4wheelin_fool

Daddy, Timmy's poking me. You two knock it off or I'll turn this car around. Or have everyone retreat to another forum. Another sad system failure.

Maybe this will serve as a form of shock therapy to smarten them up. I say if you make the electric fence known on the cache page then if anyone who gets a nasty surprise it's a case of caveat emptor. I think it sounds like a fun cache and I hope you get it published. We've had grizzled veterans in the forums admit they seek caches without even glancing at the cache page. The warning must be in the name, like "Danger! Beware!" or "Electrocution." It's more like this cache idea is half baked and so the cacher will be roasted. If they are getting virtual information, then they have to read the page. It's not a regular multi. I don't think anyone would get injured, the question is whether it will draw suspicion and whether the property manager would appreciate it.

I don't think that they are on the chart. So far a moderator has replied with an unhelpful, sarcastic reply which is better suited for their regular account.

Yes, it has permission but suddenly No Trespassing signs appear around the cache. Sounds like you should knock on the door and say hi.

So we are prohibited to question the reasoning behind unevenly applied guidelines? Or even talk about it? If you put up a dam, the water doesn't stop flowing, it just goes places that perhaps you may not intend or have control over. I spoke to the town manager on the phone of the city that the cache in the OP was published just yesterday. He stated that they don't want people nailing trees and that he doesn't have any idea who may have gave permission to do so. Since the permission was not mentioned on the page and the details are being kept secret, then we are all left wondering about it. I suppose I'll have to ask Groundspeak. None of this would be necessary if everyone was being transparent and on the level. http://www.richland.pa.us/contact.aspx 724-443-5921 Richland Township

How many? What on earth is wrong with the light poles that is causing droves of people to be killed by them? There's an unknown saboteur who works for Nashville public works, who is suspected in 110 "accidental" homicides by light pole electrocution. They don't know who it is, so anyone seen lifting a skirt is called in to the police who send out a 11-65 on the radio. A team of trained professionals swarm in and handcuff the miscreant, throw them to the ground, and determine whether he is simply fondling the pole, or actively rewiring it for sadistic purposes. Fondlers are fined and sent to the pokey.

The sticker may be a spoiler, or makes it easier to find. It also would expose the cache to non-geocachers, who historically tend to steal or destroy geocaches at a much higher rate than geocache players do.

How would NES (the local electric company) institute a fine if they saw me lifting a skirt? Also, I'm not aware of anyone being shocked by a light pole in the area. Do you have any links? It seems that if people being shocked by NES' poles is an issue, then NES should concentrate on fixing their poles. I'm having a difficult time imagining the public works department attempting to detain someone and contact the police because the bolt cover was lifted up on a lamppost, and subsequently explaining that the person should be fined because of possible negligence on the part of the same department, due to their failure to repair a short circuit, which may or may not exist.

Exactly. People should not deface the stickers, but contact the placer and ask them to stop. However it may not seem to be worth their time and effort, as a sticker doesn't have too much value, but that's what they should do. Leaving a munzee, letterbox, or geocache on top of another game piece without permission may be legal, but disrespectful. Once disrespect enters the equation, then all types of unknown and unwanted final quotients could occur.

This topic is about nails and screws... let´s not put the paint on it too... Yes, but the argument for nails is based on whether the tree is being hurt. It may be, or not be the case. Spray painting a tree doesn't hurt it either. Q: Why do geocachers place instructive stash notes in their hides? A: Because we expect muggles to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we rehide geocaches carefully and close them up? A: Because we expect other geocachers to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we not hide Geocache containers on top of Letterboxes and Munzees, or steal them? A: Because we expect others to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we not steal game cameras and hunting equipment? A: Because we expect others to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we not place geocaches on posted, private property? A: Because we expect others to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we not sign the outside of geocache containers with a Sharpie? A: Because we expect others to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Q: Why do we not deface trees with nails, and paint on stationary objects such as buildings and rock faces? A: Because we expect others to respect our property, as we would respect theirs. Seems pretty simple to understand. Respect is the glue holding everything together. Yes, I could urinate on your front lawn and it would probably not hurt anything either.

It seems that the cache mentioned in the OP should be a pretty straightforward archival. Reading the note carefully it doesn't really say for certain that it has explicit permission anyhow, but that possibly it is assumed. I'm aware of several caches which have been archived for being buried and for defacement, and despite having permission. There is no note on the page, and a hide anywhere under similar circumstances is certainly ripe for a NA log. By playing selective semantics, the reviewer is contributing to an environment in which both geocachers and land managers may feel uncomfortable.

I did not know that dude was ever a reviewer, but I know exactly what you're talking about!!! Yes, it's not just the bar code sticker game (note that Mr.Yuck has still not used the "M" word, for which he has been temporarily banned not once, but twice, from these forums for using, both times as a joke, he might add). This is a long standing issue with Letterboxes. And I do indeed remember at least two threads where militant Geocachers have stated they would remove Letterboxes if they were placed near their cache. No wonder most of them don't like us. Whoever is there first deserves the spot. Placing another game piece as an add on to someone else spot is disrespectful. The same goes for signing the outside of containers with a sharpie which is disrespectful.

Spray paint doesn't hurt a tree at all, yet it is not allowed for some odd reason either.

Well, if nobody posts their DNFs, then there is no way to determine it needs maintenance. With only your single DNF, there isn't way for anyone to determine that it is gone without any communication, as they don't melt over time.

