Fugads

What concerns me is that Reviewers are initializing action on caches with unresponsive owners, thus giving them a death sentence. I learned elsewhere that once a Needs Archive is posted, it is the sole responsibility of the CO to respond, and that if no response is provided the cache is archived, regardless of whether it is there and can be found or not. My own experience was with a puzzle cache that I had found and was watching. The owner was no longer active but I kept tabs on it. It hadn't been found in over a year, I was the last finder. A new cacher came into town and posted a DNF and then NA on the cache, stating that they had found the location and it had washed away. That cacher also contacted me as the last finder of the cache, and I then told them they had made a mistake in their solution, and that I would check on it the next time I was out that way. I did check on it and the cache was indeed where it was supposed to be, in pristine condition. I contacted the Reviewer about this stating that it needn't be archived, but was told that it would be archived anyways since the owner was not responsive. There were some good reasons for this, but it still left me with a bad feeling. If the owner is unresponsive, the cache cannot be adopted out, nor can it be maintained, so a NA post will kill the cache. This is regardless of whether the locals know that it is there, or wish to keep it alive, or find that it was a great cache. I just feel like a system like this could be abused. Say I know a certain local cacher is no longer responsive. I could put NAs on all their caches and get them all taken out of the game, despite the fact that the caches are findable. This feels like malicious behavior to me which may be why some have taken issue with the actions of a few Reviewers. Alternatively, you can let the listings stay in place for years until there really is sufficient evidence that they are gone. I call this the natural death of a cache. It makes more sense to me, but then perhaps I am used to searching for and not finding old unmaintained caches. I just consider that part of the game now. But why would Reviewers be taking it upon themselves to do this? What goal does it serve? One solution I've heard for this is that if the locals really wanted to, they could let the listing be archived and then get a brand new listing published for the same cache in the same spot. My first reaction to this is that it isn't quite the same, as it doesn't preserve the cache's history (Jasmer anhyone?). But I suppose it could. For all of the caches that the OP is bringing to attention why not create a new listing for each one. Assuming the listing gets published, the cache at that location continues to exist and will then have a responsive CO. You could even go so far as to provide a link to the archived cache as well. This might not work everywhere due to land management issues and grandfathered caches. But if you really feel strongly that these caches are being archived unnecessarily, and they are in you home area, I suppose it is some action you could take. Just thinking out loud here.

As someone who enjoys seeking lonely caches, it is sad to see that the owners of said caches do not appear to be putting much effort into keeping them active. For the examples cited in NJ, my gut feeling is that the reviewer is being particularly (and maybe unnecessarily) proactive in clearing out caches that aren't being found or have little interest. I can understand that this is acceptable if the COs are not stepping up to vouch for their cache listings. It appears that the COs are being given a chance to keep the listings active, and just aren't exercising that option. But maybe we aren't seeing the whole story from just the logs on the geocache listings? On another note, are all the examples from the same Reviewer? I'll admit I did not click on every link from the OP, but am guessing that they are mostly local to that OP's area. Is this widespread Reviewer behavior or just the actions of one Reviewer? Maybe it's more of a regional thing/culture?

I sympathize with the OP, and have experienced things from the other side. A few years ago I published a somewhat involved multi cache. The first few cachers to try it followed all the directions, visited multiple spots, and then ended up with final coords that just plain didn't make sense. They visited them anyways, but found nothing. They even tried emailing me, but I was out hiking/caching and didn't get their email (still a dumb-phone user, yes, we exist). Another cacher attempted the multi that morning and ended up with the same bad final coordinates, but he happened to have my phone number and gave me a call. As luck would have it, I had my little caching notebook with me that contained the final coords for the cache, and some dummy coords that I had used when coming up with the cache concept. Sure enough, I had mistakenly pointed the final of my multi to those dummy coordinates instead of the real location. I was grateful that my mistake was caught by a friend and he was even able to temporarily fix it for me, and claimed the FTF. When I finally got home from my hike, I realized the other cachers would have indeed been first if I hadn't messed up, and I felt badly about it, and sent them a note to that effect. I remember those first cachers being somewhat pissed that they missed the FTF because they hadn't had my phone number (they even posted in their log about how a phone call beats email any day), and that is how I imagine you feel as well. It is understandable. Mistakes happen, some people sometimes get what others deserved, life can be unfair. But in the end, we can all have a good time and respect one another. I ended up becoming good friends with the cachers who missed the FTF on my cache, and the whole debacle just became one more story to tell while on the trail or meeting at events.

