teamwsmf

quote:Originally posted by AllenLacy: Or raw XML, I got several tools that could easily process XML. Yep, since XML is the lingua franca of data, and this stuff is data, I think an XML output would almost be a defualt. A little XML, a little perl, maybe a python object or two...yep things can get mightyusefull fast. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by infosponge: All most of us ever wanted/needed was a "low chrome" version of the pages...no ads, no graphics, no table formatting...basically just text. This downloads nicely into a Palm or other handheld using tools like Plucker. Perhaps that's why you're sensing the frustration...all we were asking for was a dumbed-down version of the existing pages, for our dumbed-down devices. I think thats part of the fustration, but for me at least the fustration is there is already a really cool solution ( http://www.pathetique.com/geocaching/ ) that works with minimal inpact on geocaching.com while getting lots of folks the stuff on thier palms. I know Jermey and crew are working on the brand new jimmys and its going to rock, but other solutions that dont adversly impact the main source should not be shooed aside. Its also, as you say, fustrating when you can come up with a good idea and only get greif for it. Anyway, I hope all goes well with the .net centralized solution. As a charter memeber I look forward to giving it a whirl. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by infosponge: I have my own web site scripts in PHP that extract the data into a nicely reduced form for Plucker to use. I had this script publicly available for a while, but then it was blocked. Would the code for this be available somewhere? Id love tobe able to mine my own..and plucker I love to pieces. quote:Originally posted by infosponge: but I'm sure my unix / open source guru skills won't be very handy with the Windows / .NET infrastructure here. Be glad to do whatever I can though...even if it's just alpha testing. Same here. Windows/.net is such a great way to limit the talent pool. Hopefully the .net python hooks will get better and we can help out. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by infosponge: I have my own web site scripts in PHP that extract the data into a nicely reduced form for Plucker to use. I had this script publicly available for a while, but then it was blocked. Would the code for this be available somewhere? Id love tobe able to mine my own..and plucker I love to pieces. quote:Originally posted by infosponge: but I'm sure my unix / open source guru skills won't be very handy with the Windows / .NET infrastructure here. Be glad to do whatever I can though...even if it's just alpha testing. Same here. Windows/.net is such a great way to limit the talent pool. Hopefully the .net python hooks will get better and we can help out. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: The real value of geocaching.com, to the casual cacher, is that it puts all of those caches in the same place and wraps a nice search engine around them. Go try to find the closest ten waypoints to your current location over at waypoint.org, for example, and then reflect on how easy it is to do the same thing with geocaches. I don't care how nice or not-nice it looks if I can't find it. Yes, but where did that data come from ? Did geocaching.com create it? The idea under this is VALUE ADDED SERVICE, the added serivce is what I am paying Geocaching.com for. The DATA though they are using to Add Value to is not thiers exclusivley. And thats teh crux of the biscuit about using the data for use in other formats. Think of it this way...AOL users pay extra money to have a nice front end put on the internet for them. Thats great...but it does not mean, as much as they want it to, AOL owns the data on the internet that AOL users see. I pay money to use geocaching.com. I love the place. The data that I am seeing on the site though is not owned by geocaching.com anymore than phone numbers are by phone book manufacturers. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

The new channel restrictions (upped to 1000 from 8) make avantgo a nice tool for places like wired and cnn but pretty much usless for hot sites (more than 1000 users) that are not in the biz of paying Avantgo. I use Plucker to grab the great stuff over on http://www.pathetique.com/geocaching/ Its never failed me yet. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by nw climber: Sorry folks, but I do not think people are really using their noggins here. I think geocaching.com has a right to block people from stealing their data...their independent work Actualy geocaching.com does not make much of the data, they simply reformat waht the Users, thats me and you, put into it. You cant steal from geocaching.com what they dont own. This is not a matter of content creation as it is content reguritation. The real value of geocaching.com is in how cool it makes the data we put up look. Its so cool in fact I pay to use use it. They own the look and feel and the services they wrap around the data...not the data itself. The data itself, thats not geocaching.com's at all, its the property of those who put it up in the first place. This data can be used on many differnt sites and it is. The crux of the orignal biscut here was being able to easily get the data into a palm pilot. The question has been rendered moot for now in that there are several methods to get all the data you want from geocaching.com and hoover it up into your palm. Its a mobility problem not a legal ownership one cause geocaching.com no more owns most of the data here than the yellow page makers do phone numbers. Unless geocaching.com wants to start doing DMCA style litigation and loosing hordes of its users there is no real problem that innovation cant overcome. Jeremy himself is working on a .net solution whereas others have already crafted other methods. In the end though its all about geocaching, the act not the web site. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

A while back I posted about some folks using gps tracings to make "art". Perhaps benchmarking can be used in such a way...hit this then that then this then that...now look at your gps trace and you got the mona lisa.. Some great examples of this can be found over at http://www.gpsdrawing.com/ ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org [This message was edited by TeamWSMF on May 15, 2002 at 03:08 PM.]

