toddm

As to your question, the gps waypoints do make a note of elevation when a waypoint is made. However by the looks of it, they use the gps elevation value not the altimeter elevation value. At least that's what my 76csx does by default and I have not run across another setting to change it. You can alter the value when you create the waypoint. I guess that's good in cases where the gps elevation is more accurate and a person has to remember to manually change the value if the altimeter value is more accurate. I wouldn't say people have nothing good to say about the "x" units, but it's more that they are not living up to what we have come to expect from past experience from garmin. I came from a 76s and overall I do not regret buying a 76csx, the ability to use memory cards and the color screen and turn by turn routing alone are worth the upgrade, however that does not mean there are not some issues I am disappointed with. The reception is amazing, no one will argue that, and in reality it doesn't matter how well your gps functions or how many features it has if you can't get a signal in the first place. There have been some issues with accuracy not being as good, and the cursor wandering problem. I don't see either as severe, I would guess they are using in some cases less than perfect signals and lower signal strength to gain some of their extra reception and this can cause more wandering and such. However, I'd much rather have a slight bit more error/wandering and be able to get a signal than little error and no signal. My 76s or Legend would not get a signal sitting in my apartment by the patio window. With my 76csx I can get a signal in the basement with one little window anywhere in the room. On that note you have the problem with garmin units being unable to regain signal if it is lost, say if you go through a tunnel, without powering the unit on and off. Is that an end of the world problem......nah.....should it happen on a $450 gps unit....no. Will it be addressed in firmware updates......we're all waiting to find out. The display to me is great and somewhat disappointing, as it's my first color gps unit, it's obviously really nice to have the color display. Because with routing and maps in grayscale colors it can be very confusing where your route is etc. esp. in urban areas. The turn by turn routing and ability to re-route on the fly if you miss a turn is great. On the downside I miss my old 76s ability to put smaller and therefore more data information boxes on the pages. I also dislike that I can change the color of a track but not a route, to me the ability to change the color of a route is very helpful depending on if you are using topo maps the basemap or street maps or even in a rural or urban setting. The default is a red/maroon that also looks a lot like the color for interstates so that can be confusing in urban areas. The night map background is a dark blue, it would be much easier to read text and such if it was changed to pure black. The altimeter has been giving people lots of problems, erratic behavior mostly, again if my altitude is way off it's probably not a life and death deal for my use, however it is a feature you pay extra for and it should work. This hopefully will be fixed with future firmware as well. On my unit at least, to me the electronic compass is worthless. If you really need a good compass either get a nice dedicated electronic compass with 3rd axis sensors or just a nice magnetic compass. My 76s was much better than my 76csx in this respect. The 76csx is way way too sensitive to tilt to make it useful. It does now have the "hold level" indicator but you can get nearly 100 degrees of swing in your heading before the hold level indicator comes on. It's easy to tell you are tilting the unit long before the indicator turns on. For example if I sight an object and it's heading reads 270 degrees with me trying to hold the unit level, if I tilt the front end up high enough that the hold level comes on it's at 325 degrees, and if I tilt the rear up it reads 220 degrees. While that amount of tilt would be easy to notice in the field, getting say 10-15 degrees either way would be easy to do by a small amount of tilt, to me that level of accuracy is unacceptable. An 1/8" or so of tilt front or back can cause that 10 degree plus or minus swing which would be easy to do without noticing in the field. I'd hate to see the compound error on a position triangulation with 3 headings that are all off by +/- 10 degrees. On top of that I would guess the calibration is equally sensitive to tilt so you have another error factor there. So until they can get a compass that is more resistant to tilt I find the csx electronic compass to be useless for anything other than a source of complaint. They could work around this similar to what suunto has done and build a bubble level into the screen or housing of the unit for consistency, or the correct fix would be to use a 3rd axis electronic compass. It's a good unit, but it definitely seems to be having more problems than I'm used to from my past garmin experiences. Hopefully most of these things will be fixed with future firmware releases. Hopefully before garmin shifts its main focus to a new unit that will replace it. If I had it to do over again I'm not sure I would bother with the "CSX" model just because the two things you are paying for the altimeter and the compass both seem to be having major problems, they may fix the altimeter issues but the compass is what it is.

