Team GeoBlast

It's nothing specific with your viewpoint, but there is a reason I am asking you instead of the others and you should take that as a complement. I think that you will agree that these threads all seem to follow a very similar pattern. This particular one is no exception in that at some point they become a food fight, a dog pile, and a pissing contest. This continues until a moderator comes along and says enough. I'm going to take a wild stab that this type of interaction might be as unique in your world outside of this forum as it is in mine? I guess my point is this. At some juncture in these threads we all stop listening to each other and the interaction becomes something that doesn't belong in a hobby forum. I believe it becomes counter productive to the point of being damaging to the hobby. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone as I am just as guilty as the next. If we can agree that we are all just passionate (perhaps more than most) about Geocaching and overall good well intended people, I think what drives all of us to participate in that level of discussion is something we should keep under the microscope. I'll take your handshake gladly and hope you'll understand I take none of this personally either. I'll now do what I should have done two pages ago and move on.

::Warning this is OT:: I agree with this but I'll just add to it by saying that one thing that has not changed is that single most important aspect of Geocaching is the hide. Without it, you can't play. It is at the core of what we do as Geocachers. I don't go back far enough to remember this I'm interested when you describe the "joy" when you first found a micro. Good or bad, this was a change or an innovation depending on where you stand on it and I can't say that Geocaching has changed to that degree since I started. Is this the last major innovation we will ever see in Geocaching? Or does the game even need more innovation might be a fair question. I'm interested in what you think about this having been around when micros were new and how you reacted to the change. Is this because you don't think that people need it or do you feel like it is should be asked for and not offered? I can definitely say that my stance has "softened" or my understanding increased when it comes to certain types of hides. The strong support from a few small pockets in this forum for certain types of hides was probably the single biggest surprise when I first started posting here. While I feel very fortunate that I live on an island where we have 600+ geocaches and limited space. I think our situation might only be possible on an island. This is nothing that is openly promoted but it is understood that player have a great reverence and respect for the space they are occupying when they place a cache. That's cool! I come from a family of magicians. My grandfather performed professionally in shows in Chicago and Los Angeles in the 40's and 50's. He passed his act down to my father and he entertained myself and my friends as an amateur whenever we could talk him into it. I'm proud to say that I am perform my Grandfather's act in it's entirely almost 60 years later. And I know what you mean, after all those years, people are still amazed at the same illusions that people were 50-60 years ago. But you know what? I get bored just as my father did with the same act and I constantly look for new tricks to supplement the original act. That way, I can entertain the same audience more than one time. I think you might see where I am going with this as it relates to Geocaching. Is it reasonable to think that we can keep amazing people with the same tricks until the end of time? I honestly don't know the answer to that but I do think it has worked so far. Geocaching is a great hobby. With that said, I think it is important to watch the audience carefully. When the applause turns into a golf clap, it might be time to shake things up again.

While I appreciate your attempt to pick a fight – you might even say I am flattered – I’m sorry to say I am not really interested in walking into such a pointless trap. If you will survey the content of my posts instead of simply counting them you will see that my "energy" has been put into expressing my own viewpoint, not attacking yours. My posts have been generally first-person, not second or third. Any offense you have taken has therefore been due to your own discomfort. I have not represented myself as an authority on what is going on inside your head. I am only an authority on my own opinion. If you want your opinion analyzed, you’ll need to do that yourself. If I merely say that I am tolerant of other cachers’ preferences; that in my opinion any guideline-compliant cache is better than no cache at all; that I think 'lame' is a subjective judgment, and that it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard ... ... If I say all those things about myself and nothing about you, yet you feel my expressions of caching tolerance and "to each his own" thinking are somehow a direct attack against your own agenda, then that is your business, not mine. If you have a specific problem with something particular I have stated about my point of view, then let’s hear it. I have no objection to open-mindedly considering your honest criticisms of my thinking. If you can convince me to shed an erroneous viewpoint in exchange for something more reasonable that I haven’t previously considered, I welcome the help. If you’re just feeling vaguely defensive or insecure after reading my expression of my own viewpoint, however, then maybe the ambiguity lies not between the two of us, but within your own subconscious uncertainty. It's really none of my business – other than to the extent you keep trying to make it my business. Again: My only purpose in posting that post was to rebut your earlier claim that I am "anti-creativity." You now seem to have dropped that charge while also admitting that I have made my true position quite clear. Anyone reading our posts can therefore observe any opinion differences they may perceive between us and then make up their own minds with whom to agree. I therefore see nothing left to fight about. The last thing I am trying to do is a pick a fight. On the contrary, I'm trying to better understand this ongoing tiff that never seems to yield any progress in this forum. When you put your viewpoint out on creativity, I could really find very little to disagree with. I'm thinking to myself, this doesn't even appear to be the other side of the debate to me and it is not far off my own viewpoint in almost every respect. It got me thinking about why after over a thousand posts in here, why progress is so hard to come by. You mentioned earlier that perhaps the result is some better understanding not a win or a lose when it comes to these discussions. I'm being to wonder at some point, we all don't lose when the attempt to understand each other ceases. That is really all that was on my mind, at what point do we stop listening to each other and engage in a food fight as TG so eloquently described it. I said I was bored like two pages ago when you, Snoogans, Isbell, Mushtang, et al started to focus so intently on the minute details of my personal definition of a numbers hider. That level of a pack "discussion" is really never going to lead anywhere and at some point greater understanding takes a back seat to trying to get one over on the other poster. I usually don't like to participate when it gets to this stage of the discussion for a variety of reasons but mostly, I don't think much mutual understanding or even benefit is realized. I guess the only reason I am still here two pages later is to try to understand why things go so south sometimes.

