Grinch & Gremlin

If you hadn't said you also wanted to use it for road navigation, I'd have said the Vista HCx. For hiking, the smaller size and nice one-handed button layout is really nice. But the 60CSx has a few features that make it nicer for auto navigation. Both screens are really too small for comfortable car use, but the 60CSx is still a bit bigger and you can get by. In addition, the front layout of the 60CSx buttons (and having more buttons) make it easier to use while mounted in a car. Both are very sensitive and will give you a reliable signal in marginal conditions. I don't think you can go wrong with either of these, but only you really have an idea how much time you'd spend using it for road versus trail. On the software, for auto navigation, City Navigator is really a must. If you're planning to cache mostly near roads, it's probably enough. But if you're planning to do caches that you must hike to, then you'll probably want Topo 2008 as well.

Amazon is where I bought mine too. Free shipping, but I got lucky and they shipped right away and it only took three days to arrive.

Thanks, eaparks! I can't find it on their web sites, but I'll stop by one or both in town and see if they carry it locally. It's probably better bought locally anyway so I can take along the 60CSx and be the one I find works. Cheers!

I really hate the see-through cases for many of the reasons already discussed in here. What I use is the Garmin holster for the eTrex line. It's basically a fully protecting case that clips on the belt, but you pull the unit out to use it. It's quick and easy to use, protects the unit, but leaves the unit free to access all the controls when you're using it. It may not be right for everyone, but I love it. Wish I could find a counterpart for my 60CSx Here's a link to it on Amazon. Edit: I just followed my own link to test it and I noticed a single review where the user says it doesn't fit the Cx versions of the eTrex line. Since I've been using it with a Vista C, I can't speak to that of my own experience yet. However, I have in shipping now a new Vista HCx and another holster so I'll know in a couple of days. I'll post the result here.

The basemaps do not give you much detail to work it, but whether they will do, I think, depends on the types of caches you'll do. If you're planning to stick to urban or near-the-road caches, then you can use the Nuvi to get you close and then the Venture can just be an arrow pointing a bearing and distance. However, if you do the kinds of caches that I like -- long hikes in national forests -- then the Topo 2008 maps are extremely useful. Whether or not they show the trail you're hiking, they give you other features that help you navigate in the woods and I consider it essential for our hiking and caching. 24 MB of memory is sufficient if you tend to cache in the same general area most of the time. I still use a Vista C with 24 MB and it can hold a decent area around me. I only have to reload new maps if I take it on a trip. I also use a 60CSx and yes, it's nice to be able to load half the country in at once, but it's not like the 24 MB Vista was ever a problem. It's just an issue of planning and convenience.

Thanks, CenTexDodger! It turned out to be easier than all that, but it was your suggestion that got me back on the right path. I did redownload all the maps I had peviously installed to the 60CSx and made sure that check box was checked. I'm pretty sure it was before too , but I wanted to be sure. Then I tried viewing the route again and again it was a straight line. But since I knew it should work and that it wasn't the maps, that gave me some options for finding the problem. In the end, it turned to that I was just assuming something that wasn't true. I assumed that, if I downloaded a route and asked the GPSr to show me the route on the map, that it would. It doesn't; it just shows me the straight line between the start and finish waypoints. However, if I actually tell it to navigate the route, then it renders it and displays it correctly. I wish it did both, but I can work with this. Anyway, problem solved. Thanks for all the help!

Actually, this could be good for Garmin in the long run. If the articles are right that Nokia's interest in Navteq is in providing mobile navigation through their mobile phones for a small fee per transaction, then there is one thing they will have to do, and that is keep the maps very up-to-date. It's one thing if my Garmin GPSr doesn't know about a particular road. We only bought it once and that money is gone. As long as we see the total value of the device is greater than what we paid, we live with the times it's wrong. But what if you were paying money for each time you navigate (which is what the article says Nokia wants to do with mobile phones)? Then, if it's wrong, you'll want your money back for that particular navigation. Never mind that it's not much money; you'll want it back just on principle. Just the processing of customer claims would cost many times the charge in question so poor maps could get expensive. Nokia will be under great pressure to support Navteq in keeping current map data available and that's a good thing for all of us. One more thing. It's not in Nokia's best interest to alienate Garmin as a customer. They paid a very high price for Navteq and they need the revenue they received from companies like Garmin to recover some of their investment. They would surely like to charge Garmin as much as they can get away with (as did Navteq themselves), but they also know they'd be the ultimate losers to force Garmin to go elsewhere for map data. I really don't think this is going to be a problem at all.

