TL&MinBHIL

No, we can't view custom waypoints created with the iPhone Geo app on Geocaching.com. Nor can we transfer coordinate data from the website to our iPhones as you can with many GPS units. It all must be done from within the Geo app. Personally I would like to see Groundspeak put forth more effort into smartphone caching. Namely, better development of the app but also possibly things you touch on, like useful ways our phones/apps can cooperate with the website. Recent disputes with Bing & Google over map tiles caused them to remove some very crucial functions from the Geocaching app with no real plan to return any of that function back to iPhone users. Google Maps returned to the website as a Premium Member only feature only, but not to iPhone users, even though we paid $10 for their app, a steep price in the world of apps. The number of smartphone cachers keeps growing, and regardless of how some may feel about them, they're here to stay. Groundspeak is earning plenty of revenue off of smartphone cachers (through the $10 app as well as Prem. Membership) that they might otherwise not have since not everyone would go out and buy a standard GPS unit.

It's one thing for muggles to discover a cache and take trackables, but it's really a shame for fellow cachers to do it to one another. I'm sure there are plenty of cachers who grab trackables who hold them way too long or are simply unaware of the process, but I'm willing to bet a majority of missing trackables are due to straight up theft. It's not like they can use them as their own if it's already been activated by another cacher, so I suppose the only real purpose of keeping them is for their own personal collection. We wanted one of our own, but never bought one in fear it'd be stolen. It doesn't matter if it only costs a few bucks, I didn't want to buy one knowing there's a huge risk it'd end up missing. So when Geico ran their promotion last year and gave away free Gecko TB's, we saw it as a perfect opportunity to set our own TB free. We thought by getting one free, it wouldn't matter as much if it disappeared, but to be honest, it's still very disappointing. Since releasing it in Aug. 2011, it only took about 8 months and only passed through 3 other cachers before turning up missing. It's been 3 months now and I can only assume it won't reappear. The last cache it was in has an inventory of 8 trackables, but according to the logs, none of them are there. Many of those Gecko TB's, even ones put into circulation long before ours, are still traveling to this day, so it's disappointing knowing ours crossed paths with the wrong cacher who doesn't have the decency to move it along.

Which iPhone do you have? Their GPS feature has become more accurate over time. We use my iPhone 4 to find all of our caches (don't own a handheld GPS) and I find it to be quite accurate. You can expect equal or better accuracy from the 4S, but even with the 3GS, caching is still possible. If you have the full version of the Geocaching iPhone app, take advantage of the save feature. Plan ahead, save caches to a favorites list and that way they can be accessed even when you don't have good cell coverage. You mentioned trees...the iPhone's GPS does tend to lose its accuracy in heavily wooded areas when foliage is at its thickest. Its still manageable, you just might need to allow yourself a little more leeway. As someone else mentioned, don't expect it to put you right on top of the cache every time. Awareness of where a cache might be comes with each find and experience. Oftentimes we like to check the device once we first arrive to the location, let it give us a direction and general distance, survey the surroundings, then put the phone away. If it says ground zero is a couple hundred feet away, we estimate the distance and look for something that would make for a good hiding place (a tree, a fence post, you name it). Once you start thinking like a cacher, and that doesn't take long, you'll find them faster. But then there's always the containers with great camo (like a hollowed out log) or in the perfect spot that's practically hidden in plain sight. So you have to think outside the box at times too, not all of them will jump out at you, but that's part of what makes it so fun. If you have trouble finding one, use the hints if available and check past logs from those who have found it for any clues to its location. And don't worry about how fast other cachers find them. I can't tell you how many times we've spent forever searching for a cache when most of the logs said it was an easy, quick find. It got to the point that when logs said that, we expected to take a while. Then with others where people had trouble, we'd end up finding them right away. Everyone's different, so don't let it affect you. If you have to log a DNF (Did Not Find), so be it, there's no shame in it. Just have fun and enjoy the hunt. Good luck and welcome to the addiction.

