fox-and-the-hound
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Posts posted by fox-and-the-hound
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I agree that It would be nice to buy what I want and not what they want me to buy. I posted that in the GW forum and basically got the response that it was just too complicated. Funny because you can buy other items ala carte in their store. Not sure how they drew that line but it seems obvious that they're fishing for extra donations or you can't get certain items. Too bad. I'd have bought more but now I'll be buying less.
I wrote TPTB of GWX and was told: "Because of the complexity it would involve in putting together the registration packets, customized packages are not available. The GWX team worked very hard in putting together the various registration levels. Obviously there is no way to provide everyone with exactly what they want. It is possible that limited numbers of some of the items being offered will be available at the event on a first-come-first serve basis. But there is no guarantee. There are no plans to add items to the website store."
Okay, I can see that a custom package for everyone is slightly more complex, but certainly not harder. In fact it would actually be easier to simply have a storefront for preorder swag like most past megas have done. Instead of complex packages, people buy what they want and register. It's worked for a lot of other megas in the past so it's not like starting from scratch. What really gets me though is that the need for exact numbers of items to be ordered in advance (customized swag)benefits with a pre-order style event store. More money in hand early, more exact numbers for ordering goods (already paid for) and negligible risk for the committee. It's a win-win-win situation. Now instead of a family of 5 who don't need meal tickets buying 5 shirts by preorder, they'll just not order any swag-loaded registrations at all. That's a lot of $s down the potential tubes. Gotta wonder what's the mindset behind this stand and the fact that "the customer is always right" mentality has gone right out the window.
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Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies.
Not an accurate statement, as Tennessee Jed was commenting on a post of mine that included the information that "I don't destroy proxy coins, but I also won't move them." But I am not boiling about it.
This is just a discussion, and I am open to learning various points of view. But nothing I have read on this issue has yet produced anything that has caused me to alter my opinion that my personal choice to not move or release proxies in any way hurts the game or other geocachers.
Hmm... that's not how I read it at all. He notes your position on proxies in any opening line then ask for clarity on that statement.
He brings up a philosophical and ethical platform in the next paragraph and asks a question to the community at large. Notice he says "who should judge" rather than "who are you to judge".
He then follows with a closing paragraph stating his case on what he believes should be the basis of merit for pleasure and satisfaction. Of course then he follows it up with sarcasm which doesn't help his case
At any rate my comment is raised to redirect this conversation back on topic. Which of course is what would motivate someone to deliberately destroy someone else's property? It doesn't matter that anyone chooses not to move proxies and that is not the topic at hand. Let's get back to the topic at hand. You mentioned your stats and the rate of traveling vs. non-traveling with regards to which type. I have to say that is simply amazing to me! It's the first case I've ever heard of (probably because I hear so much more about coins in general, but still...) where TBs are disappearing faster. I'm really curious if there's a way to look at the GC database to see how many coins vs. TBs are missing currently by percentage of total activated. Now that would be an eye opener I'm sure.
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Pleasure and satisfaction should be based on helping another cacher out, not passing judgement because something doesn't please or satisfy you. This is not your world. But if I am wrong I will get on my knees, beg for forgiveness and pray for understanding of this type of thought.
Although this comment is not directed at me, I take offense to it. Who are you to "pass judgement" on us...those that do not move proxies? It should not matter how many trackables someone has released to form an opinion...and just because someone formed an opinion, does not mean they are "passing judgement" on someone else. I find this whole morale discussion of proxies ridiculous...it is only a trackable item...and as much as we love 'em, they are just a blip in the grand scheme of life. You (we) are entitled to place a proxy or not...you (we) are entitled to move a proxy (or other trackable) or not.
Before this boils over folks... the comment does not appear to be directed at passing judgment on people for not moving proxies. The topic here is about people who pass judgement on Proxies and choose to throw them away in their anger because they're displeased or unsatisfied. TJ is right, no one deserves to pass judgement without full knowledge of the facts and pleasure should be based on helping each other out. DD is right that these are just a blip in the grand scheme and people have a right to play how they like. However, playing by your own rules shouldn't impede on others their right to play the game their way, too. Everyone has a right to release trackables in their own way within the guidelines, everyone else has a right to choose to move or not move those trackables. NO ONE has a right to destroy someone else's property against their will.