Wow, great things to think about. Thanks for all the suggestions. I'll answer some of the questions different people have asked, though not in the order asked because it makes sense to clear up some of my own confusion. 1) My apologies to those with Topo 2008, it turns out that it is indeed the National Parks maps that are doing that. I bought both at the same time and was confused about which one I was in when this happened. I just tried it in Topo 2008 and got a straight line, but when I flip over to the National Parks map, it gives my a route that follows the trail. 2) Fratermus. You're right, it's only the two waypoints. I just assumed if it was going to create a route, it would create however many points it needed to actually make the route. It MUST do that internally to even draw the route. But at least I understand what's happening. When I transfer the route, it's only transfering the two waypoints and the GPSr apparently lacks the ability to route along the trail. It makes me wonder what the point of that feature is then, since few of us plan to carry our computers out on the hike with us. If a route we've created in Mapsource won't transfer into the GPSr, then what good is it? 3) Breaks911. Great idea, that's all I want too... just a line to follow to be sure that I'm staying on the trail that I planned. I don't want or need the waypoints or the beeps tellings me I've just reached a new one. I'll try your suggestion and see if I can get that route converted into a track. 4) CenTexDodger. When I transfer the routes to the GPSr, I don't get any sort of option to 'include route calculation '. I just hit the 'Send to Device' icon and it has four options... maps, waypoints, routes and tracks. I also looked in the preferences to see if I could find what you mentioned, but didn't see anything like that. Can you give me a little more information on where that checkbox is? It sure sounds like it's the answer to my problem if I can find it. Thanks!

That's a good workaround. Thanks! I can't imagine why Garmin wouldn't build that in (seems like it would be trivial to program), but this will get me by.

Since I'm already posting a few questions here today, I thought I'd toss this one out too. One of the things that's irritating about Mapsource is that I don't see a way to move a single waypoint (or a few selected waypoints) between Mapsource and the GSPr. When I upload or download, I only seem to have the option to move all waypoints in the sending device to the receiving device. It seems obvious to me that we would all want to move single waypoints sometimes, so I'm wondering if I've been missing something. Does anyone know if you can move a single waypoint between Mapsource and the GSPr? Thanks!

One of the things that convinced me to upgrade my US Topo maps to US Topo 2008 was the inclusion of elevation data in the new maps. It's nice to be able to view an elevation profile on my GPSr when out hiking, or before I go in Mapsource itself. (The Mapsource elevation profiles aren't as good as those in NG Topo!, but they're still useful.) Anyway, here's the problem and I'm wondering if anyone knows of a workaround. I have many, many hundreds of waypoints already stored in the old Topo map files and/or in my GPSr units themselves, but few of these includes elevation data. If I choose a new waypoint in Topo 2008, then it automatically stores the elevation data, but old waypoints just don't do so. So far, the only way I've found to get the elevation data in an existing waypoint is to delete the old waypoint and create the new one manually. But with so many to do, that really seems like the long way around. I've also tried to trick it my opening the waypoints in Topo 2008, but that doesn't work. I can edit the properties and manually type in the elevation, but then I have to create a waypoint to get the elevation from, so that's no faster. Anyway, if anyone know of a way to take a set of existing waypoints and get elevation data pulled from the map and inserted, I'd sure appreciaite knowing how. Thanks!

I recently bought the new US Topo 2008 and one thing it does nicely in MapSource is that it follows trails like they were roads when you create a new route. That is, if I click the beginning of a trail with the route tool, then click the end of the trail, the route follows the lines of the trail rather than drawing a single straight line between the two points. This is really helpful since it saves me clicking on 20 or 30 points along a trail to create a route. That all sounds great, however, when I download such a route into my 60CSx, the route that shows up on the GPSr is no longer the route following the trail. It reverts to a straight line between the beginning and ending points. Since I don't carry my computer with me when I hike, that's a real disappointment... even so that I really can't believe they designed it that way on purpose and I'm wonder if I'm doing something wrong. Has anyone ever successfully used such a route on their Garmin handheld GPSr and, if so, does anyone have any idea what I'm doing wrong so that it doesn't maintain the route that shows in Mapsource? Thanks!

