Cache Canucks

quote:Originally posted by phantom4099: In theory shouldn't channel 7 be were the most transmitting power be at? Since each channel needs a different length of an antenna. But instead of 14 different antenna, do the just pick one in the middle (like CBs)? With a maximum frequency spread of 5.15MHz between the lowest and highest FRS channels, its effect on antenna length in the FRS portion of the radio spectrum (UHF) is negligible. Handheld radio antennas used for FRS (UHF) are far more efficient than those used on CB 'walkie-talkies' (HF) due to a significantly shorter wavelength. All that to say, your FRS radio will work just as well on channel 1 as it will on channel 14 [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 06:54 PM.]

quote:Originally posted by phantom4099: In theory shouldn't channel 7 be were the most transmitting power be at? Since each channel needs a different length of an antenna. But instead of 14 different antenna, do the just pick one in the middle (like CBs)? With a maximum frequency spread of 5.15MHz between the lowest and highest FRS channels, its effect on antenna length in the FRS portion of the radio spectrum (UHF) is negligible. Handheld radio antennas used for FRS (UHF) are far more efficient than those used on CB 'walkie-talkies' (HF) due to a significantly shorter wavelength. All that to say, your FRS radio will work just as well on channel 1 as it will on channel 14 [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 06:54 PM.]

Another problem with CTCSS tones ('sub-channels') is that not every manufacturer of FRS radios labels the tones the same way. Sub-channel code '2' on a radio made by company 'X' may in fact use the same CTCSS tone as sub-channel code '3' on a radio made by company 'Y'. I think that the larger 1st tier manufacturers (Motorola, Cobra, Midland) have made some effort to standardize, but there's an abundance of radios made by 2nd and 3rd tier companies that use their own unique combinations. This isn't an issue when you purchase and use a pair (or more) of the same brand/model of radio; it's when you want to communicate with a larger group of users (using various brands of radios) that this becomes a problem. The proposed solution for a group as large and diverse as ours, as put forward in earlier posts, is to simply avoid using a CTCSS tone/sub-channel entirely so that you can hear *everyone* on a given channel, regardless of who made their radio. For an illustrated example of the varied CTCSS/sub-channel assignments used by several FRS radio manufacturers, have a look at: http://www.gmrsweb.com/codetable.html If anyone is shopping for an FRS radio and is concerned about CTCSS/sub-channel compatability, you may want to consider a radio which, as part of its 'scan' function, can automatically determine which CTCSS tone is being used by a received signal (regardless of the transmitter's sub-channel code number) and then switches to that tone so that you can communicate. The Motorola T6220 that I own has that type of functionality (I'm sure there are others). [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 12:07 PM. [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 06:45 PM.]

Another problem with CTCSS tones ('sub-channels') is that not every manufacturer of FRS radios labels the tones the same way. Sub-channel code '2' on a radio made by company 'X' may in fact use the same CTCSS tone as sub-channel code '3' on a radio made by company 'Y'. I think that the larger 1st tier manufacturers (Motorola, Cobra, Midland) have made some effort to standardize, but there's an abundance of radios made by 2nd and 3rd tier companies that use their own unique combinations. This isn't an issue when you purchase and use a pair (or more) of the same brand/model of radio; it's when you want to communicate with a larger group of users (using various brands of radios) that this becomes a problem. The proposed solution for a group as large and diverse as ours, as put forward in earlier posts, is to simply avoid using a CTCSS tone/sub-channel entirely so that you can hear *everyone* on a given channel, regardless of who made their radio. For an illustrated example of the varied CTCSS/sub-channel assignments used by several FRS radio manufacturers, have a look at: http://www.gmrsweb.com/codetable.html If anyone is shopping for an FRS radio and is concerned about CTCSS/sub-channel compatability, you may want to consider a radio which, as part of its 'scan' function, can automatically determine which CTCSS tone is being used by a received signal (regardless of the transmitter's sub-channel code number) and then switches to that tone so that you can communicate. The Motorola T6220 that I own has that type of functionality (I'm sure there are others). [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 12:07 PM. [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 22, 2002 at 06:45 PM.]