Why shouldn't they judge us? You've already judged these cachers as "noobs" and "ones who don't know what they're doing." Is there any evidence that they are new to Geocaching, or do you just assume that because they don't appear to be as skilled as you? And if they are new, at least that could explain why they weren't better prepared for a cache that recommends accessing it by kayak. Do you know they didn't know what they were doing? If they were in fact drinking/drunk, then obviously their judgement, senses, and probably their motor skills were impaired. FYI: Caches can be saved to the iPhone/Geocaching app to be accessed offline, without cell signal, even in rural or remote areas. It can also be used to mark additional waypoints. My family & I just vacationed in the Smoky Mountains where we found a few caches on mountains where there was zero cell coverage. One shouldn't assume caching with a smartphone puts a cacher at an immediate disadvantage.

The tips in the link posted by CachingStaneks are exactly what I was going to suggest, so instead of repeating them, I recommend checking them out. All those little settings adjustment can add up to big power savers. In addition, stop all the apps that are running in the background (if you're using an iOS version that allows is). Double tap the Home button, touch an hold one of the apps shown in the tray, and click to X to stop them. Apps running in the background can use more battery, especially if you have a lot of them. We've cached all day with my iPhone 4. With a little effort, it's possible. If I know we'll be out for an extended period of time, I always make sure to plug it in while driving between caches. We also use it only when necessary. Usually we arrive to a cache site, get an initial reading on the compass to point us in the right direction, lock the phone and start walking/looking. Not only does this make it more challenging (and fun) for us, it keeps us from constantly looking at the phone & using up more battery than needed. If we have a little trouble finding the cache, I get out the fun, get another reading, and repeat the process until it's found. Good luck!

We rented a cabin just outside Pigeon Forge for our vacation next month. Plan on doing quite a bit of hiking and Mt. LeConte will be one of our primary stops. I already have that virtual saved in my phone, as well as the Alum Cave virtual, which is on the way up. Can't wait.

So far I've only watched the 2nd one (in the storm drain) and I was thoroughly entertained. I found it quite funny, I think we have a similar sense of humor. The editing between you and yourself was a nice touch, as were the funny voices. You definitely have me interested and I'll be sure to watch the others. The only thing I'd bring to your attention are the cuss words. Personally, I don't care because I let 'em fly quite often when I'm around people who I know don't mind. But Geocaching is a family game and there might be kids watching your videos, so you might want to either watch what you say or include a small disclaimer warning viewers of a few expletives here & there. For what it's worth, if I was the one crawling through those pipes, I would have been cussing up a storm. Great job, keep up the good work.

The MapQuest app has free turn by turn voice directions. Keep in mind, using any map app, you'll be using data, and if you're on a limited data plan, that's something you'll need to keep an eye on.