In response to a previous comment, yes, the Geocoin has become an incredible piece of art and very desirable in nature. Sadly, the rate at which minting options, design skill and popularity increases it seems to be in direct proportion to the speed at which these coins disappear from the field. I have found it amusing that among my own released travelers and unactived dropped-in-a-cache-coins-as-a-nice-surprise coins that the coins that exhibited the most beauty and popularity uniformly disappeared fastest or were never recorded as being found while many of my less desirable coins traveled for a very long time or are still traveling today. If it were just a couple I wouldn't think it formed a pattern, but now that it's in the hundreds, I'm beginning to believe it's not coincidence.
edit 4 poor grammar (as usual)
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It's ironic that people would want so badly to find a real coin that they would throw away a proxy thus insuring to everyone if even a proxy isn't safe then a coin never would be. Food for thought.
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Nope, I've never heard of any restriction on an AE either. Just never heard of anyone receiving so many so I was thinking some producer is amazingly generous or something else entirely new is happening here and I'm like an overly-curious cat
I was just looking for who did the actual labor of the design. I design coins, too, so I like to know who else out there is designing.
If Mygeocoin.de produced the coin, I was wondering who (Sepp? Berta? someone else?) put together the design file to send to the mint. You said you had the idea, but did not produce the art? An artist/designer at Mygeocoin.de did, but you received Artist Editions for having the idea? Do you get to order your coins to your specs then?
It sounds like you are a partner in developing production of a geocoin. You also pay for your own version of the coin produced. That's fine and it's a lovely coin, I'm just wondering why it's defined as an "Artist Edition"?
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WOW!
I have often found that humans are a very interesting and hard to understand specie...even if I presumably am one myself. We are capable of great good...and great self-centeredness.
Why would someone throw away a proxy?
Because that person lacks compassion.
1) As you suggested, they wanted to steal the real coin (an act that obviously lacks compassion for the actual owner).
2) The proxy was lost by accident, but the cacher fails to have the compasion (or honor) to tell the truth about the matter.
3) They feel that the proxy isn't good enough for them to handle. The cacher elevates oneself to a position of judgement, a position without perspective other than the cacher's own. In this self-centered view, the cacher is failing to find compassion for, or even consider, the owner...a stranger who's situation in life is completely unknown to the proxy's finder.
In my short time as a cacher, I have handled trackables sent out by young boys in a scout troop, someone unemployed and homeless (living in his truck), someone grieving a personal tragedy, and some were sent out by people in far away places that do not fully understand American culture or 'standards.' I have handled some that I will never really know what the owner's situation may be.
Just because you may be in good health, with a good job, with enough money to send out out a $10-30 geocoin with emotional detachment...doesn't mean that everyone is in that same position.
All trackables should be handled with respect and compassion. So often these small item carry hopes and dreams.... To judge them would lack the greatest of human qualities, compassion.
Sorry if this rant has offended any.
I am often frustrated with my fellow humans.
Amen!
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Well because at 50 it's not really a small number restricted to the designer. Actually I've never heard of more than 20-25 being referred to as AE (doesn't mean there haven't been, but I just haven't seen it myself). At 50 it is actually a very large number and sounds more like a Limited Edition or maybe an XLE depending on how many were made. I know, I know, an AE isn't restricted to a number and an AE, LE or XLE could all be one and the same (we've been through that quite a number of times).
I'm curious as to who designed these vs. who is selling these and if they are one and the same. 50 coins as payment for a design is a fantastic commission so I'd be interested in learning more about both the designer and producer.
mygeocoin.de didn't necessarily design them, they produced them. Not to say Sepp or Berta couldn't have, but many producers have multiple artists.