That's the main page I use to get anything done, and the page I have bookmarked to get to this site in the first place. Can you please share some information about what will be replacing it? I too, would like to understand more about how things will change. As silly as it sounds, I liked my profile image and had even received some nice comments on it from other cachers. When I noticed it suddenly disappeared, I was a little miffed, but not overly distraught. It took a little digging to find the image url, it was from a photo I uploaded to a cache found many years ago, and I wasn't sure which one. Luckily, I remembered that someone had used my profile image as a background for a cache they placed to commemorate a long geocaching streak (by my view anyways) I had accomplished, so I was able to get the url from that. Curiously, the URL still has a file extension which reads "...//imgcdn.geocaching.com/user/large/....." which seems like it is linked to something in my profile account. Wondering if those images will get purged or of they will remain in storage somewhere. But the point I was really going to make, was that getting my profile-image back on my profile-page took way less time than reading through this thread has taken. Interesting as it all is (but mostly kvetching), I'm not too worried about the brand new look of things to come. Sure it would be nice to see a preview. But I know that whatever it ends up looking like, I will be able to adapt it to something that suits me.

I know I'm just nutty, but I always get a little miffed when folks confuse the summit register for a mountain for the cache. This particular cache is a tough 3rd class scramble, GC1DY6K. Nope, the summit register is not the cache, which is a good 50ft away in this case. Why not write a note? I can be happy that you visited this great mountain top, but find the cache... not at all.

GC2WRJ3 placed in the mountains I love and lived near for several years. It requires multi-pitch rock climbing to attain. I actually got a proximity exception for it to be there, showing my geocaching green-ness. It sat unfound for nearly three years, until I invited a cacher friend to climb back up and check on it with me. Yep, still there, and in pristine condition(and now with 100% Favorite Points!). I suspect it may go another 3 years before its next find, although rumor has it one of the areas climber/cachers is moving back, so maybe it'll see a find sooner? When it does get found, I'm sure there will be a nice story to accompany the log.

I love a good high-terrain multi, and kept a bookmark list of some of my favorites in the Southern NM area. I'd have to say my favorite is Tour De Horns because it took you up 4 separate rocky spires in a gorgeous mountain range. Really awesome 4th class adventure. That theme pretty much sums up the kinds of multis I love and most of the ones on my list: rugged mountain adventures, can't go wrong!

There is a really great website that can help identify lonely caches, www.lonelycache.com. Downside is, it is only applicable to certain western states, I think NM, AZ, NV, UT, CO, WY and ID. They might add more at some point though. If you happen to be heading to one of these states, this site is worth a check.

This came up in some general topic threads, but there appears to be a disconnect between the Last Online/Last Visit information on a user's profile, and activity from a user with a mobile app. I hope I'm not just horribly mistaken, but it looks like the Last Online/Last-visit data is only for visits to the website itself through some sort of web-browser. People using geocaching apps and not visiting the website do not have this information updated. And in some cases, for people who exclusively use mobile apps, the website may show that they have not visited in a long time, if ever. Maybe no one sees this as a problem, and it is not worth worrying about, but some people use the last visit/last online data to try to determine if a cacher is still active in an area. Would it not be possible for this information to be updated not only when someone visits the website, but also when a user uses a mobile app to access geocaching information?

I'm not sure of the "showing inactive" part, but cachers who access the site by phone will not show visits. It's quite possible to show no visits for years, but have recent finds. I've noticed a sharp uptick in "inactive" accounts, to the point where I'm wondering if accounts are being marked "inactive" automatically after some emails bounce? just speculating here. Used to be fairly rare, but i sure see it a lot lately. This seems like something Groundspeak should really be interested in fixing. Finding out if someone is active on the site should be easy and accurate, and it seems like the current system does not make this so. Is it a difficult software challenge to have site status tied to someone logging caches as well as visiting the site?

Interesting idea, I wouldn't support it, but it does make you think. I may be reading between the lines, but something niraD mentioned rang most true. Some people have loads of favorite points and dole them out all over. Others are very selective about the kinds of caches they find, and tend to give their favorite points out as soon as they get them, because they mostly find quality caches to begin with. Basically, the number of favorite points you give out, and have saved up is a function of how you cache. I suspect that those with tons of favorite points saved up have done some serious numbers-caching, and since the high quality caches they find are so few and far between, a way to heap a bigger reward might appeal to them. The caching I like best involves long hikes, and when I am getting out to do these kinds of hikes, I almost always have a FP deficit, I want to give them all FPs. Lately, I haven't been able to get out and do any long hikes, but have managed to do some mini-trails around the deserts here, and have built up a bunch of FPs. One cacher in my area exclusively does these long hikes, and while his number of finds might be considered low to some (~500 over 5 years), if I see a hike get a favorite point from him I know it is going to be awesome. One thing you can do is look at someone's public profile who you think has a similar style as you, and check out their favorites list. As for the proposed gold star, I see it mainly appealing to high-numbers-cachers, and being relatively meaningless to most others. If you really want to have a means for some of your finds to stand out much more than others, you can do so in a personalized way. There is a cacher in the Albuquerque area who had his own rating system that looked like this: For his first 2000 finds*, he gave each one a Wow factor rating, and has bookmark lists for ratings of 3 and higher. Once I found that we had similar tastes, going to his bookmark list for 4, 4.5 and 5 rated caches was really helpful. Groundspeak doesn't need to implement some new feature for anyone to do this, in fact the OP could create a bookmark list called "Gold Star Caches" that would cover all the ones he wishes he could put tens of FPs on. *After 2000 finds, he decided it wasn't worth his effort to continue this scale, and now simply uses the current favorite point system.