If you are such a strong supporter of creativity then why can't you mind your own business and let people make creative suggestions? That is all I've been doing. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit. I love creative caches. I would always prefer a brilliantly inspired piece of original cleverness to something that gave me less of a smile, all things being equal. Given the choice between a bland hide and no cache at all, however, I’ll take the bland hide. It gives me something to do, I get to play with my GPS, it gets me outside, etc, etc. Most important is that I have a choice: Nobody makes me go after the bland hide. I am free to either seek it or to ignore it. Whenever I am impressed with a hide I leave a highly complimentary log ... but when I am less than impressed I say thank you anyway. That’s the same way I treat people in person. Each hide is a gift from a stranger. Why would I want to be so boorish as to insult a free experience nobody forced me to seek out in the first place? Yes, I enjoy the inspired ones much more than the lame ones. "Lame" is a subjective judgment, however, and it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard. To each his own. I hide the kinds of caches I like to hide, and I find the kinds of caches I like to find. I would never presume to suggest to another cacher that he do otherwise. Every person’s taste is unique. Everyone likes to be entertained and nobody prefers lameness, yet no cache is inherently lame to everyone. "Lame" is only in the eye of the Garminholder. There. I’ve stated my position (again). You two fine gentlemen may now resume ignoring my stated position (again), and start telling me (again) how much I despise creativity. Thanks, that's pretty clear to me but I will to admit to having a tough time pinpointing what we are debating now. Considering your stated viewpoint above, can you point out where we differ? Ultimately I think that only you can answer that question. If, as you say, you believe my description of my viewpoint was clear; if you believe your viewpoint differs meaningfully from mine; and if you want it to be publicly known exactly what those differences are ... then that’s your job. My only purpose in posting that post was to rebut your strange and groundless claim that I am anti-creativity. That is interesting because you've put quite a bit of energy into expressing that you don't like about mine and others viewpoints on creativity, numbers hiders, and so on. I'd estimate at least 20 posts by you alone (double if you add the henchmen) and a week in the bank so far. Since you've been representing yourself as an authority on what is going on inside our heads and used that knowledge to form such a strong opinion, I just thought that you would be able to buttet point for me how significantly differ in respect to your stated position above.

If you are such a strong supporter of creativity then why can't you mind your own business and let people make creative suggestions? That is all I've been doing. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit. I love creative caches. I would always prefer a brilliantly inspired piece of original cleverness to something that gave me less of a smile, all things being equal. Given the choice between a bland hide and no cache at all, however, I’ll take the bland hide. It gives me something to do, I get to play with my GPS, it gets me outside, etc, etc. Most important is that I have a choice: Nobody makes me go after the bland hide. I am free to either seek it or to ignore it. Whenever I am impressed with a hide I leave a highly complimentary log ... but when I am less than impressed I say thank you anyway. That’s the same way I treat people in person. Each hide is a gift from a stranger. Why would I want to be so boorish as to insult a free experience nobody forced me to seek out in the first place? Yes, I enjoy the inspired ones much more than the lame ones. "Lame" is a subjective judgment, however, and it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard. To each his own. I hide the kinds of caches I like to hide, and I find the kinds of caches I like to find. I would never presume to suggest to another cacher that he do otherwise. Every person’s taste is unique. Everyone likes to be entertained and nobody prefers lameness, yet no cache is inherently lame to everyone. "Lame" is only in the eye of the Garminholder. There. I’ve stated my position (again). You two fine gentlemen may now resume ignoring my stated position (again), and start telling me (again) how much I despise creativity. Thanks, that's pretty clear to me but I will to admit to having a tough time pinpointing what we are debating now. Considering your stated viewpoint above, can you point out where we differ? One of you ignores the hides of others and teh other of you doesn't??? Isn't that what this thread is about? Please do not answer for KBI. Thanks. One would expect KBI to be the one to get upset about someone answering for KBI. That being said, if your comment was meant solely for one specific person, it should have been made via PM. Okay, I will try to remember that next time. But I am glad we are clear that this doesn't have anything to do with you. This is a thread about geocaching in a geocaching forum. It has to do with all of us. Yes, everyone that is named KBI and TGB. Once again, you find yourself on a time out. It sounds like it is hard for you to accept but that is why time outs are given.

