Ben0w

Sounds not like my game. It has been a good caching day when there is a smiley in my face and in those who went with me (even the dog's)... One per face is enough. Lame hides mostly don't do this.

... Allowing people to log caches that they have not qualified for is just bizarre. In ye olde days, qualifying to log a cache was finding it and signing the logbook. Qualifying for a challenge is something other (than geocaching at all?). But that leads away from the thread's topic.

You'll only need a reviewer if you want to change cache type (traditional, multi, puzzle) and/or listing or waypoint coordinates more than a certain amount (do not recall exactly, 0.1 miles?). All other works without reviewer. But they will check it anyway, if there are heavy changes and the "new" listing violates the guidelines. Then they may deactivate or even archive the listing. Another aspect is changing D/T rating and size. Some cachers need this for certain unofficial side games (i.e. "matrix caching"). They don't like it if there is a change after they had logged. Depends on your flameproof suit what you could risk there...(but that doesn't interest reviewers or Groundspeak much). If it's just a change of "tube" to "square" I see no problem.

If it was at a nice location you've had at least that...

Technically it's possible to adopt mystery caches, too.

Does it say something about world map or european map? Then most probably yes. I've seen the etrex20 some days ago in a shop and barely recall, that there was a world map included. There is a section in these forum, "Discussion by Country/Greece (Hellas) & Cyprus" you may check for country specific questions. Don't hesitate to ask in english. Be a bit prepared! If you know where you go: have a pocket query downloaded to your device or however you try to get to the cache descriptions in the country. Maybe check your internet data plan. Description language could be a problem, in Greece even to read the character set... In a foreign country you should be very defensive in caching: if feeling suspicious, stop. Could save you from troubles with land owners and authorities, you do not fully understand (and they don't understand you). Pay more attention to the location than to statistic points. But most important: just try it! I did it on Cyprus (all cache descriptions in english there) and found caching there a somewhat new experience, other than at home. Don't know exactly why, beside cutting my bare foot on a rock the second day, when finding a cache in the mediterrean sea. Have fun!

You could get it published, if you give your reviewer evidence, that there is no direct path between them and so they are not likely to be confused with each other.

Which is no proof for being legal. Good luck! That isn't true in general. "Book title protection" exists over here! "Fair use" doesn't exist in some jurisdictions, i.e. over here. And so on. Trademark and copyright laws are a minefield, totally dependent where you are and whom you make business with (or even make no business with). Could get messy and cost a lot of money (even for a simple cease and denial order you pay the attorney fees over here, which are beginning at ~1000 EURo level). Hence my reference to a "local lawyer". As a rule of thumb: textual references in a neutral or positive way probably will be OK, but simply don't embed logos and pictures, unless you have clear written permission. Don't think you fly under the radar. The longer you do, the more it will cost... If in doubt, ask a lawyer. I gave up the idea to have a funny scientific multi cache based on an old comic book series. You'd have to solve several crazy experiments at each stage, involving physics, mechanics, hydraulics and so on to obtain the coordinates of the next stage. However, it wasn't half the fun without the comic book context and without corresponding paintings and the logo. No way to get that permission, though. A friend of mine has to learn it the hard way having named his rock band "Red Bull (Energy Rock!)" and using the logo of the well known energy drink; he even had oral permission by the regional representant thinking it would be a cool promotional idea, but international RB headquarters wasn't amused (they were fair and settled it without fees). And the band is even locally mostly unknown, you'll need coordinates to find their gigs.

No. The cache as a whole is archived and therefore not in the game anymore, at least on geocaching.com. Logging it at this listing service to just get a smiley and a find point is just lame. There may be a reason for it being archived: maybe some security official doesn't want people stand on the street just to get on the webcam? And maybe now the official is angry about the owner not following his advice to stop people doing the cache and bans all other geocaching in his area? Sure, I don't know the situation...but it's archived on this listing service, which is a pretty clear statement. Anyway, knowing that you log archived caches just for the smiley, I won't be impressed by your find count from now on. Never mind, I never really was...

Nope, it's still not OK. You have a contract with a company, that don't want you to bury geocaches (Groundspeak's terms of use, you click to "agree with", when publishing a geocache listing). So, you break at least that contract. Thus, Groundspeak may delete your listing from their server anytime. So easy. There is even a reason for this: the danger to have geocaching as a whole in a bad light, when other land owners and authorities may have the impression, that geocaches are bad for their property (because buried or nailed to trees) and they won't have that on their grounds. So they deny geocaches at all. This has already happened and affects the freedom of geocachers worldwide. Thank you for affecting my geocaching habit...NOT. Plus I really can't see why? There is exactly no reason to bury a cache. It makes it no bit more creative or better, instead it is simply lazy, since the owner takes the easy way instead of finding a more creative hide within the guidelines and terms of use. Nuff' said.