...and participate in the poll being conducted on this very issue at: http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=2240989035 Before voting, you may want to read through the thread of a preliminary poll at: http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=4040927035 Cheers.

quote:Originally posted by jpesadilla: Imagine having someone else stay a little back from the Cache site maybe where the reception is a little better and be able to "Talk the searcher" into the cache, then once he/she is fairly close the base person can then come up and help in the final search. The problem with the Rhino (which I had once considered purchasing) is that the 'peer to peer' functionality you describe is *only* possible when you're communicating with another Rhino user; without at least two of these pricey horned critters, you can't transmit/receive a position to/from another person. Also, at the risk of sounding like a party-pooper, the scenario you describe wouldn't work. If the second Rhino is experiencing poor GPS reception, that means that the position it transmits as being its own (being received/displayed by the first Rhino) will also be inaccurate; it would then be difficult for the first Rhino to 'talk the searcher [second Rhino] to the cache', because he/she would have no better idea of the second Rhino user's location than the second Rhino user themselves. As much as I REALLY liked the idea of a GPS that could transmit/receive telemetry by way of FRS, the more I thought about how infrequently this would actually be useful, the more I realized that I would be better off buying a *good* GPS and a *good* FRS (rather than a unit which sacrificed features for the sake of being an 'all-in-wonder' able to do a little-used telemetry trick). In my personal case, that meant purchasing a Garmin Vista and a Motorola T6220.

quote:However, I don't like the adoption of a subchannel. I would prefer to just 'adopt' a full channel. If FRS usage becomes overwhelming (I mean, really, do people even use all 40 CB channels?), then we can talk about a subchannel. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I too believe that adopting a CTCSS tone (or 'subchannel') would hinder the intended purpose of a GeoCaching channel. That aside, the ABA's basic 'what to do when' in the event of encountering channel users other than those belonging to our group is still sound ...it just needs to be modified a bit (instead of switching to an alternate sub-channel, GeoCachers would simply move to a different channel altogether). The main point of this being 'courtesy for other FRS users' and acknowledging that the best practice is to avoid conflict ...even if it means changing channels if the situation dictates. I also agree that, in the vast majority of circumstances, the chances of a couple of GeoCachers using 1/2 watt UHF handhelds interfering with *anyone's* radio communications in the middle of typical 'GeoCaching territory' is probably slim to nil.

For what it's worth, channels that should probably be avoided are Ch1 (already a default call-channel used by everyone under the sun which could require users to 'move' after establishing contact), Ch9 (used by some SAR groups as a default emergency call-channel ...no doubt a carry-over from CB) and Ch11 (recognized by the American Birding Association as a common channel for North American birdwatchers). There may be (probably are) other groups who have 'adopted' an FRS channel, but I wouldn't be too concerned unless they had a 'national' presence and the chances of our own use conflicting with their's was high. It's probably worth pointing out that, in the eyes of both the FCC and Industry Canada, there is *NO* formal allocation of FRS channels for a specific purpose ...but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to avoid channels that are widely (if only 'unofficially') recognized for use by various groups other than our own. Regardless of the channel used, if this whole idea is to be successfully implemented, we should take the time to establish/promote some basic guidelines of simple courtesy for those occasions when non-GeoCachers might be using the 'GeoCaching' channel at a time/place where GeoCachers are actively engaged in a hunt. Taking a cue from the folks at the American Birdwatching Association (who have clearly given this whole issue in-depth consideration), I think we would be wise to adopt a similar set of recommendations when it comes to dealing with instances of 'conflict of use': http://www.americanbirding.org/resources/resfrs.htm [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 20, 2002 at 08:23 AM.]

...is channels 1 thru 7 inclusive.

In as far as the discussion of whether or not to select a channel common to both FRS and GMRS (Ch1 to Ch7), I think the idea to do so has merit. This isn't about 'FRS users' and 'GMRS users', this is about 'GeoCachers' - regardless of which radio service they're using (both of which are 'family' orientated services by the way). The FCC has seen fit to allocate a 7 channel overlap between these two services to provide limited interoperability and, despite some sour grapes from the GMRS folks, that's 'just the way it is' (there is no GMRS in Canada, so it's a non-issue up here). In the grand scheme of things (and considering a typical 'real world' scenario where you have a couple of GeoCachers thrashing through the bushes - one with an FRS radio and one with a GMRS radio), using a common channel only makes sense ...to do otherwise would exclude GeoCachers who own GMRS equipment (or cause them to purchase an FRS radio when they would otherwise not have had to). I would also be a strong proponent of avoiding the use of any CTCSS tone on whatever channel is decided on; these tones (or 'sub-channel/privacy[?] codes') are not commonly labelled between all brands of radios (which can, in itself, be confusing) and their use would largely defeat the purpose of establishing this channel in the first place ...that is, to make it *easy* and *simple* to be able to hear the transmissions of fellow GeoCachers in the same area as you are. Once a GeoCaching channel decided on, I think it would serve us well to promote it by also indicating that GeoCachers using this channel should do so with a CTCSS tone/'sub-channel' set to '0' (or 'Off').

