embra
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Posts posted by embra
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One trouble with making EPE comparisons is that it's not clear exactly what they mean. Sure, they are Estimates of Position Error. But what are the methods of doing the estimation and what are the probabilities that your true position is within the circle defined by the radius of the EPE? 95%? 90%? 99%? It would seem that the EPE for a given GPS device offers meaningful comparisons to devices of the same model, but beyond that it's hard to know what contributes to the differences we see.
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The more I learn about how GPS works, the more I am amazed.
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I'll take a poke at it here...are you trying to delete using TopoNA9 Sync? One cannot delete waypoint/cache files on the GPS alone. In the Sync dialog you need to locate the file in the rightmost sync window and X out the file you want to delete.
Heck and all, I'm not able to upload to PhotoBucket to embed a screenshot. You can see it on Flickr here:
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IMO the car routing capabilities of the PN-40 are sufficient for most incidental use, although I much prefer the voice directions and larger screen of my Nuvi 255w. For doing a geocache run, the convenience of just using the PN-40 tips the scales in that direction.
For the questions you pose, I don't think there are any unpleasant surprises with the PN-40. It can take a while to get the knack of the finer points (e.g., downloading and creating map files for the GPS of the $30 specialized imagery subscription), but the basic functions are relatively straight-forward. The included topo data is only 1:100K...but it covers all of North America for the purchase price of the package.
DeLorme allows a 30 day return period if unsatisfied.
Edit: I said all of North America; to be clear, that's Canada, US, and Mexico. No Central America coverage as of yet.
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There's a pretty good wiki for the PN-40 here. Take a look at the steps under the Map Library Subscription section. The instructions are for Topo7, but they apply well to Topo8 and only slightly less well to Topo9.
For direct questions, the user forum that RRLover pointed you to is helpful.
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I'm not sure when--but I think it was the mid-90's--I got a DeLorme Earthmate. It was the plain yellow receiver that required a computer or Palm PDA to provide a screen with which to see what was going on. It was a PITA trying to manage the two connected devices in the field, but it was a breakthrough product in that it got people in the GPS game for $100 (assuming you had the other hardware already).
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Thanks Team CowboyPapa. I was just wondering about the shaded relief because I have never seen a screenshot that showed it. I assume the Canada Topo maps have it as well?
Delorme seems to be making an interesting product now. Particularly the unit with the Spot. And the addition of Canadian/Mexican mapping.
To minimize the chance of a misunderstanding, let me add to my esteemed colleague's statements that AFAIK there will be shaded relief in the desktop Topo9 program's display, but I don't recall ever seeing shading in the vectorized topo data on the PN devices. The rasterized USGS 1:24K maps (available through subscription) *do* seem to show shaded relief that can be seen on the devices, but I think that's it (screen shots viewable at the PN-60 product page). I don't know for sure what any Canadian data will look like, but the sample on the linked site doesn't seem to show any.
I'm in 100% agreement that it's a cinch to copy the pre-cut vectorized topo maps from the DVD to the GPS or SD card...drag and drop stuff. It's a bit more complicated downloading the subscription map data and compiling files for use on the GPS, but once you grasp the process it's not hard. It takes a while to download larger quantities of data, so patience can be desirable.
I *think* it's pretty easy to keep updated with Northwest Trails--TotemLake, who posted immediately before your question, has done some conversions for the PN series and made it fairly painless--although as an east coast resident, I haven't messed around personally with the fantastic collection of trail data at that site.
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Here's the Topo9 down and dirty for geocaches:
Go to the Map Files tab, click the Geocaching button.
Log into your geocaching.com account.
Either click the update button to manually download your pocket queries, or toggle the Auto-Update option to automatically update whenever you open the project.
Sync to your PN-60.
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It appears the Windows version is now live (same link as above).
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There is a world-wide basemap which has little detail, but major roads for North America. The Topo North America map program bundled with the PN-60 provides detail street and 1:100K topo data. Map files that you can copy directly to the PN are included on a DVD in the bundle.
Edit: Eh, missed that there was a new page with replies already posted.
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The Delorme PN-40 (with newest firmware) and PN-60 fit that description: 1500 waypoints and/or caches per file, number of files subject only to available memory (32GB cards work in these units).