If you are such a strong supporter of creativity then why can't you mind your own business and let people make creative suggestions? That is all I've been doing. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit. I love creative caches. I would always prefer a brilliantly inspired piece of original cleverness to something that gave me less of a smile, all things being equal. Given the choice between a bland hide and no cache at all, however, I’ll take the bland hide. It gives me something to do, I get to play with my GPS, it gets me outside, etc, etc. Most important is that I have a choice: Nobody makes me go after the bland hide. I am free to either seek it or to ignore it. Whenever I am impressed with a hide I leave a highly complimentary log ... but when I am less than impressed I say thank you anyway. That’s the same way I treat people in person. Each hide is a gift from a stranger. Why would I want to be so boorish as to insult a free experience nobody forced me to seek out in the first place? Yes, I enjoy the inspired ones much more than the lame ones. "Lame" is a subjective judgment, however, and it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard. To each his own. I hide the kinds of caches I like to hide, and I find the kinds of caches I like to find. I would never presume to suggest to another cacher that he do otherwise. Every person’s taste is unique. Everyone likes to be entertained and nobody prefers lameness, yet no cache is inherently lame to everyone. "Lame" is only in the eye of the Garminholder. There. I’ve stated my position (again). You two fine gentlemen may now resume ignoring my stated position (again), and start telling me (again) how much I despise creativity. Thanks, that's pretty clear to me but I will to admit to having a tough time pinpointing what we are debating now. Considering your stated viewpoint above, can you point out where we differ? One of you ignores the hides of others and teh other of you doesn't??? Isn't that what this thread is about? Please do not answer for KBI. Thanks. One would expect KBI to be the one to get upset about someone answering for KBI. That being said, if your comment was meant solely for one specific person, it should have been made via PM. Okay, I will try to remember that next time. But I am glad we are clear that this doesn't have anything to do with you and I am not interested in your viewpoint on KBI's or my viewpoint.

If you are such a strong supporter of creativity then why can't you mind your own business and let people make creative suggestions? That is all I've been doing. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit. I love creative caches. I would always prefer a brilliantly inspired piece of original cleverness to something that gave me less of a smile, all things being equal. Given the choice between a bland hide and no cache at all, however, I’ll take the bland hide. It gives me something to do, I get to play with my GPS, it gets me outside, etc, etc. Most important is that I have a choice: Nobody makes me go after the bland hide. I am free to either seek it or to ignore it. Whenever I am impressed with a hide I leave a highly complimentary log ... but when I am less than impressed I say thank you anyway. That’s the same way I treat people in person. Each hide is a gift from a stranger. Why would I want to be so boorish as to insult a free experience nobody forced me to seek out in the first place? Yes, I enjoy the inspired ones much more than the lame ones. "Lame" is a subjective judgment, however, and it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard. To each his own. I hide the kinds of caches I like to hide, and I find the kinds of caches I like to find. I would never presume to suggest to another cacher that he do otherwise. Every person’s taste is unique. Everyone likes to be entertained and nobody prefers lameness, yet no cache is inherently lame to everyone. "Lame" is only in the eye of the Garminholder. There. I’ve stated my position (again). You two fine gentlemen may now resume ignoring my stated position (again), and start telling me (again) how much I despise creativity. Thanks, that's pretty clear to me but I will to admit to having a tough time pinpointing what we are debating now. Considering your stated viewpoint above, can you point out where we differ? One of you ignores the hides of others and teh other of you doesn't??? Isn't that what this thread is about? Please do not answer for KBI. Thanks.