It certainly should be an option, but it's not, the only elevation you can report in a data field is the altimeter elevation, as you said at times it would be nice to be able to turn it off, they do it with the compass feature, which is equally problematic. While I realize it's an optional feature, being able to turn it off or at least set a data field to gps elevation would be a very nice feature. Esp. since at times the altimeter based elevation is horribly inaccurate over any length of time. As you said in an airplane, or even in changing weather conditions. I can let the unit sit in my house for the day with the windows open, and set a base elevation in the morning and it's not uncommon to be a couple hundred feet off by evening. I realize the gps based elevations are not that accurate either, but to be honest with that kind of swing I can see little use for using the altimeter based elevation say hiking in the mountains where pressure is constantly and quickly changing. On that note my Suunto seems to be much less prone to elevation swings. On another note I'd like to see them allow the user to add custom data pages as well, similar to the trip page, where you can add more data fields. This way if you wanted a group of data fields for biking, or driving, or hiking, etc. you don't have to mess with constantly changing them on the trip page. I'd also like to see them allow smaller data fields as the 76s used to have, you could get 3 across instead of just 2 now on the 76csx, granted it was smaller text, but it was useful to get more data on the same page, esp. since you only get one page of just data, and then you could get more data on other screens while covering up less of the original data (map, etc). Send the request to garmin, maybe they will listen and impliment the features, they should be simple software fixes. I do find it amusing (actually not) that the two features that make the csx units stand out from the cx units both are burdened heavily with problems. Garmin's units in the past have been near bullet proof out of the gate but these new "x" units are certainly not up to that standard yet.

I don't believe you can set it to do that, I guess they assume if you bought the altimeter version that's all you're intersted in (you know what they say about assume). There really should be an option for one of the data fields to be gps elevation, instead of just barometer/altimeter elevation. That actually seems very odd to me, that the gps altitude was correct, I guess I assumed the gps altitude would report the altitude based on your location as if you were on the ground, I have no clue how it could know you were above the ground in an airplane. Unless it's doing some kinda of math on a timestamp signal delay from the satelite.

Actually the 76csx does not have a 3rd axis compass, if it did it would not be sensative to tilt. The 76csx overall is a great unit but it does have it's problems and the compass is one of them. The altimeter is the other, not a good thing since both those features are why the "csx" is more expensive compared to the "cx". The 76csx I have is even worse than my old 76s with the compass. It's much much too sensative to tilting. I can easily get it to swing 100 degrees before the "hold level" indicators come on, even small amounts of tilt say 1/8-1/4" that could easily happen in the field throw readings off 10+ degrees. Calibration is a problem as well since during calibration that same sensitivity to tilt throws off the calibration itself, I've done multiple calibrations in a row and ended up with baselines off as much as 5 degrees either way. The sight-n-go is a issue as well because it's much harder to keep the tilt in check when holding the unit up at eye level than it is say at waist level. In fact I've found I get much better readings taking sight-n-go measurements at the waist and turning my body to the object instead of trying to actually sight it. Overall it's a great unit, the reception can't be beat, but it has it's issues, hopefully which will soon be dealt with in firmware updates.

This is interesting, and I don't believe it's a fix but I thought I would report it anyway. My 76csx was doing the elevation and barometer dropping out '-----' repeatedly, with all sorts of settings etc always within 10-15 minutes of running the track log. I ran across a post from a user that said a hard reset, and calibration fixed the problem for them. I figured it couldn't hurt so I did a unit reset and calibrated the alt. to a known elevation. I've ran several short tests for a hour or two here and there and since the reset, I have not had the issue. My tracklog elevations are correct and I don't get the '----' alt reading and barometer bottoming out to 54hpa. I'm going to run a longer test and see how it goes, but so far the log and elevation reported are consistant. Again this may just be a coincidence as I can't understand why a reset would fix the issue, but maybe some other people can try it and see if it helps their units. This is with auto calibration on, etc. Before I could get it to work without auto calibration off, but not on. I can only wildly guess why it might fix it, it could be that the reset adjusts some setting or calibration of the unit that powering it off an on doesn't. I agree it sounds very very thin at best, but it's certainly the only different thing I've done with the unit that has worked. Interesting at any rate, but probably not a fix.