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Looking at the specs, they look like an interesting GPS series. While I like the idea of all-in-one products, I'm rather suspicious of the reliability of such gadgets when there are so many things that can go wrong.
The bottom line for me, however, is that I'm one of those old, bitter Magellan users who still carry a chip on my shoulder about the way customer service went from the top to the bottom about the time the original Explorist line was introduced. I used to say I would never get another Magellan; I've modified it slightly to when the hot place freezes over.
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Yeah, it's always been the case that one has to take a look at the maps available and go from there. DeLorme has always been pretty USA-centric, which have left other vendors more desirable for those with international needs. Anyway, good luck in your search.
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Is it easy to load caches? Can you down load field notes and log visits?
You can log in to your geocaching.com account from Topo9 and automatically download pocket queries into T9 whenever you start it up. Then you only need to connect the PN-60 and hit the Sync button to update your pocket queries on the GPS.
If you have logged finds on your PN-60, then T9 will automatically upload your field notes from GPS to your geocaching.com account on Syncing. I'd be hard put to imagine anything easier.
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I'm liking mine a lot. I had a PN-40 and liked it, too; the PN-60 brings better base battery life, better power-saving modes that extend battery life in a useful manner, activity profiles to remember and recall combinations of settings, and a nice graphical interface that makes it easy to navigate to different screens.
The biggest complaint that I think most people would have about it is the relatively small screen. It's good quality and highly readable under most all lighting conditions, but it's at the lower end of the handheld screen size range. The other ding is that it's a notch or two below Garmin handhelds in road routing capabilities--although many of us find it acceptable for incidental routing. I find it most convenient to use it for road routing to geocaches, for example, though I prefer my Nuvi with its voice directions for most other things.
International map coverage (i.e., beyond US, Canada, and Mexico) is problematic at the moment, but is expected to improve later in the year.
Got any specific questions?
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The show stops here...DeLorme is the effective gateway for bringing in maps that will work on the PN devices.
The closest one would come to "free" maps is a purchase of DeLorme's XMap Pro product (available for half-price of $99 to PN owners). That program allows the compilation of scanned images or images garnered from other sources into the format that the PN's require. The compiler opens up the way for creation of a potentially large number of maps that could be used, but they are limited to PN's that are registered to the generating XMap program. Wide-scale distribution of maps as we see at gpsfiledepot.com is not currently possible with DeLorme GPS's.
DeLorme's offering of international maps is pretty limited at present. They have announced that they plan to make their prohibitively-priced worldwide vector map data available in more affordable regional packages...but it's not going to be free.
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REALLY? Is that right? You can just use the Finder to navigate to whichever pre-cut map portion you want and load it without having to use Topo NA 9 to do it??? That'd be cool!
Also, with the file system on the PN-60, can you extract .gpx track files too without using TopoNA software? (ex: mount the volume, copy the .gpx natively to the desktop) Yes indeedy...if the little installation application doesn't run, you can just copy files with names like PAEast or PAWest directly from the DVD to either internal or SD memory in the GPS. This gives the standard form of the topo/street data that most people use; Topo9 allows for more customization in the file data. I don't know how much the pre-cuts were intended for Mac users; as a Windows user I find them useful, too.
Yes to the second question, too. You can copy/move .gpx files with waypoint, geocache, or track data directly from PN-60 memory to anywhere else you have a mind to. What I am not certain of is how compatible DeLorme's gpx format is with other programs. I'm not aware of problems, but I don't venture too far afield from Topo9 right now.
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I guess we're in that whole 'nuther discussion--or at least at the boundaries between the current discussion and that one.
Obviously, a single reading compared to a known location will immediately reveal the amount of error in the reading. And even here, we would ideally want a series of readings to see how consistent the amount of error is.
Without the adjusted coords benchmark, we can mark an identifiable location and repeat the exercise a number of times. On the second reading, it will likely differ from the first. At this juncture we don't know if the first is right and the second wrong, vice-versa, or (most likely) both are off. With successive markings we get a scatterplot which we would presume, I think, to be randomly distributed about the hypothetical "true" coordinates. The more readings, the less the error is likely to be...but we never have the degree of confidence in the amount of error as when we compare to the benchmark that is believed to be accurate to a matter of centimeters.
One problem, perhaps, is that it's not clear to me how many measurements we would want to record. In "practical use"--the key phrase in your argument--I think I agree that even without a benchmark, taking as many readings in as many conditions as possible as one has the patience for would yield a scatterplot whose tightness of spread would tell you all you need to know.