Your arguments are compelling. But consider: For every rule there is an exception. It's true in physics, math and life. Should have said this to my physics and math professors... Talking about physics & maths: no, there are not much exceptions in basic physics and math rules. Talking about life: I did some real cool and still lasting things just by really knowing and using existing rules instead of vaguely arguing around them. You should really differ between things that are acceptable for the general public (if virtual caches exist or not is totally out of interest for all others) and things that having potential to shine a bad light on our hobby, thus getting land owners and authorities involved. There already are area bans in Germany, not under control of Groundspeak rules/guidelines or the geocaching community any more. Just because of some a**holes thinking they could stretch or circumvent the basic rules. Now all are affected. Unfortunately, reviewers and Groundspeak often don't react or far too late even when they're notified of possible problems until it's to late. BTDT. But it's the fault of the cache owner who tried to circumvent the rules (and probably lied in the review process) in the first place. I'm suggesting: • not all should be done because it's doable (kind of geocaching ethics) • burying is not creative • it shows more creativity to build an astonishing, surprising and excellent cache within the present guidelines than just digging it into the ground • yes, geocachers should adapt, be creative, come out with new, surprising ideas. Yet, they bring out lame lamp post and guard rail boxes or buried tubes, just because they see it done elsewhere. • the opposite of "creatively against the rules" is not "ugly guardrail cache", it's "creatively within the rules" • Favourite Points don't tell much about the quality of the cache, much more about the actual state of mind of the finders (anyway, from a QM viewpoint, quality mostly is measured by rules not by likes) • not damaging otherone's property (i.e. by digging a container into their ground) just doesn't need a geocaching rule, it should already be included in common sense and personal integrity • expanding/stretching/leaving the basic rules may lead to more and stricter rules, in escalation from the geocaching listing site to land owners right-of-way and authorities. I don't want this to happen (unfortunately, it already does). The examples given in the recent postings just validate the point of "monkey see, monkey do". I'd suggest to stop this by geocachers ("needs archived") before beeing stopped by others, when they see our own rules not working. Regarding U.S. vs. Europe: especially in Europe the European Parliament is known to hop on anything of slightest interest just to have something to overregulate...so Belgium isn't just far away from my caching area, it could get pretty near soon if EU regulations about "GPS gameplay" come into effect. We'll see in 10-20 years...

If there had to be dug or punching a hole in the ground when placing the cache, it's considered buried. As others may have explained: land owners thinking a geocache is a buried "treasure" are less likely to accept geocaching on their ground. We have a problem here with metal detecting (another stupid outdoor hobby), where digging is involved. Land owners are not happy with that. Would be bad if they mix it up with geocaching. It's a very fine line. Does being confronted with a dung fork in Germany qualify? Already happened in Germany where a piece of geoart lead to a general ban of geocaching on city grounds, just bevause it looked impressive (to city authorities in a negative way) on the map. So again, not only in U.S. of A. It's already near you. And I don't think a general german farmer is mentally far away from a general belgian farmer or a general U.S. farmer as it comes to his property...

Goto http://www.geocaching.com/track/default.aspx and enter the code in the first input field (just under those three boxes with info). Be sure to enter the correct code (possibly reading/typing mishaps include the letters/numbers 0/O/D, B/8, l/I, 1/7, 7/Z, U/V, ...). Then you get to the trackable's listing. There, in the upper right menu you choose the "Found a trackable? Log it!" link. Choose wisely (following menu items may appear, depending on the trackable's current status): • "discover" = if you've just seen it (not in your posession) • "retrieve" = take it out of a cache • "drop" = place it in a cache (be sure to give the correct code) • "visit" = drop & retrieve at once • "grab" = get it from another cacher or place (latter is useful when it's not logged in the correct cache) • "write note" = leave a note (you won't need the trackable code then) • "mark it missing" = if you're the owner of a cache the trackable is assigned to but it's not in there. Please "discover" it only if you have seen it personally. Don't just copy codes from a picture or a list shown/given to you. Please wait a bit (~1 week) if you want to log a trackable online and it's in your posession but not yet correctly logged by the previous holder (so i.e. "retrieve" is not in the menu list above). Give him/her time to log properly. Thank you!