Groundspeak wants to tap into the nearly 1 billion user base that occupies facebook. Why, because they want more members here for their own revenue. Here's the catch 22...many people here who say it's great and tell you to stop complaining and just get over it will eventually be complaining about the influx of newbies (and in their minds, bad caches) that facebook brings. I've noticed the hard push to get free members to upgrade to Premium, more so than ever before. I log in now and see a big yellow "Upgrade to Premium" button under my username. A pop-up appears pushing me to upgrade. We're now enticed with Google Maps for Premium members. I get it, they're here to make money, but that Premium membership carrot is being dangled in front of our faces like never before. I get the feeling there's a lot of changes on Geocaching's horizon. As per facebook's typical policy, by default you are opted IN by facebook themselves. In order to opt out, you'll have to dig through a mess of privacy settings to discover the opt out option buried deep within. Be careful. The Zuck likes to send his team of ruthless lawyers against anyone who tries to use "face" or "book" on the internet. Okey dokey, just for kicks, I went ahead and linked my geocaching account with my facebook account. And the big difference I see when I log in with facebook is...absolutely nothing! All the pages on geocaching.com look exactly the same; it still shows "Hello, BuckeyeClan" in the little banner, and everywhere else. It also DOES NOT change your sharing preferences from what they were. Just because the accounts are linked, doesn't mean it will automatically update your facebook status when you log a cache. I had that set NOT to share before I linked my accounts, and it did not change that setting. Near as I can tell, it is simply an alternate way to log into geocaching.com, so you don't have to remember a separate login and password. I usually only access geocaching.com and facebook from my home computer, so I usually stay logged into both accounts. I guess if I were logging in and logging out every time, this might be a handy option, but for most people I'm guessing it doesn't make a big difference. That's all it is, nothing to get all worked up over! Thanks very much. That does indeed seem pretty innocuous. I still don't love FB, but this seems like a non-issue. I'm not a computer guru by any means, i sure don't know how everything works with the internet, and i'm not a paranoid person. But, i have read a few things about facebook and how it uses it's cookies. Type in keywords "facebook cookies" into your favorite search engine and you'll see some of the articles that come up. Some of the pages may simply be opinions and paranoia but there are a few that go into more detail on how facebook cookies work. Yeaaa, i know that tracking cookies are everywhere but if any of the articles are halfway true, then it seems facebook uses them a bit differently than most sites. Facebook tracks your online activity, even when you're not logged into your fb account. Even when you don't even HAVE a fb account. Any website with a "Like" button tracks your activity to an extent. In the past, facebook's cookies tracked YOU, the specific facebook user, during your online activities. When you logged out, they designed their cookies to alter in such a way that it was still able to track you specifically, not just some anonymous internet surfer. Facebook has come out recently to say they've changed this to be less intrusive. Whether they have or not has yet to be seen. Frankly, I don't believe a word they say because their business is personal data, period. Without it, they have no business. The only sure fire way to avoid this is to manually delete facebook's cookies every time you log out. Or use certain browser extensions available for Firefox & Chrome that blocks their ability to track you. Mudfrog mentioned there doesn't appear to be any difference when linking your Geo acct. to your FB acct. I can almost assure you that there is a difference. Facebook most assuredly gets something out of it and that something is data in some form, which is what they value most. Now that they've gone public, they have one primary goal...to appease shareholders. To appease shareholders, they must make more money. And to make more money, they will find even more ways to become more intrusive into our private lives to gain that which they desire...personal data. I know I make it sound a tad dramatic, but their business is data and selling that data to advertisers.

Sure, maybe the only thing that happens to us in this situation is that we're caught on camera going to the bathroom on a tree. But what happens when one of us doesn't realize the camera's there, we're facing it, and it catches more than just our backside? Or worse yet, one of our children. What does the camera owner do with all the photos? Delete them if it's not a muggler? Save them for their collection? These are the things I have a problem with. If I'm in public and I know there are security cameras around, I also know I'm not doing anything worth catching on camera. But I do have a problem with individuals taking our photos without consent. I'd like to see Groundspeak require full disclosure on the cache page if a CO wants to place a camera on site. For all the CO's who innocently place one to catch a thief, there's always going to be some who are up to no good. I've got news for you... you are filmed without your permission almost constantly these days. You've probably been "filmed" while geocaching many times, also... at least if you've done any parking lot hides. Why would you assume the worst because you found a game camera in the woods? There's a big difference between security cameras in the parking lots of businesses and a single individual (a CO) placing a camera at the cache site for who knows what purpose. For as many who say they may do it to catch muggles, there are as many who do it for other, ill-intentioned, reasons. You ask, why assume the worst. We can easily ask, why assume the best? We live in a time of social media everywhere we turn with people who not only disregard their own privacy, but worse yet, have no problem violating other people's privacy as well. Those of you that feel this way had better stay indoors then. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photography_and_the_law#Privacy_issues Knowschad's attitude is one that is very frustrating. The "if you don't like it, don't play" attitude. Trying to accuse us of being crazy paranoid simply because we value our privacy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting a CO to secretly photograph us enjoying the game, but you demonize those of us who feel differently than you. It's very hard to have an opinion in these forums that opposes the majority, because if you do and are willing to voice it, there are always plenty of people who try to make you look like a fool. Some of us have valid privacy concerns in regards to this topic and it's perfectly acceptable, despite how others may treat us because of our opinions & feelings.