Yeah I was wondering about that, I believe the same may be true of the lost signal problems in regaining satelite lock as well in tunnels and such. Just because I have to believe if they could fix these kind of problems with firmware it would have been done asap, just due to the severity of the problem. I will wait to send mine in until someone gets a replacement unit that actually corrects the problem, so far replacement units have all had the same issues. So they may just be replacing units to try and keep customers happy even though it's not fixing the problem. If it is a faulty hardware issue, worse yet two seperate hardware issues, one with the altimeter and one with the chipset regaining lock, they are really going to have to replace a ton of units at a huge expense. If they don't they'll be asking for a class action similar to the one sony just got tagged with bigtime from putting defective image sensors in camcorders/cameras.

I would say I can confirm it's not a low elevation issue. I have the same problems with mine at the 900-1700' range of elevations. So I don't think it's tied to being close to sea level. Also if you track the barometer on the data fields I think you will find that when the elevation crashes the barometer does the same. Mine tanks to like 54hg when the elevation crashes to -----.

Well we will agree to disagree. I think a lot of people trying to decide what gps to purchase would be interested in user opinions and problems with a unit, be it a garmin, magellan etc. One certainly cannot rely on the people behind the counters to know all the issues and features and problems with each unit. There are a lot of posts from people asking about one gps -vs- another or opinions on a certain model. There are lots of products that I might have purchased and been unhappy with if it were not reading user feedback on forums, this one and others. It's certainly not fool proof, but it is a lot better than reading magazine reviews paid for by ad dollars, or the guy behind the counter in the local sporting goods store. I do agree that customer complaints should also go to the manufacturer, but I think they should be expressed in forums as well, because prospective customers should know about problems with products as well.

No, it ain't a perfect product, but it's better than the alternative! Garmin's developers cannot realistically put these things through the paces that us users can. Of course we're going to find problems with them that they cannot detect. Who told you that you HAD to report any problems to Garmin? You should just exchange your totally defective and useless Garmin for an even more useless Magellan if you're unhappy with the unit! ...and I mean that with ALL SINCERITY! Get rid of it if you don't like it! I got better things to do than listen to you gripe! You obviously don't have better things to do, or you wouldn't have bothered to read or reply to this topic. If you don't want to hear people's feedback and opinions you should stay off forums completely because that's what 98% of the posts are. If you can't realize that a post with this topic is going to be people griping about their garmin's then you have much bigger problems to worry about. While I can see your point on some small odd problem, that only happens with 3 optional features turned on on sunday at 2pm in Canada, these problems are things simple product testing should find. If garmin's product testing is so poor that checking if a unit can reacquire satellite lock after loosing it without the unit being power cycled is unrealistic, well then they may as well not product test at all. The same with general compass accuracy and poor performance when used in the field. Things like wandering, elevation plot problems that don't seem to affect every unit, although I bet it would show up on most if more people used those features, and some of the other more rare software problems I can see slipping by, but the ones above....no way, any realistic product testing program would find those things. Like garmin as much as you want, defend them because magellan is worse all you want, but the bottom line is there is no way a gps unit that cannot regain satellite lock after being lost without being power cycled should make it to the market, there's no excuse for that one.

