EdrickV

As has been said, the description is likely to be far more useful then the coordinates with regard to scaled benchmarks. (Note that if you are using coordinates from Geocaching.com benchmark pages, it's possible the benchmark may have more accurate coordinates in the NGS datasheet rather then the Geocaching.com cached copy.) As far as long lost landmarks, if such landmarks are the kind that would show up on topographic maps, then you could try looking for old USGS topographic maps. They allow downloading digital copies of old topographic maps for free. There may be other old maps that you might be able to find. (I forget where I found them, but I actually was able to find a digital copy of an original plat map from the 1800's. Now that was amazing to find.) As far as non-NGS marks, if a mark is on private property (and I mean like someone's home/farm/other residential type property) then I would not bother trying to make it a Waymark. If the mark is somewhere that benchmark hunters might be able to get permission to search for it, then deciding whether to Waymark it or not would be a judgement call. (Though talking to the person/people in charge would probably be a good idea.) For the most part I don't think Waymarks get the kind of attention (and traffic) that Geocaches do. Though if a specific procedure is needed to gain access to the mark, then obviously that info would need to be on the Waymark page. (I've actually seen similar things in some NGS datasheets. "Contact so and so at 555-123-4567 to get access.") The one thing you could do, even if a mark is not accessible to other benchmark hunters, would be to post about it in a thread here (including pictures if available) so you can share your experience finding it. I did that for a PLSS Quarter Section Corner that I knew is on private property (that I happened to have access to) but obviously I'm not going to Waymark it.

DSWorld has surprised me on more then one occasion. (Like when I discovered it can, sometimes, pull up useful information about nonpub benchmarks.) Some of the info I posted above came from "View Mark Data by PID." The Google Earth features are nice too.

The vertical data for TT0860 is apparently too old and unchecked to be reliable. I assume, for it to be used again, someone would have to go out there and do a leveling run. (At least I think that's the right terminology.) Data on both marks from DSWorld, note the parts I highlighted in red. TT0698 was used in two level lines that TT0860 was not. (Probably because TT0860 wasn't found.) I'm thinking that data from those level lines were probably used to provide height data to more modern standards. The height data for TT0860 was never updated, and I'm thinking this is why: You can't check the height of a mark if you can't find it.

Actually, there were recovery reports, just not on the NGS site. Dave D. (one of the top honchos at the NGS) has collected coordinates from recovery logs on GC.com and used them to update the NGS datasheets. John In my book, Geocaching.com logs are not the same as Recovery Reports. That said, at least two I know of do not have any coordinates posted in logs/recovery reports on either site and still have been updated to HD_HELD1. (Differentially corrected hand held GPS observations) While I'm not quite sure what the difference is between HH1 and HH2, (other then accuracy) I have noticed that a mark that did have coordinates posted in a Geocaching.com log was updated to HD_HELD2 coordinates. (I did know he has been collecting info about benchmarks from this site to update the NGS database with, and there was one mark I wanted to go find specifically to provide updated coordinates for since the NGS didn't find it but Geocachers have. But I couldn't get near that one.) I just happened to read an older thread with a post by Dave D. that seems to provide an explanation for the HH1 coordinates I mentioned above, which fits case 2 as they are reference marks of a triangulation station: http://forums.Groundspeak.com/GC/index.php?showtopic=254978&view=findpost&p=4404204

Might be possible in a non-Geocaching GPS navigation app that can import custom POIs, and it should be possible with a Garmin Nuvi type car navigation GPS. Putting Geocaches on the Nuvi as POIs would require (at a minimum) Garmin's free POI Loader, and (for a basic member) either GPSBabel to convert .loc files to one or more .gpx files, or .gpx files saved to the GPS via the Send to GPS button. Premium members could just use pocket queries with POI Loader, and could put paperless style info on a variety of Nuvi models with the use of GSAK. Edit: Oh, and as far as keeping a device (phone or otherwise) active, that's where a DC car adapter comes in handy. I've had my phone's Geocaching (and GPS navigation) apps running constantly for hours using a DC->USB adapter and a USB sync/charge cord. Of course, the programs I use would not be using a data connection, that might be an issue depending on the plan.

Datasheets getting updates without recovery reports doesn't seem that uncommon. I know an area where a whole bunch of benchmarks got updated from scaled to handheld coordinates without any recovery reports.