Concur?
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The known benchmark (i.e., one with adjusted, not scaled, coordinates) is the gold standard. Lee and TCP's suggestions are sometimes more convenient and certainly of value.
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Cable drill: clean the contacts on the PN-20 with a pencil eraser, make sure the spring-loaded contacts are extended in the cable head.
If you keep having trouble, give DeLorme TS a call and see if they have any ideas--or if they determine you need a new cable.
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I want to avoid using dual gps units, I have always used one for street navigation and trail use. I guess if the recommended approach to the pn-60 for street navigation is to buy a dedicated car navigator, am I to assume that street routing is that bad on the pn-60?
Well, to me it's not a matter that routing is that much worse on a PN device, it's that it's that much better on a dedicated auto device--spoken directions and larger screens being key.
In creating a route on my PN-60 at my desk, I see that the directions page lists both highway numbers and street names (e.g., "SR 116 (W Middle St)" I don't have my PN-40 here, so I can't say if it's the same.
Roads vary in accuracy depending on locale...they're pretty good in my area (Pennsylvania/Maryland). The Navtech maps aren't perfect, either, but I think they are generally better...and certainly have more POIs. (If memory serves, I think the Navtech maps had 6 million POIs for the US compared to about 4 million for DeLorme's maps...I might be wrong in the actual numbers, but I know there was a significant favor towards Garmin. Of course, the Navtech maps will cost you more.
Maingray, whose opinions I respect, has a much more critical appraisal of the PN's routing capability than I do; to call it "approaching abysmal" seems to me an overstatement. But most of his criticisms are valid--if, again, possibly overstated. I don't question the errors and shortcomings he found in his experience, but I've not seen the ramp and one-way problems in my experience. Still, I'm in agreement with him enough that if someone says they expect to be using their handheld at least half the time for driving, I suggest Garmin over DeLorme. If it's 60/40 or 70/30, I think the DeLorme autorouting is good enough to suffice.
If you're not deterred by my tepid endorsement (and I do think the PN-40 and PN-60 are great offroad devices), remember that you can try it to see for yourself. DeLorme will let you return it within 30 days if it doesn't satisfy, and you would only be out the shipping cost.
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Any ideas out there about what is going on with this thing? Thanks!
How did you get the caches onto the PN-40 the first time, and how are you trying to get them there now? Are you trying to move gpx or loc files onto the PN-40 (since you're not a premium member, I'm assuming we're not dealing with pocket queries)? And am I correct in assuming it's the PN-40 giving the error message, and not Topo9?
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If you have a PQ file and Topo8, you need only drag and drop the PQ into an open T8 project. Then transfer the resulting waypoint layer to your PN-40 with Handheld Exchange.
I agree that Topo9 makes it even easier. After you log into your geocaching.com account from within Topo9, all you have to do is hit the Sync button whenever Topo9 automatically updates your PQ files.
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The routing on the PN-60 seems to me about about the same as the PN-40; just faster. Faster is a Good Thing, of course, since one the major complaints about the PN-20 and even the PN-40 was how interminably long it could take to calculate. It's still the same form factor, so that small screen remains a drawback for this application. It's been a while since I've seen a Garmin handheld do routing, but I'm still thinking they're generally a significant notch above the DeLormes. I continue to use the PN-60 for road routing to caches, finding it fine for short routes, but I defer to the Nuvi 255 for driving without caching.
That said, I don't think you should be deterred. I'd consider the PN-60 a reasonably competent road router, but you shouldn't have overly high expectations...it's OK, nothing special in that regard.
I'll hope that someone in a position to offer a more direct comparison will show up, too.
P.S. I just had my PN-60 calculate a route to a friend's house 32 miles away (fairly rural area). It took 11 seconds to calculate the route. A 126 mile route took 18 seconds.
Also, with the file system on the PN-60, can you extract .gpx track files too without using TopoNA software? (ex: mount the volume, copy the .gpx natively to the desktop)
PN 40 FW 2.8 & CR.. Help!
in GPS technology and devices
Posted
At the current time, the web-based help available from CR is the best detailed step-by-step I know of. Is there a particular place where things seem to be going wrong for you?
The web help is also accessible here.