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I've sent quite a few coins to Germany and only ever had problems with one. On the customs form it was marked as a "Coin" and so it was held for being currency, inspected, rewrapped and finally delivered long, LONG past the expected delivery time. Since then, I always mark the package contents as "Metal Game Token" (and list the value as the original selling price) which is more accurate a description and I've never had another go missing or overdue. I've heard others having similar experiences. I have a strong suspicion that this wording can have a huge influence on delivery. Think of it this way... if you work for the German postal system and you have an unknown coin of unknown value come in then you would need to investigate. Investigating would require figuring out what kind of coin it is, where it came from, what it's worth, what it's called and on and on. We love geocoins and know what they are and we have a hard enough time answering that stuff. I can't imagine how hard it would be for someone unfamiliar. I can imagine there's a whole pile of dead-mail geocoins in a rapidly weight-gaining bin over there
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50 AEs??? Who designed these?
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Now I had some time to take better pictures of the samples which show better the different layers. Here they are:
All coins will get a sequential number:
- 1-40 Antique Silver
- 41-80 Antique Copper
- 81-100 Antique Gold
Whoot! Looks good
I hope you're taking pictures with different background views -
Here, here! I agree on keeping it on you while you cache and dipping your mileage. It serves multiple purposes, too. 1) Allows you to hold on to a coin that is meaningful to you. 2) Allows others to enjoy it as well. 3) Allows you to keep track of everyone you meet on the trail by allowing them to Discover your coin so you have a permanent quick-reference-list for the future of the folks you've had the pleasure to cross paths with. Congratulations on your find and a big thank you to the generous cacher who left it for you to find!!
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Very nice! I particularly like the motto. Hope to see one of these up close soon!
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Very cool idea! I can't even imagine how hard this is going to be on minters so bully for you for tackling this idea! Can't wait to see the results
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These are becoming more and more common. Groundspeak has been very helpful in setting up basic guidelines for Proxy use...
Proxies are sometimes used as substitutes for traveling items that have been lost, destroyed or removed from caching permanently. A Proxie (facsimile)is used to replace the original Trackable item to continue on with the original mission. These Proxies can be made in any number of materials and must bear the Tracking Code of the original item.
Because Proxies are not original Trackables, there are special considerations that should be taken in their use.
1) All Proxies should state clearly on their Trackable Page that they are a Proxy and not the original. IE: Please use "PROXY: Signal CITO Geocoin" rather than "Signal CITO Geocoin"
2) If possible a picture of the Proxy should be posted instead of (or in addition to) any image of an original Trackable.
3) No more than one Proxy bearing an identical Tracking Code should be in use at any time.
4) Before a Proxy is placed in a cache, the owner should make every attempt to recover an original Trackable that has gone missing.
5) If an original trackable should reappear for any reason while a proxy is use then either the Trackable or the Proxy should be removed from the cache as quickly as possible. If you cannot remove one or the other item yourself, please enlist help from cachers in the area of your Trackable.
6) No more than one Trackable item bearing an identical Tracking Code should be in use at any time. IE: A Trackable and a Proxy bearing the same code should not both be in use simultaneously. Use of this kind is against Groundspeak guidelines, causes disruption of Tracking Mileage and is considered an abuse of the tracking code system. Continual use in this manner may result in the permanent deactivation of the Tracking Code.
To learn more about the many aspects of Trackable items please visit the Trackables page at www.Geocaching.com/track
The name of this coin should reflect that is a Proxy which should help make it more likely to travel and less likely to cause agnst with people hoping to find it.
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GeocoinClub just released the "Lucky You" Tinner's Rabbits club coin in March. It's a tag-carrying geocoin and trackable with a custom icon. Shadow's Friend has a beautiful personal geocoin with a really nice 3d rabbit, too.
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And as promised, here is the list of coins from the big box for trade. Most are non trackable, but certainly not all are as such.