One of the biggest concerns I have with firmware is when the company will start shifting its major efforts to the successor’s product. That's usually when you will see firmware updates either only address major major problems or cease all together. Since many of these problems are probably firmware/software issues, once the company shifts it's focus to the new replacement product, work on fixing these problems will essentially cease. Along with the fact they can then use those things as reasons to upgrade to the new improved product. For example the last firmware update for the 76s, still a current model was in February of 2005, probably about the time garmin really started working hard on the x units. The foretrex units have not had an update since 2004 and the 12xl still in the lineup since 2003. The forerunner xx1 units since mid 2005. While a company can't put major efforts into old products, certainly the 12xl is not high on the priority list to update, about 6 months before the new product hits, firmwares cease for the older model. Unfortunately the process of simple firmware updates has allowed companies to put out products with much less product testing and it shows. In almost every product I own that has the ability to take firmware updates it NEEDS them, usually badly, it's funny how those that don't allow firmware updates usually work right from the start. It's a cheap way to do product testing, because you just put the product on the market and wait for the problems to roll in from customers then try to fix them with a few firmware updates until the next product starts being worked on. For example my nikon 5700 camera needed a couple firmware updates just to work as it should, not even counting new requested features, while I have a couple sony cameras that don't take firmware updates and they seem to work just fine out of the box. Firmware updates are a great idea, and if used properly allow companies to fix the rare overlooked problem in proper product testing, or to add features that customers request, it's too bad most companies use them as an excuse to not do proper product testing. They just toss it on the market; let a person buy it and see what they complain about that doesn’t work. I'm not picking on garmin in particular; I see it with just about every product that takes firmware updates. However, you can't tell me that if garmin had properly and extensively tested the 76/60 "x" units they would not have known about the elevation problems, wandering, the inability of the unit to reacquire satellites once signal is lost, poor compass performance etc. While it's reception may be a great improvement (no one would argue that) it is by far the most "buggy" garmin I've ever bought and I've owned a few.

THis was available in the 60CS. I'd be very disappointed if the feature was taken away with the CSX. I find it to be very useful. It's already there on the "x" units, just like the 60C/S units. Main menu>setup>page seq. Actually it's not, that's simply a function to allow you to include/order the pages that are pre programed for you to use, you can't create totally new custom pages with nothing but data fields on them. You cannot create a new page called say mountain biking with nothing but data fields (trip, speed, heading, coordiinates, time to dest. etc.) and another similar page for driving, or sky diving, or whatever it is you do. You can order and include/eliminate their built in pages, but not make your own. Granted the older units did not do this but some of them say the 76s allowed not only smaller data fields but more flexibility in the data fields. There must be 30 options of the type of data you can disply, why not make it so you can create custom pages with say 12 or 6 fields per page (3 across, 4 down, or 2 across, 3 down) So you can acutally see those peices of data without having to go into the menu and start changing fields. Should be a no brainer feature, and a simple software mod.

Another feature that should be a no brainer is the GPS elevation should be an option as a data field instead of just the barometer elevation on the CSX units. People complain that GPS elevations are often off, but in my experience the barometer calculated elevations are much much worse than GPS position calculated elevations. You can access the GPS position elevation on the satalite signal page through the menu, but you should be able to set it as a data field. For example, I can set the elevation on my Suunto or 76CSX to the local elevation and even with consistant weather, the elevation is rarely within 100' of what it should be in even short time spans such as 24 hours.