Yes it does...I just did a 35 mile backpacking trip in Yellowstone. If left on, the unit recorded the tracks very, very well. However, the odometer recorded just a fraction of our actual mileage. You guys are just debating semantics. Smac99, Alphawolf just means that the tracks are recorded properly internally so when you get home you can upload them into your computer and use them. He's agreeing that the odometer reading (what you mean by 'tracks') doesn't show the correct distance. So you can't tell, while hiking, how far you've hiked. But when you get home, you can move the tracks to your computer and find out then. Real useful, eh? In fact, this is what makes it so absurd that Garmin hasn't done anything about it. If the tracks are being laid down correctly in the track log, then clearly the device 'knows' that it's moving. So if it knows that it's moving, it should be a simple adjustment to the firmware to pass that information along correctly to the trip computer screen. One last thing. The error only occurs in track by distance mode. It works correctly if you use track by time so that's a workaround until they get it fixed.

Either one would be an excellent choice, so you can at least relax in that you can't really make a mistake. Things I would consider... Reasons to choose the HCx: Smaller size is really nice for hiking. It's a proven form factor that carries and handles well. Screen is brighter than 60CSx. Sensitivity is virtually identical to 60CSx. Once learned, the keys are easier to use while holding one-handed. Reasons to choose the 60CSx: HCx firmware problems with odometer are not yet fixed and it is a major problem since it affects your ability to know how far you've traveled. You can't really know that the problem will ever be fixed (though we all hope so). Patch antenna on HCx is strongly directional and needs to be held screen up. Helix antenna on 60CSx is much less directional and will maintain a lock in almost any position (such as hanging upside down around your neck or tossed in a pack). 60CSx buttons are easier to use initially because they're labeled and there are more of them. If you only use occasionally, you won't have to remember which button does what. For me, the firmware problem is the critical issue. I would choose the Vista HCx if it didn't have that problem or if I expected it to be resolved quickly. (Garmin has known about it since July and it's still not fixed.) The small size is just better for hiking if you're not giving anything up for it in sensitivity. But if I thought they weren't going to get that odometer issue fixed, I'd rather have the 60CSx and its performance is excellent. For the record, I have the original Vista C and the 60CSx. I have been waiting for Garmin to fix the HCx before buying it.

Well, this isn't something you would like to happen, but it won't affect your ability to find a cache. The GPSr will still show you where you are and lead you to the coordinates you've entered. Given the excellent sensitivity of this new chip, it will do those things very well. What it does mean is that, if you want to know how far you've walked, you won't know based on what is on your GPSr screen, because it will not count any distance during which you moved at a pace less than 2.2 mph. This could matter if you're comparing your GPSr readings to your paper map where it would be nice to know that you've traveled 2 miles so you can pinpoint where on the paper map you are. Or, if you're trying to decide whether to go farther that day, and you use the trip page to see how far you've already come in a particular length of time, you'll not have an accurate reading to help you figure out how long the next leg will take. So, overall, it IS a serious issue, one that Garmin has known about since the model was released and one they should have already fixed. But firmware updates have come and gone without a solution so far. I've been waiting to buy this model until they fixed it, but I'm not sure when or if that's going to happen. Of course it's easy for me to wait because I have both a Vista C and a 60CSx to use so I'm not without resources while I wait. If I were in your shoes, I probably wouldn't wait to buy since you're missing out on a great deal of fun in the meantime. I would consider both the 60CSx and the Vista HCx. The two are virtually the same in sensitivity (despite using different chips). The 60CSx is easier to use (more buttons and labeled with words), it is larger and has the antenna sticking up. The Vista is smaller and more pocketable, but has these issues (which are probably temporary, but you can't know for sure). Personally, I think you should just pull the trigger and choose one because they're both excellent units and the most important thing is to get out there and find those caches.

We'll be going past Shengwedzi in June (not staying there, but driving past around 16-17 June) and will get it if we can. If we do get it, would you like it put in another cache nearby or taken back to the US and placed here? If someone else gets it in the meantime, would you please post a note to this thread so we don't look for it if it's already gone?

Also a thought for all of you cachers with dogs. If they're going to run offlead, please be sure you spend the time first to teach them a completely reliable recall. All too many dogs are lost in the woods because they go off running or chasing a critter. With some breeds, like my Sheltie, it's easy because they're bred to be focussed on their owners. If they get out of sight, they'll tend to come back looking for you. But for others, like Irish Setters, the urge to run is really strong and they sometimes forget to look back until miles and miles have gone by. In either case, though, it's important to teach it well so that it works under any circumstances. Here's a web site with an excellent method for teaching a reliable recall. For the wide outdoors, you might want to substitute some type of whistle in place of (or in addition to) your voice as the cue so they can hear it from a long distance. Teaching a Reliable Recall

I have to agree with you on all points! My sheltie loves going for walks in the woods (whether caching or not), but does have a bit of the same trouble as yours. Still, he's a fantastic companion and it's well worth the few minutes it takes to brush him out afterward.