quote:Originally posted by Orange: Okay, I may try this but frankly I don't get the appeal. Looking at some near me I have a good idea where they are. Near the railroad station, on top of the hill, along the railroad tracks. If you look at stuff like Geodashing and even MinuteWar you will see a nice sized group of folks into hitting marks either for the sake of hitting marks or for reaching a goal of a game. I myself dont much care for geodashing but loved minute war evolution 1. I still dig geocaching proper the best though. I think the benchmarking will probably be used for things yet unthought of ...in fact I could well see a Minute War type game comming of it. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by ClayJar:Actually, the fact that the general public can agree to what is, in effect, a license to use the data without cost *does not* place the collection of data in the public domain. Now, here is another question. Can I flag any data I place here as being in the "public domain" and thus useable by anyone who wants it? This is pretty much the only way I want my data to be used. Im not asking Groundspeak Corp to be hammered by dataminers (and there are real and proven ways they could offer up the whole of the sites data without being hammered), just that if someone wants to use my data they can. Copyright laws in the US are extremly F*d up. I do not want to participate anymore than I need in locking up data that can and should be in the public domain. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

I know this is not a popular question to ask, but seeing has the answer will determine the participation of a few folks here I was thinking maybe just a word or two from the powers that be would be appropriate. Is the data able to be manipulated for personal non profit use or not? ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

ODBC drivers are the best of times and the worst of times of data transferance:)- Some of the better wrtiiten onces work nice enough on a certian scale, most them work like 5 pounds of pewp in a 10 pound sack when the load rises above the causal use level. Some things to think about. Taking the entry and reporting functions and spliting them up. Doing the reporting from a seperate warehouse can often spread the load out by being able to build screens/views of common querys. Also cutting it away from the entry means your not hitting on the DB comming and going. Another thing to consider is the engine your using to drive it all. M$sql is a tad better than MSAccess, but both can be a pain. I have used MySQL on occasion for semilarge traffic but it has some flaws. So far I have to say this site has held up really well. The glitches that do occur seem less tefchincal problems and more just plain growing pain problems. The tech will grow to fix that. Aint datadriven work fun?- -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

ODBC drivers are the best of times and the worst of times of data transferance- Some of the better wrtiiten onces work nice enough on a certian scale, most them work like 5 pounds of pewp in a 10 pound sack when the load rises above the causal use level. Some things to think about. Taking the entry and reporting functions and spliting them up. Doing the reporting from a seperate warehouse can often spread the load out by being able to build screens/views of common querys. Also cutting it away from the entry means your not hitting on the DB comming and going. Another thing to consider is the engine your using to drive it all. M$sql is a tad better than MSAccess, but both can be a pain. I have used MySQL on occasion for semilarge traffic but it has some flaws. So far I have to say this site has held up really well. The glitches that do occur seem less tefchincal problems and more just plain growing pain problems. The tech will grow to fix that. Aint datadriven work fun?- -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

PLucker has a really good way of doing with. Its Open Source so you can go through its code and find out who it so bueatifully captures HTML and makes em into palm files. Since its in Python you should have very little trouble rendering it into VB. In fact if your using .NET there might already be a python module that can do it for you. At the very least talk to the Plucker guys, they really did it up right as well as unobtrusive. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

PLucker has a really good way of doing with. Its Open Source so you can go through its code and find out who it so bueatifully captures HTML and makes em into palm files. Since its in Python you should have very little trouble rendering it into VB. In fact if your using .NET there might already be a python module that can do it for you. At the very least talk to the Plucker guys, they really did it up right as well as unobtrusive. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: "Keep getting" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd say. As far as I know, I'm the only one who mentioned it, and only once. Geocaching.com is not the only place I have had a discusion about this issue. The general concensus is that yes the Terms are legal shields to prevent someone from hauling off with the entire site and making an Idiots Guide To Geocaching.com and hitting the $$wave in the bookstores. But as it stands it also acts to deter/hamper creative methods to use the data like the cool palmable data dumps many of us use. From all I have read and gotten from the convos in the long term the best of both worlds would be a user license to allow use of the data for non profitable endevours but still keep folks from making bank with it. Not a full copyleft but not a full copywrong license either. The .net stuff sounds great. I have been dealing iwth it some at work. It can be a very cool tool and it is gaining tools from third partys to make it not so MS centric. The key to keeping things away fromthe worst of the MS junk is not tieing it down with the "easy" MS solutions. For instance.. Passport:)- I wouldnt touch it with someones elses 10 foot poll. But some folks will, then again some people watch Freinds religioulsy. It takes all kinds, the trick is finding a way so one kind does nto have to compromise thier belifes to deal with the other kinds. MS is great for forcing..er...making it easier.. for folks to play the Conform-or-Get-Cut-Out game. .Net can be used that way, but it does not have to. Its a tricky road, mind the user freindly landmines. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Warm Fuzzies - Fuzzy: "Keep getting" is a bit of an overstatement, I'd say. As far as I know, I'm the only one who mentioned it, and only once. Geocaching.com is not the only place I have had a discusion about this issue. The general concensus is that yes the Terms are legal shields to prevent someone from hauling off with the entire site and making an Idiots Guide To Geocaching.com and hitting the $$wave in the bookstores. But as it stands it also acts to deter/hamper creative methods to use the data like the cool palmable data dumps many of us use. From all I have read and gotten from the convos in the long term the best of both worlds would be a user license to allow use of the data for non profitable endevours but still keep folks from making bank with it. Not a full copyleft but not a full copywrong license either. The .net stuff sounds great. I have been dealing iwth it some at work. It can be a very cool tool and it is gaining tools from third partys to make it not so MS centric. The key to keeping things away fromthe worst of the MS junk is not tieing it down with the "easy" MS solutions. For instance.. Passport- I wouldnt touch it with someones elses 10 foot poll. But some folks will, then again some people watch Freinds religioulsy. It takes all kinds, the trick is finding a way so one kind does nto have to compromise thier belifes to deal with the other kinds. MS is great for forcing..er...making it easier.. for folks to play the Conform-or-Get-Cut-Out game. .Net can be used that way, but it does not have to. Its a tricky road, mind the user freindly landmines. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