No one can argue with the reception of the new 60/76 X units, but I still feel there are a LOT of problems that I never saw on say my 76s unit or other garmin units I've owned. Aside from the color screen and reception my 76s unit was superior in almost every way. Now of course the most important useability feature is the reception and the X units are amazing in that respect, however, with that in mind there are a lot of issues. For example: A serious lack of display options, to me being able to change the color of a route on your map is a fundemental option that should be included in any color gps, you can do it with tracks, and you should be able to with routes. Also the night map background of dark blue instead of black makes reading text a lot harder than solid black would be. These cannot be hard things to add to the software. There should be multiple customizeable user pages, similar to the trip page, but more than just one, so you can taylor 2-3 pages for the info you need. Along with they need to bring back the ability to put smaller data fields in, it used to be you could get smaller data fields for more data on one page. Again not hard things to add to the software. The compass is useless, it is way way way too sensitive to tilt, their new feature of the "hold level" indicator is a joke, from one extreme to the other of getting the "hold level" warning I can make the compass swing 100 degrees. If you tilt the unit 1/4" you can get a 30 deg compass reading swing, without a bubble level that kind of inaccuracy is useless for navigation, sighting etc. I realize it's not a 3rd axis compass, but the 76s compass had no where near this magnitude of a problem with tilting. This will not get fixed because no doubt it is a hardware issue not a software issue. Elevation issues, when I track elevation on a plot sooner or later the barometer bottoms out to 54.xx Hpa, elevation crashes to ----- and it stays that way till the unit is restarted. Hard to say if this is software or hardware, it could be a power conservation function if the unit is not moving at a certain rate. And IMO probably the worst issue the fact that if the unit does loose satalite lock in say a tunnel, it cannot regain it without having the unit turned off and on again. This should be the #1 thing on the list to fix by far, having to cycle off/on your gps every time you loose a lock or go into a tunnel is like having to turn off and restart your car every time you want to go into reverse. This is probably a hardware issue, but maybe a software fix can be done. A soft reset to the satalite tracking proceedure in case of a loss of reception should fix the issue without having to power the unit off and on. Hopefully most of these issues can be resolved with firmware updates, and garmin IMO has been pretty fast on getting them out so far, however none of them have really addressed any of the serious issues. Adding the ability to put tracks on the memory card is great. I'm not bashing garmin, I've had good products from them before, and they are doing a good job on getting firmware updates out, but the new X series is pretty buggy if you ask me.

I've seen similar issues with my 76csx when plotting elevation with tracking on. After awhile usually 5-10 minutes the elevation will read ---- and the barometer measurement goes down to like 54.XX Hpa and it stays there till I turn the unit off and on. Then it's good for another 5-10 minutes.

One thing you can do is get one of the good moab trail maps like the east and west moab maps, and scan them in, reference them then trace the trails with like gps trackmaker software. I have not used it in the moab area but I have used it in other areas. It's not bad for accuracy, I'd say within 100' of the trail, enough to know how far you have to go, if you are going the right way etc. Usually that's about the best you can do with a real gps trail anyway of mountain biking length because most units don't allow enough track points to get all the twists and turns of the trail. I have a couple of them I have done, amasa back and porcupine, and honestly even having done it with a gps that 100' is not a bad error from year to year when I go back there. Also some of the 4x4 books have many of the trails with waypoints from spots on the trail, again it won't give you a perfect route right on the trail, but it's more than enough to let you know you are going the right way and how far out and back it is. I am axious to try it with my 76csx unit since it will allow tracks to go to the memory card I should be able to get a lot better trail accuracy, but we shall have to see.

It does appear to be related to the barometer. If I use the elevation plot with the auto calibration turned off, it appears to work fine. However the display still shows a barometer reading that is way way off. For the first few minutes the barometer reads fine, but after that it tanks, right now it's readin 54.75pa (it seems to always tank at this value and will not change unless the unit is turned off and on) while ambient pressure is reading 980pa.

Not sure if anyone has ran across this one but I was playing with the elevation plot today, for giggles to compare it to my suunto advisor. I notice that if I set the 76csx to plot elevation, and calibrate it to a known altitude, in a few minutes the barometer goes to 0.00 and the unit quits reading elevation. Ambient pressure is still registering. I'm not sure if this is a factor of the unit not being moving, so it's turnning the sensors off to conserve battery if the unit is not moving, or some other glitch, but I seem to remember my 76s would do this with no problems. I'm running another test with the auto calibration off to see if that may be the issue.

I could be wrong, as I have not specifically tested it, but I believe that the "x" units do not benefit from turning the compass off, as the older 60/76 units did in terms of battery life. It may be that garmin has gone to such a low powered compass that it's sacrificed accuracy and some tilt resistance. My 76s did gain a significant runtime from having the compass turned off, but it also performed much better. As you said though, even with a gps, I always have a compass in the field, but if they are going to put it in as a major feature that a new model is designed around it should work.