Blazerfan
Joefrog
Wandering Dragon
Moun10bike V3
GeoNap
Team Super Genius
Nurse Dave
Ray & Rose
Shopper 2005
Team Shydog
Camp Explorer
Donbadadon
Facedances
Goblindust
AtlantaGal
2Dolphins
SquareT
Fab Five
2bugs
LoriDarlin
Kilted Cacher
Lightning Jeff
1markymark1
silvermarc
pdxmarathonman
3costcoguys
rubicon brothers
kirkland explorers
trez pirate
ckayaks
cav scout
mauison
cruiserdude
sgt. Stitches
traveling viking
cyclops
ladycacher
Cornerstone4
dhobby1 V2
team coychev
nicolo
hawk & bear
GoJaybee
Spencersb
vacman
hammerjane
grandpakim
vargseld
opticsboy
keving68
snoman
rock & crystal
fire elemental
dhobby1 V3
team sand dollar
kentucky girls
caching place
serial finders
team airik
shasties
sunshine gang
rupert2
joelmart
LFD bone V1
wildwood bob
kswader
treeplanter
eagles61
fox & hound
yemon yime v1 bronze
allanon
mauison v2
snobird & mountain goat
cool bronze
north dakota
ktag dog tag
swags xmas
maine
coin quest
emerald valley
geocoin addict
canine cachers v1
vigps marmot
NWPA
wisconsin coulee
swags margarita
hurricane katrina
idaho
GBES
RCGDS nuts
penn keystone
south africa
MIGO 2005
GWIII bronze TRADED
oregon
california 2004
penn 2004
missouri 2004
canada 2004
calgary
texas hiker
texas original
alaska 2005
joy of geocaching
greenman
gone caching 3
wash 2004
wash 2005
Utah 2005
kentucky 2005
california 2005
GOWT 2005
georgia non track
GGA 3
AGA 2004
rhode island quahog
OKIC
NC unnumbered
indiana non track
DFW bronze
DFW gold
panowege gold
panowege silver
santa cruz
conejo
buffalo wings silver
buffalo wings bronze
cache the fever bronze
cache the fever silver le
texas 2005
pirates of harriman 3
canine cachers v2
vampires mummies
gba earthquake
pdx oregon
minn 2005
CCGC Cito
CCGC
GCC FTF dance
GCC Red SA
GCC Ammo Can
GCC Benchmark
GCC old man winter
GCC rot13
Manhattan urban (3)
idaho 2006
south carolina
2005 Groundspeak volunteer
DNF black nickel
Sweet momma of trading lists!!! Are you bringing these to MWGB? I want that Goblindust (and a few others)!
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Hi all, as it seems my sig items have well received (got a good few trades for them, thanks guys) I have decided to get my sketch book out again and work a new set. I will be expanding on the traditional geocaching symbols theme. The first one is in the above photo. Not sure which symbols to include yet other than traditonal, multi and mystery.......open to suggestions
They will be available to trade. They can be personalized either with a Caching handle or an Event name and date. Actually as long as the writing fits on the back I can put whatever you would like
Comments welcome
I'd love to trade for one of these!! PM me please
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Hope to see you at MWGB! I'd love to trade for one of these if you're interested
Look for me at the GxProxy tent or volunteering on Weds/Thurs and I'll keep an eye out for you, too. -
I was talking to a fellow cacher yesterday, and the topic of geocoins came up. We hit upon a question neither of us is sure aboout the answer:
If you have a geocoin that you truly enjoy but don't want to risk it being lost in the wild, is it frowned upon to release a facsimile and not the original coin?
This all assumes said owner doesn't log "visits" or allow anybody else to log "discoveries."
Just posing a question, not looking to start any problems.
Steve
Is it frowned upon? Not nearly so much as you might think. Most are all for it, some are totally against it, but among the latter the biggest complaint seems to be poorly constructed proxies or proxies that are not listed as being such. Many who express a feeling of being cheated because the item's page misrepresents what is in the field have very strong opinions about it. The best thing to do is play your game your way, but be honest about what you're putting out there and most will be happy to help move your traveler along
There are many constructive and beautiful ways to make proxies and even a new company that makes them professionally as real, full-sized coins (you can find it through my signature if you're interested in learning more). Even using these means though, you should let cachers know in your traveler's description page what you have out traveling. Post a picture of your traveler with/in addition to your original so people will recognize it, too.
The folks at Groundspeak helped us (GxProxy) put together a simple how to list of what to do to ensure the success of a proxy traveler:
Proxies are Trackables acting as substitutes for the original Travelers that were approved for use by Groundspeak. Over time a Trackable item may become lost, destroyed or removed from caching permanently. When a Trackable is beyond retrieval a facsimile of the original Trackable will sometimes be created to continue on with the original mission. These Proxies can be made by any number of materials and bear the original Groundspeak Tracking Code.