I feel that all of us, premium member or not, should have access to good maps. The original post of this thread, "non-premium members can have access to the poor-mans maps" is an offensive 'holier than thou' comment and premium membership deserves to be represented by a much better attitude than that. You can look down your nose at non-premium members all you want, they're still an integral part of this game and you have no problem hunting for caches hidden by the very people you put down. When GS first announced they were removing (or had removed) Google & Bing Maps, several cachers came to the forum to speak their minds regardless of whether they were premium members or not. We all stood together to voice our concerns based on a common issue. Many even said since GS could afford to pay Google & Bing for use of the maps, they should do what's necessary to please cachers. So it's interesting to see so many premium members now saying they're the only ones who deserve it. I'll admit, it's a bit disheartening to see those very cachers (the premium members, that is) cast the non-premiums aside and basically say, Oh well, as long as it screws them and not me, it's OK.

Why show them the courtesy of not posting their username? If nothing else, do it to let other cachers in your area know what type of person this cacher is.

Well since that is the case, I think it'd better serve Groundspeak to replace the spoiler warning present on every cache page with instructions NOT to post spoilers. It would serve a much better purpose there than buried within the TOS. And it would probably help cut down on spoilers posted within the logs. I can't be the only one who read that warning and assumed it meant they allowed spoilers, but if it had instead told me not to post spoilers in my logs, that gets the message across quite clearly.

Let's not forget that Groundspeak places a warning on every cache page right above the logs: **Warning! Spoilers may be included in the descriptions or links. And they define "Spoiler" as: Spoiler A spoiler is information that can give details away and ruin the experience of something. For example, telling someone the end of a movie before they see it. In geocaching, a spoiler gives away details of a cache location and can ruin the experience of the find. To me, by placing this warning, it says they are aware that logs may contain location spoilers, but allow it. It is up to each cacher to be aware of this prior to searching and understand a log, or logs, may offer spoilers. With that said, I fully understand a CO's sentiment when they hide what they consider a challenging cache and want it to remain that way. But deleting logs for a reason that isn't against the guidelines is, in my opinion, pushing beyond the boundaries of a CO's authority. Why not try to contact the cacher and ask them to edit their log or remove their revealing photo? Let them know you wish your cache to be a challenge and their log hurts the integrity of that challenge. Some CO's may consider posting spoilers in logs as hurting the game, but deleting a log for personal reasons (reasons that don't break the rules) sure isn't helping anything.

It's all a matter of preference really. Sure we enjoy caches that bring us to great destinations well worth seeing, but we also enjoy the simple act of getting out as a family and the thrill of the hunt (no matter how small it may be). We enjoy the small & micros "stuck in a tree" (as you put it) because often times they give us yet another cache to hunt in between interesting locations. Also, keep in mind that caches many might consider simple or not worth it (example: LPC's) gives certain people the chance to enjoy the game who otherwise aren't able to access some of the more difficult and off the beaten path caches. Like others have said, there's many to choose from, especially if you're in or around a highly populated area. There's something for everyone.

To answer your second question, yes, what you said is possible. I use the official Geocaching iPhone app, so I can only speak for it. But I'm guessing the Geocaching app is just about the same for Android phones. Using the app & a WiFi connection, you can save caches to your favorites list to be accessed offline later. Keep in mind, due to Google's policies, and recent changes to Bing's as well, neither of those providers allows their maps to be saved for offline use on the Geocache app. The only map capable of being saved for offline use on the newer versions of the app is OpenStreetMaps. Once caches are saved to your favorites, you can access their cache pages, descriptions, hints, a short list of the most recent logs, just about everything you'd see on the website. You can also compose a log from within the app, but without a data plan, you can't actually submit it to Geocaching.com out in the field. But you can create it and save it until you're on WiFi again, then submit it. Just FYI, the free version of the Geocaching app only displays the 3 closest caches to your current location, but there have been reports of some of them not showing up at times. Hope this answers your question.