I like this general idea, separating the found/ALR aspect. But I think it still has one major flaw in that once someone completes a challenge, they may be able log their Challenge Completed over and over again for each instance of that challenge. For example, let's say there are roughly 100 Fizzy challenges throughout the world. Once someone completes their Fizzy, they would be able to log "Challenge Completed" a hundred times over. This seems somewhat ridiculous, but it would happen. Currently, having to have found the physical cache limits this somewhat. What would the "Challenges Completed" stat mean if a single challenge can have hundreds of accompanying "Completed" logs? This gets back to a point I was trying to make earlier. That Challenge Caches should be targeted to a certain location/population. When I put out a challenge cache in my area, I am challenging the local geocachers to try to complete said challenge. Sure, if someone outside the area notices this cache, and decides to visit to log a found they can do so. But I am not throwing down the gauntlet for the entire world, simply by the act of putting the cache right here near me.

Well shucks, look what's happening in my neck of the desert. Thanks for posting this, I've never heard of this dude before. And his writing is pretty amusing. I sincerely doubt he will become a geocache vigilante though. It seems like he is more interested in writing a somewhat provocative (to geocachers) article. The cache in question is not nearly as remote as he make sit out to be, there are some way more remote ones out in the Gila. And any cache owner who places caches out here should expect to have to deal with missing caches at some point, there have been lots of recent forest fires and flooding aside from the occasional muggle. I'm not worried by this guy (and I do own a cache out his way). And I wouldn't mind sitting down with him and chatting over a beer. We've been over lots of the same ground.

From what I understand, you do not even need to wait until the container falls into disrepair. If a Needs Archive is posted to a cache (because someone perceives it to be gone/impossible) and the owner does not respond, it can/will be archived unless there are special circumstances. I learned about this when someone posted a NA on the final for a local series. The final was becoming harder to find since the prerequisite caches were disappearing and the CO was no longer active. Someone posted a NA on it assuming it was gone as well, but I checked on it and it was in fine shape, and it was even reasonably possible to determine its coordinates. I pointed this out to the reviewer and they explained to me that once a NA is posted, if the owner doesn't speak up the cache will be archived, regardless of actual cache condition. This applies to any cache, challenges included.. It struck me as odd, since one could get caches archived even if they are in good shape and being found.

I was having similar thoughts over in another thread. You have an interesting take on some of the issues with Challenge Caches and I think your point about not having a physical cache for the non-location based challenges makes sense. But wasn't this tried a few years back with poor results? Anyhow, I thought I'd try to organize my thoughts into a handy matrix:

You make good points lamoracke, I overstepped by insinuating that caches are placed in order to taunt locals. And I'll probably only put my foot in my mouth further by elaborating, but read on if you will. I could place a challenge cache that challenges one to find an APE cache. I do not live anywhere close to the APE cache. I could legitimately be challenging those in my area to travel to the last remaining APE cache to complete this challenge, but what does that have to do with my area? Why place a challenge cache here that people who most likely know about the challenge are unlikely to do (fair assumption considering that only people within a certain distance will be notified or notice the cache being placed)? Or am I trying to get geocachers from other areas to come to my little corner of the world so they can log my challenge cache? To me that seems a little like "thumbing one's nose" at the locals; creating something that mostly will be found by people traveling through or visiting from afar. We have a local Jasmer challenge and it is found regularly by out-of-staters, but so far only 3 locals including the parents of the CO have logged it. Some other locals may be marginally trying as a long-term thing perhaps. I guess it's cool and all for all those Jasmer finishers to visit our little town to come log this challenge cache . One counter argument to the above would be about placing high terrain caches, SCUBA or mountain climbing caches that also cannot be found by many locals and may also be found only by people visiting from afar. I see these in a different light though because whereas the APE challenge cache example has nothing to do with the local geography, these high terrain caches have everything to do with the local geography. If my high terrain traditional is challenging folks to climb a particular mountain, it's because that mountain is worth climbing and is it's own unique experience. Not so with the challenge cache where the challenge bears no relevance to the location, it is merely placed there because it is close to the CO. Better cut this off before my I choke on my foot any further. Consider the above discussion food for thought.

