hal-an-tow

Yes ! I'd forgotten a similar question about cache type listing for a private audience had been asked and answered with a Wherigo flavoured response a short time ago : this thread is one to look at if you've not already found it. An extra flourish you might like to incorporate in your puzzle would be QR codes, they are cross platform so no problem with i thing vs android, and there are loads of free creator sites. You could embed short messages in them to be found and scanned along the way . Just an aside, but you are going to be learning a lot of interesting new skills doing this : if you enjoy the process, how about employing your new found knowledge and tricks to set a really good public cache after your private ones have served their purpose ? It would be a nice gesture of thanks to the caching community for helping you out a bit with this. Shame I'm on the wrong continent to go look for it though !

A reasonable inquiry, obviously those of us answering here are only Groundspeak database users, not employees (but who knows, an actual authoritative voice could chip in at any moment ... ) so what we say is opinions and speculation. I'd suggest that it is simply a matter of the system not being set up for the sort of thing you are imagining, as from the start of the game the whole idea has been to make cache listings available to signed up cachers. Except of course, some caches are not entirelypublic, i.e. for paying customers only . However, saying that private caches are not allowed is not true : those shiny new 'Adventure Lab Caches ' have precisely that facility, as somone said on a thread about them. Their creators have three options: Off, Private (shareable by link, but not visible on the app) and Public . So apparently the open to all cachers , community principles are actually easily discarded. The things are only being tested by a few folk at the moment, but who is to say what the future holds ? Maybe one day an in-app payment will get you your very own ALC to set , perhaps with a private ALC costing a little extra as it will not increase the opportunities for many other app users to play, and therefore will not earn Groundspeak as much from advert views. Meanwhile, as the A Team said, don't confuse Geocaching.com with geocaching: you can set your private caches without having them listed here, just create a webpage, share it via a website of your own, convert a text based document to a PDF and e-mail it to the recipient, or just print the thing out. Heck, go old school and draw a puzzle treasure map with paint pens and pencil if you want. Then once your family have solved their puzzles there are plenty of free apps which will simply navigate to a set of co-ordinates, you don't even need a caching specific app.

Why would they ? Use of the Groundspeak app is a revenue stream for Groundspeak. Giving third party apps a way into the workings of the ALC would undoubtedly compromise that third point :

I think the distinction would be that thrashing involves a stick or cane ...

I think it would be impossible to make it objective . If the CO is responsible for the rating, I doubt many will admit their baby is ugly , apart of course from those wanting to attract people who 'need' to fill in a particular box on their scenery/elaboration grid ... You know that would inevitably become yet another 'thing' . Yep, nothing beats thorough research, using cache listing, logs and maps . Last night I was looking at an area beyond my usual range which I hope to visit soon, and one puzzle listing I was looking at to decide if I should spend time trying to solve it, had the following text in the description: " PLEASE NOTE THE DISABLED ATTRIBUTE IS FOR THE PUZZLE " Eh ?! So you can access the puzzle whilst sitting down ? But by implicaton, not the cache ? Interestingly there was another major ambiguity in the puzzle itself, which I wasn't sure about: was it deliberate misdirection or just lack of rigour ? I have no idea. Anyway I solved it expecting the final to involve a country walk, but see it is a roadside hide, so probably is accessible, but still ... My point is, whatever information the CO chooses to put on the cache page may be thoughtfully accurate, or accidentally inaccurate, or even down right intentional misinformation for some purpose ( "Well friends, you asked for a grid filler cache for this D/T combo , and here it is !" ) . If you read the cache logs , and folk have bothered to write proper ones, you may get an idea of if the reality of the cache lives up to the listing ( " That single step up seemed a rather easy tree climb for a T4 ...") I'm not suggesting that logs should have a rating on them for scenery etc (altho' I know this is is something which is being tried out) but I would use it as one of the reasons why writing a proper individual log for any cache which is not utterly mundane is important. So to my mind, a better way to indicate the positive qualities of a cache would be to somehow encourage folk to write proper logs. I dunno, maybe run a promotion where a C.O. nominates a single log from each listing they have (maybe with a top limit of 10 listngs for those with a lot of caches out there. Logs only count if made before the promotion is announced to avoid folk gaming the system) That great log gets a star , shows prominently in the app to encourage newbies to follow the good example, and the cacher who wrote the log gets a souvenir .The nominated logs go into a draw for trackable codes . Cheap to run, makes the C.O. central to the process ( usually promotions focus on finders, but it is lack of new caches that will be groundspeaks next problem according to project GC stats so something to encourage C.O.s would be wiise ) and if anyone unfairly favours a poor log from a friend over a better one from a stranger their manipulation would be visible to all. Imply it might be an annual promotion, and see what effect it may have on logs in the next year.

Further experimentation has the main Wherigo foundation page opening fine, but the invalid certificate dialogue box popped up when I attempted to go from there to kit. I've done a little research and it seems like this is a common problem : security certificate /site name mismatcht has happened plenty of times over several years for many websites ! I was reassured by this, and that the 'azurewebsites' is not malicious, so made firefox give Wherigo kit an exception so I could open it. The site is fine as far as I can see, the builder works, no problem authorising it with Groundspeak api . Mind you, I'm not an expert, so exercise caution until someone who actually understands what they are doing comes along. !

