disk says reference mark and not azimuth mark. Either you or the land owner may contact a local surveyor about the status of the other markers in this group, but if he says that he knows the others have been gone for 15 years then the local surveyors are probably already aware of that fact as well. There is no particular reason for the land owner to need any of these markers to be reset, since they have no bearing upon the location of his property, but like many land owners he may not be aware of that. Again, if they really have been gone for 15 years, then they almost certainly have already been replaced by other newer markers set elsewhere in the vicinity.

Blazes are typically made with an axe, stripping away just enough wood to leave a permanent scar without killing the tree. If the trees are still there they should be visible, usually appearing as an oval scar about 4-5 feet above ground.

As far as laborious goes, The most physically challenging one I have been to is Bernal, in Northern New Mexico. Its an easy drive to the base of Starvation Peak, not far from the freeway, but the climb is pretty difficult. I actually had to make several trips over some sections of the climb, since I had a lot of equipment to carry to the top. Its a very historic place, where the Native Americans sieged and starved a group of Spaniards to death. It was a major landmark long before NGS got there, marking a corner of one of the largest Spanish land grants in the west. Those in the east may want to look at the description of Bernal in the NGS database to get some idea of how spectacular some of the tri-station locations out west are. In fact, there are many in the Rockies and the Sierras that can only be accessed by helicopter.

Thats a beauty all right, UTM, and in a very memorable spot. I also believe the ones on mountain tops are the finest. I think Rabun is the most beautiful spot here in Georgia with a tri-station. I agree with TG that while I have probably found enough on the job to be satisfied, I still often go a mile or two out of my way while hiking to visit another one.

Thats a beauty all right, UTM, and in a very memorable spot. I also believe the ones on mountain tops are the finest. I think Rabun is the most beautiful spot here in Georgia with a tri-station. I agree with TG that while I have probably found enough on the job to be satisfied, I still often go a mile or two out of my way while hiking to visit another one.

This is a shameful example of what I have warned that some would encounter. The point was a section corner, specifically a quarter section corner, governing property lines for up to half a mile in each direction. The GLO was the forerunner of the BLM of today. This is a felony which happens more often than most people realize and has serious consequences. Stay clear of the situation, people can get hurt when these kind of disputes reach this point. The surveyor in charge will discover the damage and deal with it, supported by the sheriff if the circumstances warrant. Once again, hunting property corners is considerably more dangerous than hunting geodetic markers.

Positively not destroyed. If you were a surveyor looking for a point to check your work against would you rather find a point that may be off slightly or find nothing at all? True, it may not be precise enough to use as a point of beginning, but it definitely could still be used for checking purposes.

Positively not destroyed. If you were a surveyor looking for a point to check your work against would you rather find a point that may be off slightly or find nothing at all? True, it may not be precise enough to use as a point of beginning, but it definitely could still be used for checking purposes.

Landnetusa is an excellent mapping site, used with increasing frequency by surveyors.

Landnetusa is an excellent mapping site, used with increasing frequency by surveyors.

You can't log it without a PID, and you can't use either of the existing PID numbers, since the stamping on the one you found does not match, so what you have amounts to a point non grata for geocaching purposes, although it is a fully valid benchmark. At least you successfully navigated your way to the right location, and you can note that the one reset in 1952 appears to have followed its predecessor into oblivion. The surveyor who set the current one in 1999 was probably working for the state, as the reconstruction of the intersection was probably part of a state highway project, and it is up to his discretion as to whether or not to report his work to NGS.

Actually, if the one you found is stamped 1999, then what you found is apparently the third marker to be placed in that location, which would mean that both earlier markers listed in the NGS database are now gone.

No, its not the same disk, but the elevation is within 2 inches of the original, so its likely that the headwall was rebuilt in place in 1952 and the new disk was set at that time, which obviously means that the original is long gone.

The only markers I have ever seen underwater were set there simply because thats where the exposed concrete was, such as in a bridge foundation, and no other solid surface was available in the area. I suppose there may be some set in this manner in order to make measurements of the water level easy, perhaps for tidal measurements. Its also true that benchmarks are often found at gaging stations along flood prone watercourses where they are used to forecast flood levels.

I agree, use the term destroyed only if you are looking at the marker and it has been completely extirpated. Countless markers remain around the country, buried and invisible but not gone. You may choose to report what you have found, indicating that you made the measurements given in the description and this is what you discovered at that spot. It is likely that the cable trenching got it, but you cannot be 100% sure.

BDT 1. My refefence to liability was in a purely ethical sense. I do not imagine its likely that a geocacher would ever be sued for providing erroneous info, but you never know these days. 2. If only 30% of the markers in your area are gone you are fairly lucky. In my experience, well over 50% of all those ever entered in the NGS database are now extinct. In highly developed areas, 90% destruction is not surprising. You are right that surveyors hardly ever bother to report non-finds. This is at least partly because no one wants to declare the point gone, only to suffer the colossal embarrassment of having the next guy come along and find it, seriously damaging the reputation and credibility of the first guy. Its also important to understand, as I have said before, that the NGS database really ceased to be a living and growing thing about 20-30 years ago and is now little more than an arcane fossil. The NGS essentially completed its original mission of supplying the nation with a comprehensive network of control points at that time and entrusted the use and care of those points to the private sector for whose benefit they had been created in the first place. In most civilized areas, the original control points have been multiplied exponentially through the efforts of local surveyors, which is known as network densification, however, this work, having been done by private companies and local agencies, became proprietary info, which understandably, they are not inclined to publish for free unlimited use by others. With regard to your conclusion, I do not know if NGS has any official position on the value of reporting, but they are there to serve and do the best they can with the severely limited funding they get. The main focus in recent years has been the development of monumentless control, based upon electronic reference stations that will eventually supplant physical monumentation. I would summarize their attitude as "Ok, America, here is a first rate control network for you to use, which took us 150 years to create, so take good care of it and enjoy it, because now its time for us to move on to other things".

Thats a decimal point not a comma, note the altitude printed on the data sheet. This is an excellent example of a very wisely chosen location by the surveyor who set it. The cannon mounting is not only very solid and stable, but its historical value virtually guarantees that it will be protected for a very long time.

Thats a decimal point not a comma, note the altitude printed on the data sheet. This is an excellent example of a very wisely chosen location by the surveyor who set it. The cannon mounting is not only very solid and stable, but its historical value virtually guarantees that it will be protected for a very long time.

Probably a hundred or more points of this kind are set all around the country every day, well over 90% of them by private surveyors, so the odds of matching one in the database with one found while randomly searching are only slightly better than winning the lottery.