Well, if a letterboxer hid a very nice lock and lock with a 300 page logbook and a hand carved stamp, and then someone drops a geocache pill container on top of it, I would expect the geocache to disappear. I'm not advocating theft in any way, I just wouldn't be surprised. The same goes with munzee stickers. There is a previous reviewer who has posted a story a few times in here, bragging about stealing a geocache, and I suppose it wouldn't take too much for some people to justify it. I recall the story as someone using a drill to deface objects around town for hides. He was told to stop, so he responded by hiding a regular cache in a dump site. The former reviewer stole the legal geocache and was happy to report that the placer disappeared after that. Incidentally the former reviewer also has a geocache under his front step and he has been puzzled over why it has been taken a few times. I don't think any munzee sticker should be defaced, but the reality is that it will happen and others will find a way to draw those circles.

+1 Thanks for writing this. I know this type of thing must happen a lot. It does unfortunately. Every nail hide that has permission will garner favorite points and inspire another ten which don't have any permission. Then after finding enough of them, someone will come to the conclusion that boring a hole in a redwood tree located in a National park is fine. If the line is drawn at defacement, then it should never go that far. But it does. I'm willing to bet that the park rangers don't know about that one. Once the damage is done, archival isn't enough to fix that. It has taken a lot of work to get National Park land managers to trust us, and I'm absolutely certain that they don't want any defacement, period. I don't think trading respect for creativity is very smart or wise. And if its not creative enough to leave no trace, what good is it? I see favorite points on these types of hides and for some reason it reminds me of a crackhead who gets their fix and doesn't care about anything else, or tomorrow.

Your summary contains a false statement (I never said "it was okay to do it") so your question is flawed. Therefore, I won't participate in your "discussion" Instead of simply explaining the circumstances, everyone is left to their imagination, and we are to guess the scenario. So far we have that the cache has explicit permission, so it won't be archived, but the reviewer seemed surprised and it's not "okay", with a legalistic, courtroom like final reply. Didn't know there was a trial going on here, just some unanswered questions. How about it has 12 favorite points but I'm not giving it it's 13th because it's a guideline violation? That'll show 'em. Even though I published it myself. Is that legalistic enough for you? BTW, the whole screwing things into live trees thing is totally overblown. But rules are rules. Or as they like to say around here in legalistic terms, guidelines are guidelines. I actually don't care much about the situation, but just wanted to clarify exactly what was happening. When someone becomes less than forthcoming about details it gives the impression that something is being hidden. I don't like playing guessing games, or using a NA log to get info. Many years ago I used small nails to hide a cache. I first tried small tacks, but they would not cooperate. It was a puzzle cache in which someone had to go to a specific location and find clues to go a certain distance and make the find. I placed several tree faces and used the eyes to indicate the direction, as well as the final location. I really didn't think the small nails would cause any issue as long as they were not removed, plus they were 10 feet up common scrawny pine trees. One cacher thought it was great! Then a week later he bored a large hole in an oak tree which was over 100 years old to hide a film can behind a tree face. It was one of the largest trees in that forest. When I told him I didn't think it was a good idea, he got a bit indignant and said it was "only a tree", and he owned a few hundred acres around here, so he didn't care what the township thought. I then thought my hide was a really bad idea, so eventually I archived it. Today there is a cacher nearby who apparently watches YouTube videos and has copied nearly every defacement cache idea out there. Now if the reviewer finds them and they stay active, how many more do you think will sprout? People are followers, and the favorite points only encourages it. Reviewer apathy goes a long way.

Your summary contains a false statement (I never said "it was okay to do it") so your question is flawed. Therefore, I won't participate in your "discussion" Instead of simply explaining the circumstances, everyone is left to their imagination, and we are to guess the scenario. So far we have that the cache has explicit permission, so it won't be archived, but the reviewer seemed surprised and it's not "okay", with a legalistic, courtroom like final reply. Didn't know there was a trial going on here, just some unanswered questions.

There was a cache near me just outside of a firehouse, which had explicit permission from the firefighters. It was pushed into a pile of mulch about 2 inches, but was archived when someone reported it. There doesn't seem to be much consistency at all.

So... have you reported it? Of course he reported it. That would be the right thing to do. No, he contends the park gave explicit permission for it, although seemingly surprised by it at the same time. This implies that the guidelines can be ignored under the right conditions.

I'd say its a bit creepy for someone to invite a parade of strangers onto someone else's property without their permission. Then when asked, the people who are on the property respond by saying that it's not their concern if the target object has permission. Let's see, you are on their property, but it's none of your business if it's okay? It sure sounds like avoiding responsibility for your own actions. If someone else is using the game to possibly annoy the property owner then it's the responsibility of the people playing the game to say something.

It depends. Is it commercial private property open to the public, such as a shopping mall? Vacant private property with or without posted signs? Occupied property with a house? If there is a house or signage then a NA might be appropriate, but not always.

About 8 years ago there was a cacher I knew who was trying to get as many finds as possible to get on a leaderboard, and he was being a little obnoxious about it. I watched him pull up to a LPC and try to get it by reaching out the window. Several bees came out and he shrieked as he took off quickly and his car scraped the post. I don't know, but I couldn't help laughing. Bees can be found at any cache, especially guardrail hides. Last year we got a report of bees near a paddle to I hid with someone getting stung several times. We went out there and didn't see any at all. We then cleared some debris out of the creek and inadvertently tossed the debris on their nest, which was just a hole in the ground. A bunch came after my girlfriend and she got stung several times. She had to submerge to get away from them, and lost her glasses. You just need to watch out.

Well, just report them to the police department. They should get right on it. Someone in NY called one in a few weeks ago. http://www.amherstbee.com/news/2014-06-18/Police_Blotter/Youths_toss_trash_items_at_area_geese.html

No, most people don't like that either, however you are the only one obsessed over it. I don't know what the motivation is to open a sock account and log a fake FTF on a geocache that has been published for over 10 years, but I suppose the person may have the same motivation that you do - to get it archived. How about waiting for a few DNFs to pile up first?