Because Proxies are not original Trackables, there are special considerations that should be taken in their use.
1) All Proxies should state clearly on their Trackable Page that they are a Proxy and not the original. IE: Please use "Signal CITO Geocoin PROXY" rather than "Signal CITO Geocoin"
2) If possible a picture of the Proxy should be posted instead of (or in addition to) any image of an original Trackable.
3) No more than one Proxy bearing an identical Tracking Code should be in use at any time.
4) Before a Proxy is placed in a cache, the owner should make every attempt to recover an original Trackable that has gone missing.
5) If an original trackable should reappear for any reason while a proxy is use then either the Trackable or the Proxy should be removed from the cache as quickly as possible. If you can not remove one or the other item yourself, please enlist help from cachers in the area of your Trackable.
6) No more than one Trackable item bearing an identical Tracking Code should be in use at any time. IE: A Trackable and a Proxy bearing the same code should not both be in use simultaneously. Use of this kind is against Groundspeak guidelines, causes disruption of Tracking Mileage and is considered an abuse of the tracking code. Continual use in this manner may call for the permanent deactivation of the Tracking Code.
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Congratulations on a job well done! I'm really impressed with the idea even more than the execution. It's nice to see faith and science working together instead of duking it out for supremecy. Really looking forward to seeing this beauty in the flesh
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I know and I can understand what you´re talking about, but IMO the aspect of first of all being a part of the travel history of an item meets best with TBs. A coin is something different and should stay a coin. A plastic plate with the number of a coin engraved "degrades" to a Travelbug, IMO.
Shure, being part of the travelhistory is the certain purpose behind that all, but a Coin is something explicit to me, where the original item is inseprable connected to the fact of tackability. Everything else is a "plain" TB.
Again, what´s the sense in participating in the travelhistory of an Item, that obviously never left the hand of the owner and isn´t traveling? If one cares so much about his valuable property, why he not just buys a less valuable TB to enjoy the Travel aspect on that and keep his geocoins unactivated in his collection.
I don´t want the icon of a coin shown to everybody on my profile wich I sadly never have had in my hands.
Also if a coin gets lost. Why sending something else out to continue a travel some other item has made? I also wouldn´t want to have a taxidermy of my dog. It would be not even half the fun. And everybody knows, how expensive a dog is.
I slightly think this whole question is a question of philosopy. And as we all know, some philospys we´re debating 3000 jears about now.
I really don´t want to change the world here, I´m just talking about my opinion on things. Everybody shall do what he pleases to do, no doubt. I´m just asking, why some things are the way they are ...
You're just asking, but you don't seem to be actually listening. You're looking for support on your particular aspect. So I'll address your points one at a time...
1) "IMO the aspect of first of all being a part of the travel history of an item meets best with TBs. A coin is something different and should stay a coin. A plastic plate with the number of a coin engraved "degrades" to a Travelbug, IMO."
I geocoin, first and foremost does not need to be trackable. Many are not. Adding trackability makes a geocoin into a TB. Once that number is added it is no longer just a coin. It doesn't degrade a geocoin to have a tracking code. It upgrades a geocoin to TB status. It makes it more than just a chunk of metal. It makes it a traveler with a mission.
2) "a Coin is something explicit to me, where the original item is inseprable connected to the fact of tackability"
I think it would be a good experience for you to look into some of the threads on what constitutes a coin. Not because I think you're wrong, but because you're definitely looking along the same lines that many others have already beaten some good trails to. A coin, by it's very nature is a copy. It's irrefutable. It is not and never was "original". That's why the coin was invented. Man needed a simple way to many copies of one original. Every minted coin is a copy of a single true original. That doesn't make them worthless to you so why should a copy of a copy be worth any less? Sometimes copies of originals end up better than the original, but of course "better" is also perspective. Back to my point... if you vaporize said coin the trackability remains. Why? Because the trackable number is original and unique.
3) what´s the sense in participating in the travelhistory of an Item, that obviously never left the hand of the owner and isn´t traveling?