Ha, jetzt trudeln auch bei mir gerade Discover-Mails von Coins ein, die ich nur 3-4 Mal auf lokalen Events dabei hatte und dort anderen gezeigt habe, persönlich, nicht als Liste. Die liegen aber hier bei mir zu Hause und waren nie auf dem Giga in Mainz, wo der "Discoverer" gemeint hat, sie gesehen zu haben. Mal sehen, was ich damit mache. NB: auf dem letzten Event kam doch tatsächlich die Frage, warum ich keine Liste dabei hätte, es wäre zu mühsam, das alles abzulesen. Leute gibt's...

Just ridicolous... I enjoy my own numbers (since I know how they were archieved) and am in no way impressed just by someone other's find count (since I don't know how this was collected). I might be impressed by the background story. This even may include a story around doing a real power trail. Numbers alone aren't impressive, the stories behind them are! (BTW, same is true about favourite points - you simply don't know why they are given unless told)

Your local lawyer may tell otherwise (as they always do...), but: • Usually, names of tv shows may be trademarked, but just for specific setting, i.e. "TV Show" or "Book Title". So the use in geocaching usually should be free. However, be careful when the trademark stretches to "Games"... • Don't use copyrighted material from the tv show in your cache listing. This may include logos, texts and pictures, even screenshots from a tv. • If you present the show or the channel/company or some person associated with it in a bad light, this could make you target of unwelcomed lawyer attention. • The use of commercial website links and company names may fall under the "No agenda" and/or "No business advertising" guidelines of Groundspeak (haven't a reference at hand, but those are somewhere in there). This has to be avoided or discussed with a reviewer or Groundspeak. If it's just a cache with a positive reference to the tv show, I see no problems in naming it after this show. Please make sure the cache is worth it, i.e. don't put cache name or theme over an interesting location and a durable container as large as possible. Thank you!

Trying to creatively circumvent guidelines is just proof of being not creative enough to hide cool guideline conform geocaches. Real creativity is to combine a nice & somewhat interesting location with a box that just fits there, as large as possible to carry swag (optional) and trackables (not so optional). That's not essy! Caching experience shows, that "clever hiding tricks" (including tricky mystery puzzles) often cover a lame location and/or a lame container. BTW: the WiFi multi station already has bee done several times. I recall caches (from forum stories, not by own experience) to give out the next stations coordinates by means of the WiFi network name, so you just had to scan the area, not really logging in. However, even that excludes cachers without the needed equipment, if that is what you want. A final having virtual logbook was tried before, too. I know of an USB stick somewhere. Having to access a website is the same thing as sticking an unknown device into the computer: a potential danger. I most probably wouldn't want to do it, same with sticking my hand in potentially dangerous areas. Plus, a "website only logbook" cache probably would miss the space for trackables. We already have enough micros and nanos, no thanks... Call me old fashioned, but I'm just glad every time I see a decent hide, not trying to be outstanding "creative", but just a plain good container at a cool place (location, location, location!) with an interesting listing under constant maintenance watch from the owner. Keep it straight & simple. But if you want to take part in the run for Favorite Points (which really do NOT represent good caching habits) or "creative cache" marketing campaigns (see my first statement above), then take your idea to your local reviewer. That's the entity to present your interpretation of the guidelines for a specific situation. Please be honest in all aspects, to not produce another kind of evidence for land managers to shut the game down. Unfortunately such caches exists (you mentioned examples) and it has been done. And no, even if there is approvement of the land manager, it doesn't wipe the guidelines out. Giving bad examples for others is just the next step to implement more guidelines, be it by Groundspeak, land owners or authorities. Geocaching used to be a playable simple outdoor game, with a minimal set of rules. Trying to stretch them just made things a bit more complicate. I fear, this will escalate further on.

Vielleicht diejenigen, die das Listing auf einer anderen Listingplattform lesen und noch finden wollen? Geocaching.com ist nicht die einzige Cache-Datenbank...da würde ich also vorsichtig sein. Archived auf gc.com heisst ja nicht, dass der Cache nicht immer noch Teil des Spiels ist. Nur eben nicht mehr auf gc.com... Aber: so wie ich das in diesem speziellen Fall allerdings aus der Ferne beurteile, hast Du dem Hobby einen guten Dienst geleistet...

You may as well keep it, as the cache was archived back in 2012. It still could be listed on another geocaching listing service, there are more than just geocaching.com (which just happens to be the market leader). It even could be a private game piece, not listed anywhere in public. Theoretically... Is there something on it that identifies it? A GC-code would specify it as a geocaching.com-listed (and if matching, the archived one). Another code would be a pointer to another listing service. If no identifier is given and it's a simple lamp post cache and the string of logs in the book ends around 2012 then most probably it isn't listed anywhere else and the owner just hasn't retrieved it after archiving and thus it's just geo-litter any responsible cacher should take care of and remove.