You might be surprised at how well they work in more rural terrain. We're constantly caching in heavily wooded & hilly areas with my iPhone 4. It's obviously not as accurate under the canopy of trees, but with a little effort, it hasn't failed us yet. Sure sometimes it may not put us right on top of it, but in a worst case scenario, I'd say within 15-20 ft. on a bad day and that's easily manageable. Caching isn't always about the accuracy of the device, but the skill of hunting that comes along with the experience you gain the more you play. Knowing what to look for (some of the more common hiding places), being able to think outside the box on occasion, and simply thinking like a cacher. We often pull up to a location, get an initial reading (sometimes hundreds of feet away), point ourselves in the right direction, put the phone away and go. I think it's sometimes more fun that way. If the device, whatever it may be, puts you on top of the cache every single time, I think that would take much of the fun out of it. Also, it's great that you plan to take care to hide your caches properly & accurately with your phone. I think it's very possible for many of the newer smartphones to hide a cache accurately as long as the user makes the effort to do so. Let's face it, even some of those who hide with a GPS unit aren't always accurate...they just tend to get a free pass around here because they're using a handheld. In all honesty, the problems you describe can be found with GPS unit users as well, not just smartphone cachers. But for whatever reason, there's an overall general disdain for smartphone users regardless of how good or bad they are. There's plenty of "bad" CO's using GPS units whose coords are inaccurate & caches are constantly in need of maintenance that rarely happens. I'm not saying all smartphone users are innocent, but we seem to take much of the blame for problems when blame can easily be shared between all devices. At some point you have to stop blaming the device for certain problems and blame the person using it. Nope. I'm pretty sure this feature was suggested on the old Feedback forum. Don't know what became of it. I'd like to see it implemented. I think requiring a CO to list the device they used to hide with would cause even more animosity than there already is towards smartphone cachers. As has already been said many times on this forum, yes there are older smartphones that flat out are not capable of hiding a cache accurately. But there are many newer models that are, and some that can even outshine the accuracy of certain GPS units. I truly believe that if you have a device capable of providing accurate coords, it has more to do with the person hiding than the device they're using. If you make the effort to get good coords, recheck them for accuracy (more than once is a good idea), and ensure a good caching experience, then that's what's important. Someone with the most accurate GPS out there can still hide an inaccurate cache if they don't put forth enough effort.

By getting a real GPS. There is a wide variety of accuracy depending on the smartphone. Some have apparently been pretty accurate, but many are horrible. Just get yourself a cheap handheld to hide a cache. Your fellow geocachers will be thankful. I'm just venting a little bit here, please note that if someone has a question about using their smartphone to Geocache, it doesn't help to answer their question by telling them to go buy a GPS unit. Unfortunately it's a common answer to many smartphone questions on this forum, but does little to help the cacher better understand his/her device when using it to cache. Also, many cachers have experienced more accuracy with newer smartphones than with their older, cheaper GPS units, so telling someone to go buy a cheap GPS could possibly yield the same inaccurate results that everyone's trying to avoid. Everyone assumes a GPS unit is always better, but in some cases that's not necessarily true. I just wanted to clarify to avoid confusion just in case anyone looks for this app. The Perfect Mark app is .99 in the App Store. I heard about it (on this forum) months ago and always meant to buy it & try it out.

Just out of curiosity (since I'll never go there) for those who have been to this one, is it safe to say the cache is buried? I mean, it's somewhere within this open grassy area, not visible to the naked eye, where else could it be? And if so, it would be in violation of the guidelines for placing a cache. Not that that matters too much because plenty of people give it a shot without complaining.

I'm sure you've already done this, but take a close look at the satellite view (on the website, not on your app). Get a good feel for approx. where it is because apparently, for whatever reason, the free App isn't going to list it. If their coords are right, it looks to be in the open grass between the walking/biking trail and the parking lot. They claim it's a tricky hide and the last person to have found it said it was clever, so those are clues that you're probably looking for something a bit unconventional. Mind the hint as well, it may help. And the fact that more than one cacher said it takes some muscle to get it. Caches aren't supposed to be buried, but it seems like there's a chance this one could come close to it. Just look for the unusual, something that's out of place. There's always a chance their coords are a bit off, so you can check nearby trees, but judging by their description, I don't think it's in a tree. Read through the recent logs, oftentimes they can give a clue to finding tricky hides. And as Chief301 suggested, another GPS App such as Motion X Lite doesn't hurt. I used that one back when I had the free Geocaching version and it helps. Good luck with your financial situation, I know the feeling. I buy Apps with iTunes gift cards that have been gifted to me. A $15 or $25 card goes a long way. If you're able to keep a smartphone in the future and can eventually afford the $10 App (and plan on sticking with Geocaching) I definitely recommend the full version...it's much better than the free one. Good luck with this cache...think outside the box.