I realize the OP has a specific example mind, and that specific example might be interesting, but I would generalize. There are other types of "Unknown" caches that require finding a specific set of other geocaches first. The one that's common around here is a series of traditional caches, each with a clues that when put together, forms coordinates for some final or bonus cache. In these instances, when one of the prerequisite caches is archived, locating the final becomes tougher if not impossible. A challenge cache requiring a certain subset is kind of the same thing. In both case, I feel that it is best to simply post a NM log on any missing prerequisites, and the final/challenge. If the owner is around, they can change the challenge/final, or replace missing caches, etc... If the owners are not around, a Needs Archive can follow and if the CO does not respond because they are no longer active, the caches will be archived by the reviewer. You could generalize even further, treating this scenario no different than you would a multi with missing stages, a virtual where waypoints requiring certain information have changed etc... In my mind, they are all the same sort of issue. An aside, I am kind of looking forward to the day when the famous Jasmer Challenge is no longer attainable, and all those Jasmer Challenge caches placed throughout the world can get archived. I get the feeling that many regard the Jasmer as a really awesome challenge and worth pursuing, but I've always thought it was pretty ridiculous, requiring ungodly amounts of travel, or living close to those rare few that fill certain months. Placing a Jasmer Challenge in an area far away from those rare required caches is kind of like bragging that you've traveled really far to meet the challenge, or maybe thumbing your nose at the locals who will rarely have a chance to attempt the challenge. But will the Jasmer ever become unobtainable? As others have pointed out in other threads, those rare-month caches are guarded by their local communities as being something special (since they attract the Jasmer seekers?) and are kept alive despite owners not being present, throw-downs occurring etc... Of course, if a particular Month becomes unobtainable, all those owners of Jasmer challenges would simply have to change their Challenge Listings to make that month a freebie....

Maybe you could add some context by providing some examples of how it was used. I was thinking perhaps Made The Find.

Ha! I do the same thing! And another funny thing with young kids: we were out on a family hike and decided to revisit a cache we had found over a year ago. What did the kids want to trade for? The stuff we had left in the cache the previous year! And this despite there being other cool stuff in the cache that IMO was more interesting. A kids mind works in wonderful ways.

You sent it to the right place. You'll find a variety of topics here and although not common, it's nice to read stories like yours. I'm still hoping to get back to Istanbul to do some more geocaching. I'll echo that it is nice to see posts like this in the forums. Seems like they are the minority, but are often way more fun to read. Thanks for sharing.

I bumped into this rule when I created my first challenge, but I have come around to seeing the rule as doing more good than harm. Sure it prevents certain kinds of challenges that might be good, but it also prevents some really terrible challenge ideas from occurring. I know of one cacher who wanted to publish a "Lamest Geocache Challenge" where one requirement was to hide your own really lame cache. I know it was mostly a joke and the cacher was trying to be funny (and poke fun at lame caches), but I mostly saw it as encouraging bad behavior . I mean, encouraging people to create bad cache experiences?.... a purposeful degradation of this game. I'm glad things like this are not permitted, and if it means some good challenge ideas get canned too, so be it. There are lot's of other good ways to celebrate those who hide caches, as this Months Maker Madness theme highlights.

Such sites exist. Like much on the web some are pretty good and others are pretty ho-hum. There is one in particular that I think is pretty good, Hike-AZ. Despite its name, it encompasses much more than just Arizona. It appears you can enter in hikes for all 50 states, Canada and Mexico. Maybe it'll grow to Europe? It's pretty cool in that you can post off-trail hikes, mountaineering scrambles, canyoneering... all sorts of stuff. Where it has a strong user-base, it is a pretty good database/resource (like here in Southern NM), in other areas it appears that it is mostly populated with hikes already published in other resources..

They don't have to be. Like any other cache, they reflect the people that create them. If there are types of geocaching related challenges that you like, create those. I own 3 challenge cache listings and none of them are geared towards power cachers.

My most memorable geocaches usually are related to some especially harrowing trial. Like when I crawled through a 24" diameter storm drain for hundreds of feet only to find out I was in the wrong (and harder) drain (see log). Or when I ended up down a sandy arroyo only to find a locked gate at a pecan farm, and then had to hike through the Pecan farm to find the farmers/security to help get me out (log). I guess it's the misadventures that I remember most vividly. That's not to say there aren't a lot of great caches that I've really been wowed by, there certainly have been those. Maybe too many of them for each one to stand out as memorable, guess I should be doing more "ho-hum" caches .

Sunday afternoon was perfect for some trail running and caching along a new series put out by a local. The brand new single track had a lot of mtn bikers and hikers on it. And the yucca blooms are starting to come out, always a favorite of mine.