I'm just curious as to the context or circumstances that your reviewer told you this?

If you are such a strong supporter of creativity then why can't you mind your own business and let people make creative suggestions? That is all I've been doing. I know this is going to surprise you. But you seem to be the best available example. It seems that any mention of creativity throws the you and your henchmen into a complete hissy fit. I love creative caches. I would always prefer a brilliantly inspired piece of original cleverness to something that gave me less of a smile, all things being equal. Given the choice between a bland hide and no cache at all, however, I’ll take the bland hide. It gives me something to do, I get to play with my GPS, it gets me outside, etc, etc. Most important is that I have a choice: Nobody makes me go after the bland hide. I am free to either seek it or to ignore it. Whenever I am impressed with a hide I leave a highly complimentary log ... but when I am less than impressed I say thank you anyway. That’s the same way I treat people in person. Each hide is a gift from a stranger. Why would I want to be so boorish as to insult a free experience nobody forced me to seek out in the first place? Yes, I enjoy the inspired ones much more than the lame ones. "Lame" is a subjective judgment, however, and it is therefore not my place to suggest to anyone else that they adopt my personal standard. To each his own. I hide the kinds of caches I like to hide, and I find the kinds of caches I like to find. I would never presume to suggest to another cacher that he do otherwise. Every person’s taste is unique. Everyone likes to be entertained and nobody prefers lameness, yet no cache is inherently lame to everyone. "Lame" is only in the eye of the Garminholder. There. I’ve stated my position (again). You two fine gentlemen may now resume ignoring my stated position (again), and start telling me (again) how much I despise creativity. Thanks, that's pretty clear to me but I will to admit to having a tough time pinpointing what we are debating now. Considering your stated viewpoint above, can you point out where we differ?

When you define creativity. You stiffle it. To get creative caches you have to allow the freedom for a person to place them. When you allow the freedom for creativity to blossom you are going to get all kinds of results. Considering that 99% of people don't read the forums, nobody is hindering the freedom for creativity to blossom. Well then at least we have futility on our side. It's only 80%, but I agree on the futility. TG, you can take over my henchman duties in the thread, if you like. Hey no slacking now.

That is a very legit question.

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it.I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else.I guess it bears revisiting the fact that you asked the question in the first place. A long time ago, you decided that you would make a career out of trolling me and you do it, unprovoked, at any opportunity you see. If you are not willing to stop doing that, I have no problem with it as you seem like you are pretty into your right to do anything you please. Just don't ask me to lift any labels I've put on you again. Deal? No. What are you talking about?This is a fairly good example of what I was talking about sbell111. You asked if I was going to give you the same respect ("remove my label") as I gave Jester for the years you have had a Geocaching account. This was YOUR question to me. Okay so far? I said I was ready to respect you at any time if you would stop trolling me, totally unprovoked. I don't think I have responded to you for several months. Got that much? Then you went on to day you refuse to lose your self respect (it's funny how that is tied in with trolling) in order to gain mine. Pretty simple thus far I'd say, no? I said, okay, go ahead and troll me if you feel that you need to but I am not removing the useless troll label until you stop trolling me for no reason except to add more angst to a conversation and insult me. I do not think there is anything in here that is so hard to understand but you felt you needed to ask me what I was talking about or in a nutshell continue trolling. It's funny how in your recap you act like the word "trolling" had been there all along. When I read Sbell's question asking you what you were talking about I too was curious where that came from. He wanted you to take away his Defender label based on something you'd said to someone else, and you wanted to make it about trolling. I guess I just "twisted your words" or something, but I'm not sure you can act all high and mighty when you're the only one out of the two of you that knew you were talking about trolling before you said it. I said I didn't need to say it, so I didn't. I've said it now so hopefully we are on the same page. There is a reason that I don't respond to either of you any more. Do you want me to say it again or was once enough?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it. I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else. I guess it bears revisiting the fact that you asked the question in the first place. A long time ago, you decided that you would make a career out of trolling me and you do it, unprovoked, at any opportunity you see. If you are not willing to stop doing that, I have no problem with it as you seem like you are pretty into your right to do anything you please. Just don't ask me to lift any labels I've put on you again. Deal? No. What are you talking about? This is a fairly good example of what I was talking about sbell111. You asked if I was going to give you the same respect ("remove my label") as I gave Jester for the years you have had a Geocaching account. This was YOUR question to me. Okay so far? I said I was ready to respect you at any time if you would stop trolling me, totally unprovoked. I don't think I have responded to you for several months. Got that much? Then you went on to day you refuse to lose your self respect (it's funny how that is tied in with trolling) in order to gain mine. Pretty simple thus far I'd say, no? I said, okay, go ahead and troll me if you feel that you need to but I am not removing the useless troll label until you stop trolling me for no reason except to add more angst to a conversation and insult me. I do not think there is anything in here that is so hard to understand but you felt you needed to ask me what I was talking about or in a nutshell continue trolling.