OK, eine Mail oder eine persönliche Ansprache kann gerne auch noch drin sein. Muss aber nicht, ich empfinde das jedenfalls nicht als unhöflich, wenn immerhin 1 Woche Zeit gelassen wird. Bei Trackables fühle ich mich nämlich mehr dem Eigentümer verpflichtet als dem virtuellen Noch-Besitzer, der das Ding ja tatsächlich gar nicht mehr hat. Wenn er's innerhalb einer Woche nicht auf die Reihe bekommt, wann dann? Und es passiert ihm ja mit dem Grabbing nichts: es wird ihm nichts wirklich weggenommen (er hat's ja schon länger nicht mehr) und loggen kann er's auch so (sofern er die Trackingnummer hat). Das finde ich auch nicht angemessen. Andererseits hast Du ja dabei auch nichts verloren, Du kannst ja sowohl den Cache als auch den TB jederzeit loggen (sofern Du den Trackingcode noch hast). Zusammengefasst: Ich denke, dass man Trackables aus Anstand gegenüber dem Eigentümer umgehend nach der Tour (~0-2 Tage?) loggen sollte. Als Trackablefinder kann man dem Vorfinder noch ein paar Tage (~1 Woche?) zur Sicherheit drauflegen - aber irgendwann ist auch da Schluß. (Bitte jetzt nicht auf Handycachern rumhacken, das eine hat mit dem anderen nichts direktes zu tun.)

Looks like a totally new game. Find a marketing strategy and found a company. Make it big, sell it and get rich. Then you'll have time to get back to the simple game of geocaching.

Technically anyone with an account on geocaching.com and knowing the GC number can log a "needs archived" (NA) entry, which will alert a reviewer to look into things (so, the "NA" expands more to "needs (reviewer) attention"). Be sure to add some good reasons, like "11 DNF in a row, owner not responding, seems inactive since 2014". Be very sure to don't mix up things: a group of 11 cachers didn't find the box and posted a DNF each? That's more or less just worth 1 DNF. Owner logging other caches every day? That's not an inactive owner just one using a smartphone app which isn't registered as log in. And so on... Those possible misunderstandings are the reason why it is considered fair play to first log an "needs maintenance" (NM) before a NA. This will alert the cache owner without involving a reviewer. But, technically, it's not needed. Over here such a NA then will lead to temporary deactivation by a reviewer for ~4 weeks, including an appeal to the cache owner to get things checked or fixed. After ~4 weeks and still no owner reaction it may get archived by the reviewer. Even after this the cache owner has the possibility to get the cache re-activated, so no real harm is done if he/she responds in a certain time frame and is willing to care for the cache. Things may vary at your location, if in doubt, ask a local reviewer.

Just my 2 or 4 cents: TCM is not geocaching in my book. A lackey doing things does not approve doing things. The "official" basic rules and guidelines apply, not lackeys deeds (as long as that does not involve making rules and guidelines). Roman!, you may judge Moun10Bike for his deeds, but you may not constitute any rule from these deeds. Even if it were one of the founders or anyone else, it still would be just a bad example. Nothing else, no good representation of the company they work for, nor for the community. But still it doesn't encourage an intelligent soul to copy said bad behaviour. Including jumping from brides. If you start doing it only because you see someone else doing it, that's just stupid and it still is bad behaviour. But somehow I feel like I explain basic common sense, social behaviour and independent thinking to my 8 y/o kid...(except that thing with the bride). So, the thread's original intention simply isn't logical. Fascinating.

The logging habit often is the only way to judge. People seem to forget the effect their actions (here: online logs) have on others.

No, it isn't. Just for the record: mostly I cache with my iPhone, occasionally I hunt for FTF (and don't always succeed - which often makes the better story), write long log entries ON MY SMARTPHONE (for the last STF I needed two "write notes" and one "found it" to circumvent the 4000 character restriction for logs), usually I log after my caching day/weekend from home, and my numbers are somewhere near 100 caches per year (only). Still I like this game. This discussion is about fast logging style vs. delayed logging, especially in FTF hunting with variable definitions for "fast", "delayed" and "seriosity of FTF hunting". Please don't mix that with a discussion about "smartphones", "GPS receivers" and/or "generation/age", that just isn't valid. If you think otherwise, please proof (but consider my example above as contra proof). Thank you.