I would say your problem certainly sounds worse than others and my experience with my 76csx. I do know that everytime I turn my 76csx off and on and want to use the sight and go feature, I have to recalibrate to use the feature (it's grayed out otherwise). I'm sure they do that for accuracy and with this compass it seems to be a good idea. For example my 76csx does not normally force me to recalibrate if I just want to use the compass, but I've noticed that if it's off for even a couple days and I restart it, the compass may not force me to recalibrate but it's significantly off anyway. Case in point, I just booted it up, let it settle into a good lock, and checked the digital compass -vs- my brunton and it's off a good 25 degrees, even after calibration it was off 3-5 degrees. So while it may not force a calibration you certainly would not want to use it with that kind of error without recaibrating. So I would say that it's a good idea to recalibrate anytime you plan on using the unit for compass navigation. My 76s was no where near this bad, and frankly I've decided after having the 76csx unit for awhile that the compass is pretty much useless. It's way way too picky about the angle you hold it at, and it's constant recalibration needs make it unreliable at best, dangerous at worst. The "Hold Level" indicator they added is a joke as well, by tilting the unit front up and down between when the indicators come on either way I can still get a 90 degree swing in the heading measurement. The unit is WAY WAY too inaccurate and sensitive to tilt to every be useful, and at worst it's dangerous if someone were to rely on it. The reception of the "x" units is great, but they are seriously lacking in some other areas for sure. The compass accuracy for one, not being able to regain lock for another, and a general lack of display options. Certainly no one can argue with the reception, it's amazing hands down. However I do find myself wishing I had waited for the second generation of "x" units, but that's what happens when you buy the first generation of any product.

I would recommend the 101 model for the simple reason it has batteries you can change. Lion batteries last I heard are lasting somewhere between 500-750 charges. If you are going to be using it for training, that's what 2 years of use, it's a lot granted, but the other problem is if you are going to take it on say a week hiking trip to Colorado, unless you bring a 110v power source with you, it's only going to be useful for a day or two of hiking, then it's just dead weight. I simply cannot understand the idea of using a non-changeable propriertary battery in a unit that may have to go into the back country. At least use a combination, if they want a lion battery pack, fine, but set the battery compartment up to use AAA's or AA's or something the user can replace. I was pumped about the new Edge cycling units they had until I found out they were lion only, what good does a 12 hour battery life do me on a two week trip to utah....none. On top of that if I'm riding 250 days a year, that's two years before the battery is probably shot anyway. I realize it makes it easier for them to seal the units, and it makes a smaller lighter unit, and if all you are doing is using it for daily training it's fine, but for anything that needs to go more than a day without you being around a 110v power supply, get something with replaceable batteries.

No probably not while the unit is submerged. My thought was more that if the unit only complies to the IPX7 standard if you do not push the buttons, then it's hard to say what if any water resistance it has when using the buttons even when getting splashed or in the rain. So if the unit is wet a lot, say in the rain, or as it would be getting splashed a lot kayaking, and you are pressing the buttons if the buttons are not sealed, then you are at a much higher risk or getting water in the unit. Maybe not in letting water pour in the unit, but certainly water vapor, or water working it's way by the buttons over repeated use while wet. In repeated conditions or over long durations this probably could easily cause unit failure. Certianly though as you said, kayaking may expose the unit to water pressure levels and variations the IPX7 test does not duplicate. Honestly I think it's pretty sad that companies do not waterproof such units, be it gps's or watches, etc. in a way where buttons can be used, for exactly the above reasons, while a person probably does not want to be pressing buttons while upside down in a kayak on their gps, if the unit looses most if not all it's water resistance when buttons are used, then that becomes a major concern in rain/etc. using the unit when it's marketed as waterproof, which in itself is a myth. I would guess most consumers if they are told their GPS is waterproof to the IPX7 military standard "oohh that sounds very impressive" would expect that it conforms to that standard when actually using the unit, another case of buyer beware.