If you look near the top of the Geocaching.com page it says: Coordinates may not be exact. Altitude is UNKNOWN and location is SCALED. Looking at the Geocaching.com cached datasheet page you can see the following: TT0860* NAD 83(1986)- 61 22 36. (N) 149 32 52. (W) SCALED TT0860* NAVD 88 - TT0860 ___________________________________________________________________ TT0860 GEOID HEIGHT- 10.38 (meters) GEOID99 TT0860 TT0860 VERT ORDER - FIRST CLASS II (See Below) TT0860 TT0860.The horizontal coordinates were scaled from a topographic map and have TT0860.an estimated accuracy of +/- 6 seconds. TT0860 TT0860.The vertical order pertains to the superseded datum. TT0860 TT0860.The geoid height was determined by GEOID99. TT0860 TT0860 SUPERSEDED SURVEY CONTROL TT0860 TT0860 NGVD 29 - 43.089 (m) 141.37 (f) ADJ UNCH 1 2 TT0860 TT0860.Superseded values are not recommended for survey control. TT0860.NGS no longer adjusts projects to the NAD 27 or NGVD 29 datums. TT0860.See file dsdata.txt to determine how the superseded data were derived. My guess is that it's height never got updated to the current datum because they couldn't find the mark in order to verify the height.

I thought you said the USACE disk was on the jetty? NB 1 6 (aka NGS DX1963) is supposed to be on the seawall, and (comparing with NB 1 5 here: DX1964 NGS Datasheet) it seems like it should be an Orange County Surveyor benchmark disk, not a USACE disk. (The layer you would have been looking at in U-Smart to see NB 1 6 would be an NGS layer, which you can also see on the site below with a Google Maps interface.) NB 1 6 has scaled coordinates, and from the description it looks like the coordinates are south of the actual location. (For scaled location benchmarks you usually try to figure out where it is based on the description rather then the coordinates. They can be quite a bit off) http://benchmarks.scaredycatfilms.com/ Here is the Geocaching.com page for NB 1 6: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=DX1963 An example of how scaled coordinates can be off: I am at the blue circle on the GPS's screen. The scaled coordinates for the benchmark would put it out in the water.

It is already corrected, the Geocaching.com database is about 12 years out of date. (So not only is it missing corrections like this, there are newer benchmarks that aren't on the website. Some of those have been added to Waymarking.com though.) Here's the current datasheet: http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/ds_mark.prl?PidBox=DH2492 I get my datasheets directly from the NGS site and process them through NGS->GPX. That makes Pocket Query style gpx files I can load into GSAK and onto my phone. http://ngs.tsqmadness.com/help/index.html

Those two aren't likely to be in the NGS database. The first is an Army Corps of Engineers survey mark while the second would be a City of Los Angeles survey mark. The ACOE mark does not show up on the ACOE's U-SMART system, and there isn't enough info posted here to try and find the second one, but here are some links to the ACOE and City of Los Angeles benchmark databases. USACE Survey Marker Archive & Retrieval Tool (U-SMART) https://rsgisias.crrel.usace.army.mil/apex/f?p=493:1:0::NO (For current USACE marks, they may have nice HTML datasheets complete with pictures, the map's query tool is a little weird though since you have to make sure you have the right query layer selected. It can also show NGS benchmarks.) City of LA precise benchmarks: http://eng.lacity.org/techdocs/benchmarks/ USACE marks are often posted on Waymarking.com, (sister site to Geocaching.com) but I didn't see that particular one. There are others though, along with Orange County Survey Marks.

