knowschad

As mentioned earlier in the thread and the post above this one keystone, climbing a tree/cliff is a decision a person can make. Taking a kayak out in rough weather is a decision a person can make. Hiking out into alpine terrain is a decision a person can make. Your average person you probably identify the material found at this cache as rubbish and pay no attention to it because many caches have rubbish near them, it is however a highly dangerous substance that leads to terrible suffering as your life comes to an end. The op identified a hazardous situation and it should have been archived for that reason, same as if searching for a caches leads to the photo above with the bare wires. I'm no environmental engineer, but I'm pretty certain that simply walking past a pile of material that contains asbestos once or twice is not likely to be of any measurable risk at all. My father, who lived to his 80's, used to mix asbestos up with his bare hands to apply to furnace pipes. Sure, it isn't good for you, but we've really gone overboard in the US with some of this stuff. Asbestos, you know, is a rock. It exists in that very form in nature. Only last week we had a local pcyc hall shut due to dust containing asbestos left over from sheeting removal in the 70's. I'm glad your dad lived a long and full life but many who handled weren't as lucky and the compensation fund set up by the James Hardie company is expected to cost them in the range of $1.5b (2003 estimate, wikipedia). Of the 7000 workers at the Australian Blue Asbestos Company's Wittenoom mine it is expected that by 2020, 700 former employees will have died of mesothelioma (wikipedia). While it may be a "rock" in the ground we are not talking about asbestos buried safely 10 meters under the surface. The entire town of Wittenoom has been wiped of the map and exclusion zones put in place due to the danger posed by the stockpiles, they don't do that for ex uranium mines. Does not the asbestos have to be airborne to be a problem? I'm not implying that this pile is not sometimes airborne, but in my mind's eye, we're talking about stuff that has been wet down and compressed by years of rain. I admit that my visualization of it may not be correct. The workers that you're talking about were exposed to airborne fibers for years, though, were they not? Will walking past the area once to find a geocache really put them in any danger? I'm guessing not.

This really has nothing to do with you even being staff of the land manager. I applaud you. Geocachers are supposed to maintain their own caches. While occasionally it is polite to repair another's hide for them, actually replacing it with a new cache is taking politeness too far and enabling bad caching habits. Post a NM, watch the cache, and if there is no change in a month, post a NA and let the reviewer deal with it. Actually, from what you have written here, you might go directly to the Needs Archived state and let the reviewer and cache owner sort it out. You are not being the "cache police'... please let go of that idea.

You call looking at somebody's public profile "stalking"? LOL! Yep. when you dig up someone's profile purely for the act of blasting them about a post, yes, it's stalking in my book. Or at the very least it's bullying. So you can laugh at me all you want. But lord knows none of us are perfect, including you. Nobody is laughing at you or bullying or blasting you or anybody else here in this thread, as I see it.

Or the bars that have a permanent sign on the door, "Free beer tomorrow"

You call looking at somebody's public profile "stalking"? LOL!

As mentioned earlier in the thread and the post above this one keystone, climbing a tree/cliff is a decision a person can make. Taking a kayak out in rough weather is a decision a person can make. Hiking out into alpine terrain is a decision a person can make. Your average person you probably identify the material found at this cache as rubbish and pay no attention to it because many caches have rubbish near them, it is however a highly dangerous substance that leads to terrible suffering as your life comes to an end. The op identified a hazardous situation and it should have been archived for that reason, same as if searching for a caches leads to the photo above with the bare wires. I'm no environmental engineer, but I'm pretty certain that simply walking past a pile of material that contains asbestos once or twice is not likely to be of any measurable risk at all. My father, who lived to his 80's, used to mix asbestos up with his bare hands to apply to furnace pipes. Sure, it isn't good for you, but we've really gone overboard in the US with some of this stuff. Asbestos, you know, is a rock. It exists in that very form in nature.

For those interested, my wife holds a P401 Identification of Asbestos in Bulk Samples certificate and has been identifying various forms of asbestos under laboratory conditions for the past 14 years. I hold a NEBOSH Diploma, a globally recognised qualifications aimed at professional health and safety advisors and environmental practitioners. Thanks again for all the input into this thread.

Circumstantial evidence is admissible: "Quickest find rate ever .... with 4 cars".