One problem with depending on individual cache owners to list which FRS channel to use on their cache pages is that it assumes the owner has an understanding of what FRS is (or even cares); another is that it would lack standardization and invite confusion. Much better - I think - is the idea of informally establishing a well thought out 'universal' channel that would be common to all caches, regardless of location ...then it wouldn't matter whether or not a cache owner chooses to list one (or that they list one that's a good choice). In as far as the cross-band compatibility between FRS and GMRS radios is concerned (GMRS being legal only in the U.S. - which is why Garmin de-activates the 'GMRS only' channels on Rhino units destined for sale in Canada), FRS channels 1-7 are common to both services south of the border. For what it's worth, channels that should probably be avoided are Ch1 (as previously noted, it's already a default call-channel used by everyone under the sun which could require users to 'move' after establishing contact), Ch9 (used by some SAR groups as a default emergency call-channel) and Ch11 (recognized by the American Birding Association as a common channel for North American birdwatchers). It's probably worth pointing out that, in the eyes of both Industry Canada and the FCC, there is *NO* formal allocation of FRS channels for a specific purpose ...but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't try to avoid channels that are widely (if only 'unofficially') recognized for use by various groups of users other than our own.

With the relatively recent introduction FRS handheld radios in Canada (those small, inexpensive, license free, UHF two-way portables with a 1.5-3km range), has anyone considered establishing an informal 'Geocaching Channel' on which fellow geocachers might liaise, compare notes, and/or otherwise just say 'howdy' when in the vicinity of a cache? I know that birdwatchers south of the border have already done this in pursuit of their own hobby and, for many of the same reasons, such an idea might have merit among geocachers. I'm guessing that, considering many a GPS user is also a gadget freak at heart, there's more than a few of us out there who own FRS radios; chances are those same radios are already being used to keep in touch with members of our own groups when hiking, so the idea of a known 'Geocaching Channel' is merely an extension of that use (ie: being able to communicate with *other* geocaching groups and/or individuals who might happen to be within the same grid square as you, doing much the same thing as you are). This isn't intended to diminish 'the hunt', but rather to perhaps make it a little more 'social' now and then. How many times have you passed someone on the trail or spotted them at a trailhead parking area and thought "I wonder if they're here doing the same thing (geocaching) I am?" ...or perhaps you started to hike into a cache site and wondered "Is anyone already there right now ahead of me?"; being able to pull out your handy FRS radio, go to channel 'X', then transmit "This is Cache Canucks, are there any geocachers out there this afternoon...?" to find out would be kind of neat. With the range of these radios and the typical distance between where you park your car and where most cache sites are found, chances are - if there's someone hunting the same cache, at the same time, and monitoring the same FRS channel - you're going to make contact. Clearly, judging by Garmin's introduction of the 'Rhino', someone has already seen a practical connection between the use of a GPSr and an FRS radio. I'm thinking along the lines of a channel that would be common with *all* FRS radios, even the ones that come with only 1 or 2 channels; it would also use 'carrier squelch' only (no CTCSS or so-called 'privacy' tone) for the same reason. Thoughts...? [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 18, 2002 at 07:25 PM. [This message was edited by Cache Canucks on August 18, 2002 at 07:29 PM.]

...or just part with a few bucks to purchase a carrying case. After having spent several hundred dollars on a Vista, spending another $20CAD/$15USD for a carrying case to protect my investment was a no-brainer: http://shop.garmin.com/accessory.jsp?sku=010%2D10314%2D00

I can vouch for the 8-10 hour figure for a set of 1700mA-hr NiMH rechargables; that's what I typically get when using my Vista. As previous posts have mentioned, carrying two sets of rechargables (one in the Vista, one in your pocket [less any loose change!]) is more than enough to get most folks through a heavy day of GeoCaching. Just put them in the charger when you get home and you're good-to-go again in the morning. Try to get a 'smart' charger that trickles the batteries after they've been fully charged ...that way your batteries will always be 'topped up' when you go to use them (not partially discharged, as NiMH batteries will do over time even if you don't use them).

You may also want to have a look at Garmin's eTrex Vista. 24MB of memory (the highest Garmin offers, which you can never have enough of), a high-res 268x160 pixel display (the highest pixel count in the Garmin outdoor/automotive line), and a full suite of user features. All this in a true 'pocket sized' package (almost half the weight of the GPS V) and at a reasonable price (roughly $200CAD/$125USD less than the GPS V). If you're new to GPS, you may also want to consider that Garmin's eTrex line was designed around a simple user interface to specifically address the 'anyone can use it' issue; this means that you don't need a degree in mathematics or spend 2 days reading a voluminous manual in order to understand and master its functions and features. I use mine both in the car (with a suction windshield mount) and as a handheld (with rechargable NiMH batteries), and have been more than satisfied.