I realize the number of hides one has is often used as a determining factor here, but as far as I'm concerned, having hidden caches or not doesn't make a cacher more or less knowledgeable of the overall game. The fact that I haven't hidden a single cache has absolutely no affect on my skills as a Geocacher. It has is no way hindered our ability to successfully find caches. Hiding them is merely an aspect of the game we have yet to participate in. Unfortunately having no hides is often used in a derogatory manner and as a way of some cachers putting themselves above others. I'm not saying that's what you meant, Mr.Yuck, I'm just sort of venting since you brought it up. Personally I don't put much value in a hide count. There's a cacher in my area who's hidden over 40 caches, but if you ask me, they're more concerned with quantity than quality and the caches often reflect that. So having a hide count doesn't make them a better Geocacher in general. As far as the scientific study, it uses the iPhone 3G. The GPS capabilities of smartphones have undoubtedly gotten much better since then. Personal experiences by myself & countless other Geocachers can confirm that. I agree that many dedicated GPS units are definitely more accurate than smartphones. Let's hope so, it is what they are solely designed to do. But to say the best smartphone positioning is not nearly as accurate as the worst dedicated GPS unit just isn't true. Now that I've gotten that out of my system, I'm curious as to what phone you have, Mr.Yuck. We've done a lot of caching in thick wooded areas & hilly terrain, similar to what you describe, but I wouldn't say my iPhone 4 performed "very poorly." As I said, it does have a harder time in the woods, but still does quite well. I also have a tough case (an Otterbox) so that quells much of the fear of damaging it.

The official Geocaching App for iPhone can be used offline, but you have to save the caches you want to look for to your favorites first. Go to each individual cache's page from within the App and click on "Add to Saved List" to save them to your favorites. Then you choose to include images or not and pick the maps you want to save (street, topo, satellite). Keep in mind you cannot have Google Maps chosen in the App's settings...those can't be saved. Any cache in your saved list can then be searched for offline.

I couldn't disagree more. I cache solely with my iPhone 4 & Geocaching app and find it to be extremely accurate, more often than not getting me within 5-10 ft. Sure it has its bad days, but not often, and when it does, the distance it puts me from the cache is still easily manageable. The most difficulty is has is while in heavily wooded areas with thick canopy, but even then it can get me within 20 ft. Also, there have been countless cachers in this forum who have used different smartphones AND handheld GPS units and have attested that oftentimes the smartphone is as accurate, and even sometimes more accurate, than certain GPSr's. As far as placing caches with a smartphone, that's easily accomplished as well, and accurately so. Again, there are plenty in the forum who have done it. The key is to take your time, be careful, and don't settle for the first reading you get. I think it has more to do with the willingness of the cacher to do it right than the device they're doing it with.

I've only cached twice since upgrading my iPhone 4 to iOS 5, but both times I've noticed a major problem. With the compass view, the compass no longer spins freely and orient itself to point me in the direction I need to go. In the map view, when I turn on the map orient feature, the map also no longer spins to orient itself in the direction I'm facing. Since I haven't cached much recently, I don't know if this happened after the 4.5.6 release or after I updated to iOS 5. I've uninstalled the app, re-downloaded it from the App Store, and reinstalled with no change.