I've attempted to navigate to Wherigo kiit to check what's going on, and firefox stops me with this warning message: "Wherigo.rangerfox.com uses an invalid security certificate. The certificate is only valid for the following names: *.azurewebsites.net, *.scm.azurewebsites.net, *.azure-mobile.net, *.scm.azure-mobile.net, *.sso.azurewebsites.net Error code: SSL_ERROR_BAD_CERT_DOMAIN"

I'm wondering if the OP maybe means pocket queries ?

A reasonable point, with which I agree. But ... my suspicion is that the shift to the CO having no control over the logging for these caches has been made with the intention of cutting out the whole appeal and dispute resolution thing. It takes staff time, it therefore costs money, plus it cannot be a pleasant and sought after occupation for any volunteers. Having no log deletion mechanism at all makes groundspeaks job easier. That it makes the cheats job easier is just one of those unintended consequences it seems no one at HQ anticipated, or perhaps they thought it simply wouldn't matter to anyone. It does matter to owners though, as we can see from the messages some have posted here.

"Threatened" is a strange choice of words , I do not feel threatened by caches of any kind, but would invite any other contributor who feels threatened by lab caches to mention it here so we can reassure them .... The whole point and principle of geocaching is to be there, where the cache is, what was the phrase Groundspeak used a while back ? "The language of location" ? A type of cache which has a giant loophole allowing hundreds of people to not be there but still 'find' it is a nonsense. Imagining some sort of magical handwavium will foerever heal that loophole is vastly underestimating the technical expertise and group will of people who enjoy the sort of mildly subversive problem solving involved here . Subverting the spirit of geocaching whilst staying within a strict interpretation of the guidelines just adds a little extra frission to their fun. I know people like that, smart, well paid computer people, engineers, problem solvers. The ones I count as friends who are also cachers get involved with solving puzzles rather than hacking ALCs I'm happy to say. I can appreciate that an event like a mega can benefit from a limited number of lab cache style temporary virtuals near the venue to entertain and engage attendees whilst not creating a maintenance or log verifying problem for the organisers (who may be from some way away), but apart from that specific unusual case, a straightforward virtual cache or Wherigo does exactly what an adventure lab cache does, and without needing another app. Maybe that's the reason for these AVCs, the bottom line ... enlighten me, are there adverts in the app. ?

Or - revolutionary thought here - have a container of some kind with a log book to sign ....

The more I think about these adventure lab caches, their implementation , lack of a physical container, owner limitations (surely those who make them and set them free in the world with so little subsequent control would be better named setters or creators ?) and their ability to be logged by any tech savvy person in the world (or any person who is a member of a facebook group with at least one tech savvy person .... ) the more I think , this is not geocaching as I understand it. Yes, I know earthcaches, virtuals, webcams ... but they have owners with responsibility for them, owners who invest time and effort in checking the online logs, deleting bogus ones, reading the answers sent to them. Groundspeak maintains a database, and uses volunteers to run a lot of the administrative tasks associated with that database. If they are going to step in and actually police the logging of adventure lab caches themselves, how will they do that ? Employ extra staff , recruit more volunteers , come up with an algorithm (that'll be fun ... ) No, I can't see any of that happening. How about making the app secure then ? That's a comical idea, hugely underestimating the enjoyment people with a particular mindset have. To imagine that a few developers at Groundspeak will ever be able to come up with an app which will not have its safeguards circumvented by the very many folk who see a supposedly secure system to validate location as an enjoyable challenge to their skills. I don't know how invested Groundspeak are in this adventure lab cache idea, but it looks to me like a laboratory experiment which has shown the idea has major flaws.

I read that and was about to post a rather annoyed response, but then thought maybe arisoft has used the phrase "who cares" in a different way to the colloquial useage : saying "who cares ? " in the UK implies a dismissive "nobody, including me, cares at all " . I suspect it may be used similarly in the US. I'm hoping it was more of a rhetorical question , implying Groundspeak will not care about those logs

I said that Ranger Fox was the man to ask

So, are you saying that someone who does not live close enough to a location to publish a new cache at it (because the reviewer would disallow it as a vacation cache) should be able to adopt a cache there, which they have no intention of visiting to maintain as it is too far away from home ?! Will maintenance be performed in the form of throwdowns by folk making the long arduous pilgrimage to this isolated GZ , and feeling they deserve a find once they make the effort to get there ? Would that actually be an old cache ? It all seems rather a strange idea to me.

I'm staring into my crystal ball, and seeing some of my local C.O.s ( the ones who rejoice in placing random suburban micros for the FTF/streak/numbers crowd then archiving rather than maintaining them when issues occur and just publishing another ditto ) rejoicing at the thought of conveniently self destructing , time limited micros. Oh dear,. how depressing.