In the event that you do get stiffed, you may be able to recover some of your losses by way of eBay's Fraud Protection Program: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/insurance.html

In the event that you do get stiffed, you may be able to recover some of your losses by way of eBay's Fraud Protection Program: http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/insurance.html

Thanks Ander, pleasure to 'meet' you! I broke down and gave Garmin a call late last week with regard to this very question and their response was more or less the same ...although, it DID initially stump the customer service rep with whom I spoke (he had to seek the answer from another subject matter expert within Garmin). Judging by its functionality (and the lack of its descriptive text in the user's manual), it appears to me that the barometric pressure plot on the Vista is pretty much a 'biggy back' feature of the altimeter (something like getting a trip odometer on your car, mainly because the master odometer needs to be there anyway). Although the Vista's barometric pressure plot might be more useful if it enabled the user to manually reset the 'Start' of the 12 hour plot period and/or define the 'x' and 'y' axis of the plot itself (as can be done with the altimeter display), it's clear that the primary purpose of the barometer is to provide pressure data to the altimeter ...not to predict weather trends. Oh well, perhaps this is something that Garmin can address with a simple update to the software (...Garmin's R&D staff *do* read these posts, don't they?).

It's possible that, during the normal course of a model's production run, subtle changes to its internal hardware configuration are made which are more or less transparent to the user. A 1999 yellow eTrex may look and function the same as a 2002 version, yet there could very well be differences in internal components (3 years *is* a long time when it comes to computer hardware). If this is the case, then it would also make sense that new versions of software would be introduced to accommodate whatever changes may have been made to the hardware (software which, it would seem, is also compatible with earlier hardware configurations of the same model). That's my guess anyway ...the folks at Garmin are the ones who could provide the definitive answer.

If you're considering a GPSr capable of mapping, the adage "You can never have enough memory" is as valid as it is when you're shopping for a new PC. Also, when comparing screen sizes, don't just look at the actual 'size' of the screen ...consider also the number of pixels the screen is capable of displaying. Some screens, although slightly larger in physical size, have a lower pixel count than some screens that are smaller (meaning that, in some cases, a smaller screen can display greater detail). Also, unless you're planning on heading into the backwoods for a week or more at a time, don't get too hung up on battery consumption specs. Even the most battery-hungry GPSrs will run for well over 8 hours with all of their bells and whistles turned on; for most folks, 8 hours easily covers a day of geocaching (or driving, for that matter). Since you'll likely end up using rechargable batteries regardless of which GPSr you purchase, battery consumption - for most users - is really a moot point.

How about a pocket-sized version of one of those funhouse mirrors that makes a person look 200 pounds heavier?

Does anyone know what governs the 'start' and 'stop' of the Vista's 12-hour barometric pressure plot? It appears that the data which makes up the displayed plot doesn't 'wrap' (ie: it doesn't always display a full 12 hours worth of previous barometric pressure). I thought that perhaps it might have had something to do with when I actually turn the Vista 'On'/'Off' (it doesn't), or when I change its batteries (nope, not that either). I also played with resetting the altimeter and trip computer data, thinking that 'zeroing' it might serve as the 'start' of the barometer's 12-hour data collection (it doesn't seem to). Unless I missed something, the Vista's manual doesn't make any reference to this. Any suggestions...?

I've used my eTrex Vista in some moderately dense central Ontario bush (with an equally dense overhead tree canopy), and have had good results. 90%+ of the time, I was able to get position accuracy of 10 metres or less. In fact, although the lack of accuracy makes the position plot unusable, my Vista will often track one or two '12 o'clock high' satellites even while indoors.

Eveready also produces a line of rechargable NiMH batteries (AA's at 1700mAh) under the 'Energizer' name, along with a 5 hour charger that 'trickles' your batteries once fully charged so that they remain 'topped-up' until you need them. I found both the charger and the batteries available at 'Home Depot' (the charger and 4 AA's cost me about $50CAD/$30USD). Like the commercials say, "...they just keep going, and going, and going...".

I recently took delivery of a new Garmin eTrex Vista (along with a few other related goodies) from these good folks in Calgary. When it came to best price, availability of stock, placing my order, and prompt/accurate delivery, 'GPS Central.ca' was a delight to deal with. I had occasion to actually speak with a member of their staff over the phone (having placed my order online from Toronto), and he most certainly aimed to please. Highly recommended!