So, it is a vacation cache as well? Curious why you didn't smash it and free the TBs (if they're really in there) after all? Just because the upper rock might have shifted more? If it is that unstable, I doubt that a glass jar would hold up under the weight. It is at arms length under the upper boulder. I would need a long metal spike and hammer to break it. There is an active catcher on the island and I plan to contact them once I'm home. I believe the CO was an employee here. Tony I see. You were afraid of having to maybe chew your arm off. I get it.

So, it is a vacation cache as well? Curious why you didn't smash it and free the TBs (if they're really in there) after all? Just because the upper rock might have shifted more? If it is that unstable, I doubt that a glass jar would hold up under the weight.

A.) What harm does this thread do if you happen to be right that it misses its target audience? B.) How would you propose this goal be accomplished?

Sounds to me like they just got tired of Angry Birds and went looking for a new game app to play. They found one called "Geocaching". Cool thing is, it didn't even require an email verification to play! Don't worry... tomorrow it will be some other game.

Didn't bother me. Fact remains that I haven't seen any issues with buried caches since I started this hobby 9.5 years ago. The only problems there sometimes are, are neighbors having problems with increased activity in their quiet neighborhood. That hoes for any kind of cache/tag. GBV goes a long way. On the other hand, if a title is "you can't do that' on a discussion forum there's bound to be someone to say "You can". Wouldn't be a discussion forum if there wasn't. Sounds to me like you need to start a thread called "Can, too!"

Except that most newcomers aren't reading that thread, so at best it is preaching to the choir. Why are you quoting something [without an attribution] posted in a different thread and responding to it here? And you can you know who is reading that thread? I can only see who is posting. Maybe newcomers *are* reading the thread but are afraid to respond after a few people decided to derail the thread into something that the OP did not intend. Hear, hear! I'll tell ya why I replied here and not there - because I am a model forum citizen, that's why! Let me explain. In that thread, one or more mainstays got upset that there was discussion about the value and advisability of the specific topic, rather than simply discussing the topic. Since my comment was along those lines, I graciously raised it here, to prevent any mainstays from having heart palpitations over there. Also, it has a more general discussion value, which is that if showing photos of violations is supposed to instruct new players, how can that be better accomplished? Perhaps by moving the other thread to a different subforum? Really? It had nothing to do with Keystone's warning?

Well, it is part of the guidelines, and a potential guidelines violation. You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.[...] I agree. There was a cache discussed recently that involved some alledged permission issues, including the posting of a no trespassing sign and property maps. Here's one with a twist on the permission issue. The cache is behind the Posted Private Property sign. The sign above it shows the property with hiking trails. It is not, in fact, private property but the CO nailed the Private Property sign to the tree to create the cache. He posts a picture of lack of permission.

Well, it is part of the guidelines, and a potential guidelines violation. You assure us that you have the landowner's and/or land manager's permission before you hide any geocache, whether placed on private or public property. By submitting a cache listing, you assure us that you have adequate permission to hide your cache in the selected location.[...] Would you post a picture of lack of permission, please?

Except that most newcomers aren't reading that thread, so at best it is preaching to the choir. Why are you quoting something [without an attribution] posted in a different thread and responding to it here? And you can you know who is reading that thread? I can only see who is posting. Maybe newcomers *are* reading the thread but are afraid to respond after a few people decided to derail the thread into something that the OP did not intend. Hear, hear!

Except that most newcomers aren't reading that thread, so at best it is preaching to the choir. I was reading this forum within an hour after finding my first geocache.

So, now we're going to talk about permission in this thread?

One more time... this thread is NOT about discussing the value of this thread, and I, for one, would sure love it if you would stop trying to derail it!

The point of this thread, as I see it, and I think the OP intended, is to be educational to newcomers, not to be punitive to current cache owners.

You remember that one, huh?

What about it? Good fodder for another thread. But not this thread.

Caches can work well within the guidelines, especially the guidelines regarding defacement and damage. Instead of a nail, the bison tube could be moved over to another nearby tree where it can be hung on a branch. Is it OK to nail a bison tube to a cheeta?

One of Groundspeak's Cache of the week (Cache of the month?) entries several years ago was buried. That would not the first honored cache that broke the guidelines, as I recall. They really need to watch that better.