A response from JI was posted over in the other Palmable thread. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:We're moving to .Net, working on a palmable eBook format for geocaches (both PocketPC and Palm/Handspring), and upgrading our format of XML to the GPX format Dan at Topografix has been working on. This sounds great. .Net has some cool features and is robust enough for the traffic we are getting here. It also has the means to easily make the data stream avialble for folks who are more comfortable with rolling their own without messing up the traffic or infrastructure. Now the big question is, are we goin to get tossed in the DMCA clink for using the data? I keep getting quoted the Terms of Use clauses by users who point out that it is a point of concern. -tomwsmf ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

There have been threads going on about the use and reuse of the data we , thats you and me, have put into this site. One thing that keeps comming up is the Terms Of Use. In these Use Terms its pretty clear that Geocaching.com OWNS and CONTROLS anything we post here. As its written its even a no no to print the data out and pass it on to another geocacher. In an era where Open Data projects flourish does it make sense to further put into a system that is not going to let us do something as simple as put that data on our palm devices? I love this site, I was became a charter memeber as soon as the form was put up, I even dontated money on top of that. I also see the type of constriction that is going on with legal wrangligns like the DMCA, the Bono Laws and the SCCCA, not to mention the new Broadband bill thats going to make it a crime to copy any data to anyother device. I do not think it would benifit Groundspeak or Geocaching.com to take part in a system that seeks to contrict, constrain and control its users, the very users who are putting int he data that makes this site even worth using. I would really like to see this issue cleared up before I make any further plans on using and adding to this site. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

There are so many solutions to the problem the question is not "whats the offical word" but is more "what suits my needs best" If an offical PDA soltion becomes available I will look at it then. But for now I am able to get all the data I want and need right onto my Palm. The only thing that would make this solution not works is if DELIBERATE actions were taken to stop it. In that case I or someone wlse would code ANOTHER solution around whatever blockaes where in place. I think what we Really need is a list or a page somewhere that lists all the cool solutions, who maintains them, and what platforms (palm,ce,etc) they work for. ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by Bear & Ting: ....about mirroring or copying the data off of the server. I am a subscriber, why should someone who has not paid get something for free when I paid for it? The data belongs to Groundspeak, yes? I did not put data into this system to be OWNED by anyone person or company. I put data in this system to SHARE FREELY with other people. I also did not become a subscriber to block this information from others. Aside from MOs, which I dont use, cache information is available to everyuone who comes to this site. This open availability is the thing that has made this site grow to become what it is. If this is going to change Id like to know. In this era of infromation technoloy we live in it is a hard thing to image why palm or ce grabable pages are not either supported or offered. Heck the solution I use doesnt even require Geocaching.com to do anything at all, the guy who makes up the Palm files does all the parsing himself. So wheres the freaking beef? I dont know why the issue of viewing the data here in differnt formats has gone unanswered. I hope its because there is a slution being worked on that will allow folks to see the data in ways they find usefull. Until such time as we have an offical word I continue to use the solutions that work for me. And work it does. -tom ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

Congrats on the new geocacher. As soon as our kid is born (23 weeeks and counting) we can have a BabyCache event- "took fresh binky, left pewpy diaper" ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

Congrats on the new geocacher. As soon as our kid is born (23 weeeks and counting) we can have a BabyCache event:)- "took fresh binky, left pewpy diaper" ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org

quote:Originally posted by oregone: Hey, this is fun. I just tried to post to this forum but i got flagged. i would describe my post, but then this post wouldn't be displayed. Hmm , dont tell me we got built in censor type filters. There is a court case going on trying to free the library system of this type of junk. Dont forget there are more F*n ways to talk shiz than the folks who ferkin filter can deal with. They may be able to filter words but not the ideas. So get forking orginal folks, it doesnt take an much. Try posting only in 3/3+3 +/-/@+ //!/_/_ +/-//~// +|-|3 |=!/_+3/~5 /=|_|[|< 5/-/!+ etcetc +()// ---------------------------- TeamWSMF@wsmf.org