If anyone is interested, I've made three NonPub related GSAK macros. The first one imports NonPub mark info from a text file and creates basic entries for them, including descriptions of some of the more common codes, and optionally will mark XX marks as archived and DZ/TT marks as disabled. Using a separate database for NonPub marks is recommended. Here is an example of the data format for the text file and : (Basically it's just the NonPub entries from the bottom of a full county datasheet set with all the info above removed.) >AA6819 15 1 42 15 50.4/083 09 46.1 ? XX >AA6816 18 1 42 11 00.0/083 16 03.0 ? XX >NE0828 2 1875 42 05 27. /083 11 16. 178.041 2 DZ >NE0107 32 42 40 56. /082 43 51. 183. 1 XX >NE0576 904 4030 DUPLEX 42 12 08. /083 08 51. 178. 1 XX >NE0862 904 4030 F 42 12 27. /083 08 53. 178. 1 XX >NE0135 904 4049 LOT 42 21 39. /082 55 40. 176. 1 XX >NE0602 A 181 42 17 37. /083 06 37. 180. 1 XX As it is the macro will ignore NN entries since the ones I've seen are usually in Browse Mode and are duplicates. The second macro will try to add NonPub Azimuth mark data as child waypoints to datasheets in a normal benchmark database that reference them. (It takes two databases as options and looks for the NonPub Azimuth mark in the source database and tries to find one or more box score references for the mark's PID in the second database.) The third macro does the same as the second macro for reference marks, since I've noticed that some reference marks seem to have the same box score style info as Azimuth marks which NGS->GPX doesn't seem able to turn into coordinates. These two macros are quite a bit slower then the first macro, depending on the size of the NonPub database. (Making a NonPub database for each NGS->GPX database would be better performance wise then just having one NonPub database.)

Tried my first recovery report (via DSWorld) and it asked me if "fpr information" was available. Since I have no clue what that is, I said no. So does anyone here know what it was asking about?

I've recently discovered another interesting feature of DSWorld: For NonPub marks DSWorld may be able to pull up some info via Mark Data by PID or on the Recovery Report page. (A little note: A simple way to avoid permission issues for a specific program would be to install the program outside the Program Files folders. I installed DSWorld in a folder in C:\Tools\ which is a place I use to store a lot of utility programs, especially those without installers.)

Funny that this thread would happen to be revived today, since I was looking at a Michigan Right of Way marker just like the one in the first post earlier today. As far as who places the marks, I would think it would be the local state's Department of Transportation, since presumably they would be the ones that own the right of way property.

Nook doesn't have GPS hardware. Though apparently (with rooted Nook and rooted Android phone) it's possible to use TetherGPS to use the phone's GPS hardware on the Nook.

Haven't actually submitted any recovery reports, so I can't really compare it to the website form, but I do like how it auto-fills information on the form when you type a PID in. I have been checking out some of it's other features and found out some interesting stuff. (Because of DSWorld I've learned about a non-pub EDMI calibration base line that happens to be in a park and might be interesting to check out. Though I had to make my own coordinates with the help of Google Earth and GSAK, since the nonpub coordinates seem to be off quite a bit when viewed through Google Earth. Which brings to mind another interesting DSWorld feature: The ability to show both published and nonpub benchmarks into Google Earth. The fact that benchmarks viewed in Google Earth have links both to the NGS datasheet and the Geocaching.com page is also cool.

The online sources you used would use data sources that would not have the kind of elevation accuracy you would need. As for your iPhone, I've seen a post by someone asking why their iPhones (including a 4S) were 100 feet off. GPS based elevation (assuming that's what your iPhone is using) has a rather limited accuracy that may be worse then it's positional accuracy. Even the altimeters used by aircraft aren't perfect since they have to be adjusted to the current barometric pressure. As I understand it, the most comprehensive map of the Earth ever made was made using ASTER data from the Japanese satellite Terra. Here's a quote from an article that mentions it's elevation accuracy: "In addition to the resolution issues, the ASTER folks have expended a lot of effort to determine the vertical accuracy of the dataset. The stated accuracy is 7-14m stated in terms of standard deviation. This should mean that 99% of GDEM data will fall within +/- 42m maximum of the actual elevation. Vertical accuracy was determined by subtracting GDEM elevation values from those of other datasets, including the NED and SRTM plus comparison with control points." If you really don't trust that surveyor, then see if you can get a second opinion from another one. But online sources like Google Maps or consulting a smartphone just won't cut it.

The PLSS data for my county (and in fact most of my state) does not come from the BLM but from alternate sources. And while I did download those programs, they don't seem to have anything to do with the PLSS data that I have, which are ESRI shapefiles of the PLSS grid. In any event, I'm not actually using that one converted file anyways. (The one I eventually converted from Shapefile to GPX.) What I am doing is using the PLSS grid data (either the KML conversion of the shapefile in Google Earth, or via Geocommunicator interactive map) to find potential places to look up in the remonumentation database to verify the existence of a monument in accessible areas. At this time, I'm not terribly worried about looking for PLSS marks in other states, (unless they're waymarks) though I wouldn't mind checking out the reference monument for the Beginning Point of the U.S. Public Land Survey, which is on the Ohio/Pennsylvania border and has it's own Wikipedia entry, complete with coordinates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beginning_Point_of_the_U.S._Public_Land_Survey Probably be a long time before I'd have a chance to go there though.