Did you throw carrot in there to see if we were paying attention? If so, I'd like to add that is a water-tight carrot with an o-ring seal.

Perhaps Rustic Scout is nervous because she sees all the angst in the forum about terrible cachers and lame hides. If she felt instead that people would accept her cache graciously she would go ahead an hide what she would like to find. I have inside knowledge that this is not the case. She was worried about her GPS being crappy and not having good coords. She is very new to the forums. I think words like terrible and lame should not be used. I don't use them. They are not nice.

The site would never do that. They've actually made it very clear as to what they will and will not do. This is a key issue with everyone. I want to go on record (KBI loves when I do that) as saying that not only is this something I would never support, it's impossible. So now that I am officially on the record as saying this, does it mean that I won't be accused of it again? If you believe the answer to this is absolutely yes, I've got some coords to an ice cave for ya.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry. No kidding... I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality.... I know that we like to dream also, but we prefer the good the snow scene dream! . You know what? KBI asked me a similar question earlier in this thread about my own viewpoint. I'll bite on this one. It's us. The common perception from the defenders is that we spend our time in here talking down at people and or their hides. The other issues are varied but I believe this to be at the core of their angst. I know you will say the same thing as I am going to here. I'm simply misunderstood as I don't feel this way at all. I'm just the kind of person that gets great satisfaction in seeing people be the best that they can be. In the case of hiding a geocache, I also feel this is something that doesn't just happen in some cases without some guidance. There's basic knowledge that is sometimes very hard to obtain and some of it is generally not intuitive. Then there's folks like Rustic Scout a few posts back that is so nervous about placing her first cache is it is almost unbearable to her. I believe that sharing experience and encouragement at this "defining moment" could truly produce another other great cache hider with the will to "be all that they can be." Here a geo-culture that will allow the game to prosper and evolve is important and in my mind necessary. It is also a great way to make friends. That's it really. I've never told anyone how to hide a cache before or have I ever spoken down to anyone. As for the caches, there's no denying that what is out there is out there. We've talked at length on how to manage the available data and figure out the best way to enjoy the game.

Double dribble. Heh... there's a slow pitch over the middle of the plate for somebody.

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry. No kidding... I was trying to figure out who these people are that 'insult and deride other cachers?' Who are these people 'who demand' that people playing the game 'change?' Do you have any idea TGB? I think someone is having a bad dream and thinking that their fictitious dream is reality.... Let's see, if we start at post one on this thread, we'd get all the way to post one before coming across such an instance. I could find plenty more in here, but there's really no point. Yeah, it is much more productive to continue being angry and producing enough angst to start WIV huh?

I'm prepared to start respecting you at any time. You know what you need to do to earn it. I don't even have to say it. I'm sorry, but I refuse to lose my self respect to gain the so-called respect of someone else. I guess it bears revisiting the fact that you asked the question in the first place. A long time ago, you decided that you would make a career out of trolling me and you do it, unprovoked, at any opportunity you see. If you are not willing to stop doing that, I have no problem with it as you seem like you are pretty into your right to do anything you please. Just don't ask me to lift any labels I've put on you again. Deal?

Boy oh boy, do you sound angry.

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now! Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii! http://kamfamily.files.wordpress.com/2008/...akala_snow2.jpg I stand corrected. The dream is back! The dream never left. Long live the dream!

LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now! Not to mention that it doesn't snow in Hawaii! http://kamfamily.files.wordpress.com/2008/...akala_snow2.jpg

1% of the people reading the forums would be 67,200,000 people... wow! You'd think there'd be more posts... hehehe Thousands of books get submitted to publishers every year and only a rare few make best sellers. You can't control what books are written, only what books you choose to read. That's the way freedom of creativity works. Same goes for caches.... out of the thousands that get submitted some will be less then par, but even less turn out to be best sellers. We cachers only have the right to pick what we search, not what's created. Innovative breakthroughs are driven by passion more than perspiration..... Standing O!

Unfortunately, that lamp post micro is too close for you to place your carrot nose. No snowshoe ice cave cache for you! LOL. You guys are killing me. Get out of my dream now!