Let's take a look at "everything else". You've already mentioned that you see very little difference in accuracy. Based on the posts by folks who have done side by side comparisons of a high end GPSr and a cell phone, I'm guessing the "little" difference is in favor of the dedicated handheld? What other aspects can a device be measured by? Durability. Both my 60CSx and my Oregon 300 have survived more than one trip off the roof of my vehicle, bouncing off the blacktop at 45 MPH. I have driven over my 60CSx with my truck. I have had my 60CSx mounted on the handlebar of my motorcycle when I wrecked it. Is anyone willing to let me borrow their iPhone to see how it handles similar conditions? Even in an Otterbox case I'm betting the answer is "No". Battery life. My 60CSx lasts roughly 20 hours of continuous use on a single set of batteries. My Oregon 300 drains them much faster, only lasting about 16 hours. My daughter's iPhone 4 is only good for about 4 or 5 hours of continuous use with the GPSr engaged. Sure, both can have their use extended through various means, but for comparison purposes, I'd rather look at how they perform straight out of the box. Data access. With the iPhone's ability to access Groundspeak through the Geocaching App, there simply is no comparison. If I load them as POIs, the only real limit to how many caches I can load onto my 60CSx is how many PQs I can run. Presuming I can extend the range of each PQ so it captures 1000 caches, at 5 PQs a day, over 7 days, that's 35,000 caches. With just a flick of the power button, an iPhone can put that number to shame. So, out of "everything else", a phone wins one out of three. You keep referring to "high end" units. That's fine, any rational smartphone cacher will concede that yes, high end GPS units far outshine the accuracy of a smartphone. But as I mentioned, and has been mentioned multiple times by those who have done side by side comparisons, smartphone accuracy can be equivalent to and more accurate than many of the older & lower end GPS models. What aggravates me is all the threads that pop up in this forum complaining about hiding caches with smartphones, but those same people never complain about hiding with a GPS that's only as accurate or less accurate than many phones. So for many here, it seems like it's just the general idea of a smartphone cacher that they dislike. Almost as if to say, we don't mind your inaccuracy as long as it's not with a smartphone. I bought my iPhone 4 shortly after they came out, so I've only had it for a little more than a year. But I've had other cell phones for several years. Not once have I left them on the roof of my car as I drove away. I also don't ever intend to run it over. I have cached on my motorcycle, but don't strap my phone to the handlebars. Even if I had a GPS unit, I wouldn't. It's nice that yours survived, but in all honesty, those are extreme cases of abuse that most people will probably never encounter. More than likely devices will be dropped on the ground, on concrete/pavement, rocks, etc. My iPhone + Otterbox can & has easily survived the more common caching device accidents. Another common problem is getting wet. There are waterproof cases for smartphones, but the ones I've seen are pretty expensive. I've cached in the rain without any problems. The Otterbox isn't waterproof, but protects it from the elements quite well. If I did own a GPS unit, knowing that it can handle more doesn't mean I'd treat it any differently. I'd treat it as carefully as I do my phone, that's just the way I am. I don't have any problems listing the cons of smartphone caching. When someone asks about caching with one, I'll gladly tell them the downsides. But plenty of us have proven that those downsides shouldn't discourage anyone who wants to take up Geocaching as a regular hobby. For the most part, yes, but there's just an overall, general dislike of smartphone cachers. Along the lines of accuracy (or inaccuracy) as I said above, no one complains about caches hidden with GPS units with inaccurate coordinates. It's immediately blamed on smartphones. Inaccurate coords, it must have been a smartphone. More micros hidden, it must be all these new smartphone cachers. Every time someone asks for advice about caching with a smartphone, they're inundated with GPS users telling them not to and to go out & buy a GPSr. So there's more to it than just hiding with one. Whatever the hang up is, smartphones aren't going away, so some people will just have to get over it. I'm not saying it's an excuse for a bad hide...bad hides come from smarthpones AND GPS units. That's why I say it's more about the individual than the device. The point I was trying to make above is that we, as smartphone cachers, know our devices downfalls & limits (or at least you should know them). That's why I try to educate those who are interested in caching with one. Give them the information that enables them to make up their own minds. On the flip side, many GPS users would rather discourage smartphone use and suggest buying a handheld. If you don't want to use a smartphone to cache, great, go have fun with your GPS. I'm not knocking anyone for that. But don't discourage someone from using a phone just because you don't like them. While I agree that my cellphone is less durable than your 60CSx, I am indeed willing to let you attach it to your handlebars while you wreck another motorcycle. I'm sorry, I know it sounds bad but I laughed. I don't wish for him to wreck his bike again and it's too bad it happened, but when he asked to borrow someone's iPhone, I pictured him saying, C'mon I'll prove your phone is less durable. I'll strap it to my bike & wreck again. Forgive my sense of humor, sometimes it's a bit twisted.