That's a wildy inaccurate assumption to make. How do you know that's the case? Do you check the history and talk to the owner of every single coin you ever discover or move? The sense in being part of a travel history is to take part in a Mission. The idea is the real value, not the polished chunk of tin attached to it. (that coming from someone who eats, sleeps and breathes geocoin creating!) Why hunt for a cache that's been replaced after being muggled or destroyed by animals/weather/etc.? It's not the original. Because the reason for the cache is what is unique just as the mission for the coin is.
4)I don´t want the icon of a coin shown to everybody on my profile wich I sadly never have had in my hands.
That's a simple fix. If you don't want to discover or move a copy, then don't. No icon, no problem. We each get to play our own way and it's a wonderful freedom to enjoy.
5) Also if a coin gets lost. Why sending something else out to continue a travel some other item has made?
See point 1. The mission. TBs come with a backup. Sadly, because of cost, coins do not. If people had the ability to just order another coin with their original trackable number I think it would happen. Would you feel the same if an original coin had a backup and was sent out to continue the mission after the first got lost? Why or why not?
You're asking why things the way they are. Here's why... because many of us see more than just an object. We see an ideal, an opportunity, an experience, a chance to be part of something bigger and a way to share ourselves with others. Afterall, that's what geocaching is about.
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Second, when it comes to Geocoins (not Travelbugs!) the excitement about it IMO is to hold a beatiful piece of art in hands. With all its weight, its shininess, its structure etc. It´s some sort of a great physical experience. And psychological, you found something precious! Heeey, well done!
... You may agree, that a laminated piece of paper can´t match this experience by any means. I´m talking about keeping VALUE in the game, and I don´t talk about money here. AGAIN, that´s about coins NOT TBs. If you more enjoy a tiny graphic shown in your account, well, ok. I can understand your feelings of excitement and the value of this particular experience. I've experienced it myself and know the joy
What I believe upsets many of us is the idea that this is the ONLY experience of value you should have with a trackable coin is to hold an original in hand. While the original is precious and has both a monetary and tactile value, that is actually secondary to it's purpose which is to TRAVEL. What you're effectively saying when you express the need to keep value in the game is that only a precious piece of metal has value and that the founding element of trackability is worthless. We set loose TBs, Coins and Proxies to travel. The gift is in giving people a chance to be a part of the traveling experience, not just the item itself. Saying there is no value in anything less than the original coin is akin to someone offering you a chance to take part in an incredible roadtrip of a lifetime and having you say, "Sorry, I wouldn't be caught dead in that junkheap because it's just not up to my personal standards of what is a good car".
If anything, all the copies, replacements and various fixes to missing coins should only make finding an original coin an even greater experience. 
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Noted FSM
I'm always surprised that so many times this field of questions pops back up without any consideration for the fact that all trackable geocoins are, in fact, just that... TRACKABLE! Trackables of any kind are set loose to be shared with others. These cost money. They take time to setup, release and maintain. These precious gifts are the most amazing aspect of geocaching next to the cache itself. Someone actually spends money out of their own pocket to share its benefit with us. To all of you who put out an original coin, TB, your backup copy of a TB, a copy-coin of any kinds and all the crazy-random-wonderful trackables for myself and my caching friends a hearty and heartfelt THANK YOU!
To everyone who would like to vulgarize, characterize, slander, degrade and belittle the people who have given us these wonderful gifts... you might want to take just a moment to consider the bigger picture. When someone gives you a gift the proper response is "Thank you". Not a degrading comment on how it's not the most perfect match for your expectations.
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It's called being cheap. If you don't want to lose the geocoin, then don't put it out.
So by that reasoning everyone who wants to set a traveler loose to travel actually WANTS to lose their trackable? How naive of me to think I've been setting lose geocoins to travel just so I could share them with others! 
Thank goodness realiable judgment from our unimously voted leader on the Geo-Trackables Ethics Committee has set me straight!
This is just a discussion, and I am open to learning various points of view. 
If anything, all the copies, replacements and various fixes to missing coins should only make finding an original coin an even greater experience. 
Looking for 2012 Geocoinfest Coin Designers
in Trackables
Posted
You might want to expand these caveats a bit.
500kb is extremely limited for a finished design (even just one side).
You might also want to include .pdf files since half the designers I know work in vector format (which is better for the mint production in the long run anyway).
Just my 2 cents