At the moment I'm using a Windows Mobile 6.1 AT&T Tilt smartphone with the Cachebox Geocaching program. It uses OSM map tiles and would not use a Garmin overlay map. (I'm thinking about getting an Etrex 30 in the Fall/Winter though.) I also sometimes use a Garmin Nuvi for Geocaching/Benchmark hunting, though I've yet to use it for PLSS marks. I do have MapSource & Basecamp though so I will take a look at that map overlay. I originally downloaded PLSS grid shapefiles for my state and converted them to KML files so I could have a PLSS grid overlay in Google Earth, and that works pretty well, though with the whole state's grid up it slows down when zoomed out. Unfortunately GE's usefulness is limited when without internet and I can't put it on my phone. I then tried to make a database of possible PLSS locations for my phone by converting the KML file to CSV, the CSV to LOC, and importing into GSAK. However the state wide file seems to be too big for GSAK. So I tried just doing one county and managed to do it. (Over 4000 possible locations in my county alone.) However not all those locations may actually have a PLSS mark. (I believe the waypoints created by this method include every intersection of lines from the grid, but some of the intersections may not actually be section corners/quarter section corners but intersections where the grid was subdivided into smaller sections. Before I used that info to actually go out and look for markers, I found out that there's an online database for my state where the remonumentation project data is stored and that has proven to be a far better location reference tool since it doesn't just say where marks are, but what they are and what kind of witness marks are near them. (Even though I'm not totally sure how you read the witness mark direction/distance info.) Interestingly, the original description for a lot of these section corners use ancient measurement standards that I didn't know existed before, like Chains, Links, and Rods. The newer descriptions usually use more modern standards. Here are links to the "Land Corner Recordation Certificate" pages for the two corners that mark the beginning points of the Michigan PLSS grid. The monuments there are rather impressive compared to normal. (The grids don't quite line up east/west of the Meridian so there are two monuments, one to the North, one to the South, and both within a unique undeveloped and land-locked state park.) North: http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/remon/dt_image.asp?remon_index=01S01EA0120041206&directory=01S01E South: (2 pages) http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/remon/dt_image.asp?remon_index=01N01WM1320071106&directory=01N01W Since the info sheets above are really just TIFF images, to get that info into GSAK I end up having to type it in, so I don't copy all the data just the data I think will be useful to find the mark, and I print the sheet out so I can have the full info with me. (Some of the sheets I've seen have drawings of how the monument was found and how it was remonumented.) The one thing these sheets don't have is GPS coordinates, and that's where this website comes in handy: http://www.earthpoint.us/TownshipsSearchByDescription.aspx The website that got me started on all this (and where I believe the data for your overlay map came from) is here: http://www.geocommunicator.gov/GeoComm/lsis_home/home/ There are a few PLSS marks that are in parks and, assuming I can locate them, I may turn them into Waymarks so others can find them too.

A filter search for (WRH) only shows 5 marks. 1 is the Prospect Park MORC one above, the others are USGS or CGS marks. The other MORC marks I've looked at didn't have initials. Aside from Prospect Park, all the other MORC marks in MN are caps (listed either as P or C marker codes) and later recovery reports (usually CGS or NGS) are where the cap is stated to be a Mississippi River Commission cap while the initial description says it was described by the Missouri River Commission. Prospect Park does predate the other MORC marks in the state, so the idea of it being a training/bluebooking exercise is interesting.

These are the three witness marks I found nearby and pics of the two trees with blazes that two of the witness marks are on. And yes, there is a hunting blind to the East, as well as one to the South that doesn't show up in the pictures. (The Eastern neighbor would have had a much easier time getting here then I did, the mark is at the corner of a field.)