Good point, I should have mentioned that possiibility ! Sevaral other smaller cache sites do exist, although Groundspeak would be annoyed for us to name and therefore advertise them on their' forums ... try a web search. Some of those other listing sites have a marker on their cache page for cross listed or exclusive caches, so you know if it is also on another site. Groundspeak don't, presumably because again , letting folk know other listing sites are available might be bad for the bottom line.

The thing is, Groundspeak are nothing more than a listing service: the caches do not belong to them, so they cannot legally transfer ownership unless the owner requests them to . The cache setter owns, and is responsible for, the cache. Groundspeak own , and are are responsible for, the database. I'm no lawyer, but I'd speculate that intellectual property (i.e. a virtual caches listing idea, pictures and wording) might be argued as similarly seen as the property of the C.O. If a physical cache is abandoned and archived, and you think the location merits a cache, what's to stop you making a new listing for a new container you place in that good spot ? You can recover the old archived container and post a note on its cache page, and send the CO a message offering their container back if they care to get in contact, say in the next month, after which you will bin or re-use it.

Aweek after the date of the 'find' this log pops up " Found it After a fruitless search where possible in a very overgrown hedgerow we decided (after reading the previous logs and noted that it hadn't been found for such a long time) to place a new container slightly closer to the path to make it more accessible. Will contact CO with details. TFTC "

Nicely put, and I completely agree . The cache owner sets a cache for you to have a specific experience. If you somehow circumvent that experience you are not following the spirit of the cache, or giving the owner due respect. Not keeping sight of this might be the reason for the marked decline in new caches we have seen over the last year in the UK, it certainly has caused several setters I know personally to give up hiding new ones. The problem is that the spirit of the game is something that comes from the thinking individual considering their own values alongside knowing the mores of their community .If you don't give it any thought, or your community ( perhaps a facebook group with a focus on streaks/grid filling/numbers for high status) seems authoritative and has a skewed view, it's likely you will accept the idea that as long as you followed the rules, who cares about the spirit. Doubly problematic with these adventure lab caches, as it seems they have a creator rather than an owner, with no ability to archive logs which may be within the rules but are utterly against the spirit of the game. Yes, no-one is truly hurt by a spurious log, but if creating one of these new caches is inviting hundreds of such logs, as reported by Ahem Clan earlier in this thread, why bother taking the time and effort to create a really good one that leads folk (in theory) to beautiful or interesting places ? To imagine that retiring a web option will stop that activity against the spirit of caching is to hugely underestimate the effort some people will take to subvert the game . 'Phone locations can be spoofed, passwords can be passed around, apps can be built, whole websites can (and will) be dedicated to getting around the problem of having to go and do the cache yourself. Until by some miracle people stop asking themselves 'Can I?' (that's the rules) without following it up with 'Should I?'(that's the spirit) . The only way to keep the spirit at least partly alive is to have a physical container at the end with a log to sign, and a C.O. with control over it who can remove the most egregious online logs if they wish .. All in all, better to just build a Wherigo. Excuse me, I have an idea , must go out and take my GPS for a walk round a local park ...

You're thinking unlisted event because of the rule against having an event to meet and go caching ? How about making it a CITO ? Divide the trails into sections, send attendees out to pick their assigned section up. Post in the listing that the erstwhile C.O. is welcome to come along and take the collected bags away at the end if they wish. If Groundspeak won't allow it as a CITO, and deny that picking up our own games abandoned trash is a suitable occasion to bring folk together for an event , I despair . Edited to say, this would be different to the example cited above, that was a straightforward event . This is not bring along an archived cache, but organise to go out and recover ( not 'find') bagfuls of archived cache trash. If cachers find this unattractive because they can't get a smiley for each and every bit of rubbish they pick up at the cito, then I'm despairing all over again.

Looking at the C.O. profile, I read this: " We are now the world record holder of the most hides ... " There you go, it really is (or was ) all about the numbers . I've seen similar boasts on a more local basis, which just have me thinking yep, you are the "top hider" of neglected unmaintained micros .Well done

As is so often the case, there is a rather neat GSAK macro which deals with the problem . Copy Earthcache requiremenst to user notes, here It looks for key phrases that probably start the logging task text, and places what it finds in a note (editable like any GSAK note) , which will show up as the most recent log in a GPS. Sometimes it finds no key words, sometimes it puts too much irrelevant text in the note, but you can run it on every earthcache in your database in seconds and see how many ECs get automatic notes added, then edit them or add missed ones by copy/pasting to a note . I love GSAK.

Heh ! I (not at all fondly) recall the cache jammed between the X shaped wooden ties which reinforced a solid footbridge over a stream. The X was only visible once you slid down into the stream , got under the structure and looked up, immediately seeing the cache in front of you . The hint , of course, was 'X marks the spot' , only understandable after you found the thing.

Arrived at GZ, searched for a bit, read hint which said "about six feet" so I looked around at that height. The hawthorn hedge had been cut recently (it is a common winter farming job round here, hedging and ditching to maintain the boundaries when due to the season other work is lacking )and there wasn't anything left at 6' . Oh dear. But there was a concrete drain cover surround nearly level with the ground near by, so I felt around there before leaving, and there was the cache . Apparently the hint reader was supposed to supply a final word to make the hint read 'about six feet UNDER'