Well I hope they are listening, because the last two updates while certainly good, have not addressed some of the more serious issues. The not being able to regain lock after loosing it again is a serious issue. Hopefully this is not a hardware issue and can be addressed with an update. This should certainly be a prime concern. Savings tracks to the card is nice, it will really be nice for trying to map trails especially biking where you can cover a lot of twisty ground and the number of points was not nearly enough for longer trails, also for multiday hikes etc. That has been a sore spot in the past, so that is nice to see. However things that should be simple and are very important to readability/useability of the mapping units have not been addressed yet. Two that come to mind right off the bat, is the ability to change the color of the current route, you can change the color of your tracks but not routes and if you are in an urban setting especially with a lot of interestates around the red/maroon route color can be very confusing. Also they really need to change the night display map background to black, the dark blue they use now is very poor for contrast with features, pure black would be much better. It would make it much easier to read text under dark conditions. Hopefully it is in the works already, and I give them a lot of credit to have 2 firmware updates out this fast is impressive, now if they would just take care of the things users are repeatedly asking for and having problems with, instead of things we've never heard of they'd be set

Does the IPX7 standard allow you to push buttons while the units is wet/submerged? I know with a lot of "waterproof" watches and such even my suunto and polar stuff you can submerge it, even to that 30-100m but the manuals usually specifically state that you can't press any buttons while it's submerged. I think the IPX7 is only like 1m for 30 minutes or something, no idea if that includes using the unit. The reason of course is pressing the buttons breaks the seal to the interior of the unit. That could be why, while a lot of units have the IPX7 standard, if it's used a lot when it's wet, as in kayaking, the fatality rate is high, as water is getting in when the buttons are pressed. Personally I think that's a joke, especially with something like a GPS, cause obviously to use it you're going to have to press the buttons. It's hard to beat those cheap waterpoof bags for gps and cell phone units, they make the unit a little harder to use, but I guarantee a good quality dry bag for small electronics is way more waterproof than that IPX7 Standard.

I would guess it's either one of two things. Either garmin was in a hurry to get the memory card units out because they were loosing market share to companies that had that feature, or they are doing it so they already can have a new model to release in X months with little or no real R&D costs. It is interesting though that they released the 60/76 series with the chip but not the etrex units, you'd think if it was a based on being in a hurry or based on wanting to have new product later, they would have been consistant. It could be they plan on keeping the 60/76 around for awhile so they put the effort into that with the chip and memory card, and they are already working on something totally new for the etrex line so they just added the memory card capability to get some extra sales in the mean time. Either way though, you can bet they are going to sell a lot of etrex "x" units and they will sell just as many more when they update the chip. Most people probably don't care, in fact I've already seen sales people that don't know that the new etrex units don't have the new chips. Perhaps a third may be that they are working on a new etrex replacement model and didn't want to put the extra $ into getting the new chips into the units. Fourth...maybe there was some problem implimenting them in the etrex and they didn't want to put the money into fixing it. Fifth.....who knows only garmin and they ain't going to say I thought it might be size, but it's not, the new forerunner units use the new chips, and that's a wrist watch.

I had a chance to use the 76csx to navigate in minneapolis today crusing around to vertical endevors, REI and some other spots, and coming from the 76s I was impressed, first autorouting and the ability to re-route if you miss a turn is very very nice. Also just the way turns are indicated and listed and how the turn "list" will pop to the map when you get close to a turn. The color screen is much better to navigate with, but it pretty much demands you have the backlight on all the time, day or night, at least in the vehicle, but that's no biggie with a power cable. Just using batteries with the backlight on as high as it would go during the day chewed them up pretty quick. Mostly though I was impressed that the 76csx was able to hold a lock downtown in all the big buildings, normally this is where my 76s would loose signal all together. I think the only two minor issues I had was that if I was on a frontage road it would re-route me as if I was on the interstate next to the frontage road, and that sometimes if you had two quick turns in a row it would not update fast enough to get back to the next turn, but that's just a matter of looking another turn ahead. Overall though, very nice. I'm using metroguide 4.02 as well so I'm sure city select/navigator would be nice. One thing that IMO they must address though is you need to be able to change the route color, the maroon/magenta they use is way too hard to tell from the interstates and it can get confusing. A small issue for a firmware update though.