I was a little surprised to find out there was a witness post here, but it was pretty cool to discover and did help me locate the mark quicker, though it wouldn't have been hard even without the witness post. Note the old fence post and fence wire (dating at least to 1974) is still there. North view: South view: East view:

Over the weekend I had a chance to search for one of the relatively few PLSS corners (a quarter section corner in this case) that is not in the middle of a road and which I figured I had a chance at getting to. This particular section corner is deep in private property, but it so happens that some family members own part of the property. (The mark would be at the Southeast corner of their property.) I originally had an idea to go to a spot along the East side of their property that I knew of (marked by an old fence) and head South to the corner, but do to the route I took and some relatively modern paths I actually found my way to a point at the East border South of the area I'd planned, and I realized there that going straight South wouldn't be much of an option. So I took a different route to a spot I knew would be closer and found a pathway that got me a lot closer then I'd expected, with evidence that someone from the family had actually been out near if not to the mark. But, between my smartphone and a cheap compass I bought a while ago I managed to find the mark pretty easily. The mark had been remonumented in 2002, and the info I had came from that visit. (Michigan started a program in 1990 to remark all the section corners in the state, and put the info from the visits online in a format somewhat like a datasheet. Here is some of the info I had to go on: (besides GPS coordinates calculated via a web page from the PLSS grid location) Description of corner evidence found and/or method applied in restoring or reestablishing corner: Found 1/2" rebar 3" high on West face 14" wood corner post. Description of monument for corner and accessories established to perpetuate locating the position of the corner: Accepted rebar at corner remains of old fence N/S and set Remonumentation Monument over it as best evidence available of the position of the original corner. N 77 W 26.27' Set 60d & Remon tag above 16d S side 6" Ash. N 13 E 4.18' Set 60d & Remon tag above 16d W side 8" Poplar with Blaze. S 15 W 29.77' Set 60d & Remon tag above 16d E side 14" Ash with Blaze. S 48 W 73.05' Set 60d & Remon tag above overgrown nail NW side 10" Dead White Birch. The section above with the "60d" nails is a list of witness marks placed to help re-find the corner if the main monument gets destroyed/lost. I didn't use the witness mark info from before the 2002 remonumentation, since the last known visit was in 1974. I also didn't search for the 4th of the witness marks, since that was some distance into the neighboring property and I didn't see any sign of the tree from the mark. Pictures of the mark below. I had a water bottle with me, so I poured a bit on the mark to make it more legible for the camera. According to a picture of the mark, the rebar found in 2002 and apparently placed in 1974 is inside the new monument.

While the age is totally different, there is at least one stone post with a USGS disk in it: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=KY0445 That said, my impression from the image is that what I was seeing was pavement rather then stone, and I'm thinking that if the stone post still exists it would be underneath that square of pavement. But I don't know for sure. There did not seem to be anything to indicate a datum point from the pictures, or even to indicate if it actually was the right spot. Way too far away for me to have any chance at finding out though. The other thing that is strange is the monumentation info. The stone post is USGS but the datasheet says MORC, which makes me wonder if MORC used an existing USGS stone post as a place to put a mark. (Kind of like how the Michigan Department of Transportation has placed a Height Modernization disk in the base of an MDOT run CORS station. (Curiously enough it has scaled coordinates that seem to be quite a bit off despite basically being attached to a GPS.) I've also seen an ACOE disk on an apparently USGS run river gaging station. (Said disk/station doesn't show up in ACOE's U-Smart database and may actually not be in use anymore, I don't know for sure.) And I still have no clue why the Missouri River Commission would be placing marks in Minnesota along the Mississippi river, so there are plenty of mysteries here.

The thing that is confusing is why there would be Missouri River Commission monumented marks with Mississippi River Commission stamping placed along the Mississippi river in Minnesota. But in retrospect maybe MORC didn't actually place the marks and were just the ones to first describe them/blue book them? Of the 12 MORC "monumented" marks in Minnesota only two of them have been reported as found on this site, one without pictures and one that apparently shows where the mark should be but is seemingly covered by pavement. I would have logged that last one as destroyed since there is apparently nothing there that would be useful in actual surveying, and it's also not all that clear if the actual mark was a stone post or survey disk, the original description says a stone post marked USGS but the Marker/Setting/Logo data all indicate a survey disk, stamped MRC and not MORC. Carlson Cap found in 2003, no pic: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=RN0816 Prospect Park, the USGS stone post/MRC survey disk: http://www.geocaching.com/mark/details.aspx?PID=PP2586