Googling Hrpty Hrrs

I've never viewed this whole subject matter as a debate, because it's all opinion anyway. You can't tell me I'm wrong because I think Arcade Fire is the best band to come out in ages. You can tell what band YOU think is better, and we can go back and forth, but neither of us is wrong. I think that's why you haven't found folks to debate you. I like the OP because FINALLY someone stated an intelligent reason for the critters, rather than focusing on why others don't like them. Why is an opinion about what we like in caches such a taboo subject? We can discuss favorite/least favorite music, movies, food etc and no one assumes we're asking for a ban on Britney Spears. (okay, maybe I am calling for a ban on Britney) But let someone say they don't like a LPC and people feel challenged, threatened, abused etc. I hope the discussion can be advanced as it was in the OP. Let's not be scared to discuss hide types, likes and dislikes, methods, etc. I mean, if we can't talk about caches it sorta limits the scope of these forums. We are not our caches.

I think you're right on. Travel bug angst from all sides is annoying, but this guys "save the bugs" campaign irritates more than anything you did with the cache setup. Moral to the story: stay away from the bugs. Far away. People are nutty about them.

No flames. Only applause.

Okay. "Kitsch" is non-quality, therefore quality is snobbish? Kind of a leap. Wow ... is it really already time again for another reminder? Where does the time go? Anything you'd like to say to me before we address your point, CR? I think the OP was a lot more persuasive than this post. You've got a good point- no need to dilute it by bringing burned out disagreements that were boring the first time.

Kitsch. THAT’s the word I was looking for when I wrote that post! I just couldn’t think of it at the time. "Kitsch" precisely describes not only the predictable and less-than-clever caches that I nevertheless enjoy finding, but also one of the main reasons I nevertheless enjoy finding them. It is an honest appreciation for the very lack of creativity those hides represent, but it is neither an eye-rolling sense of self-superiority nor a compassionate sympathy; it is somewhere in the middle ... and then half a bubble off in another direction. It is my twisted admiration for laziness and tastelessness, or as Jeff Foxworthy defines the word Redneck: A glorious lack of sophistication. Lamp post caches, by their very nature, are gloriously unsophisticated. The first one I ever found was clever. The fifth one was lame. The twentieth one was kitschy. From the Wikipedia definition: "It is often said that kitsch relies on merely repeating convention and formula, lacking the sense of creativity and originality displayed in genuine art." In the regular world, kitsch is: - Garden gnomes - Twenty-foot-tall residential mailboxes labeled "AIR MAIL" - Paintings of dogs playing poker - Those fake baseball-in-cracked-window stickers on cars In the Geocaching world, kitsch is: - A half square foot of parallel sticks (not) covering a brand new two-square-foot cache container in the woods - A fake bird house cache that looks nothing at all like a real bird house - Ironically bad grammar in a cache description, such as "The puzzle simple." - Micro caches under lamp post skirts. These things represent the amateur flavor, the democratic nature – the very grassrootness – of our hobby. They are pitiful and beautiful at the same time. I like simple lamp post caches not because they are bad, but because when they are near other simple lamp post caches they are comically bad. I like tacky caches simply because they are tacky. (Plus they give me an excuse to play with my Garmin, and to log a smiley.) If my appreciation for lamp post caches – my ability to enjoy pretty much any cache out there, no matter how unsophisticated – makes me abnormal, then I don’t want to be normal. If I were normal I apparently wouldn’t enjoy this hobby nearly as much. Is it just me? I feel this post shows honesty and pushes me a bit closer to appreciation of this hide type. It seems in many of the LPC threads, one side says they hate them, and the others spend their time defending rights, and freedom of speech, etc. FINALLY someone just explains why they like them in an intelligent way. Thanks for the post.

I think good, honest debate is always a very good thing, regardless of the subject matter. I think there's a lot of good, honest debate that goes on around here.

I see your points, and I often drop out of a debate after making my points and then spend more time reading the other point of view. However, a debate isn't always only about the participants. Even if 2 folks are beating their heads against the wall and never wavering from their point of view, the audience who may be neutral or undecided can gain value by seeing the extremes of both sides. There's been several issues discussed here of which I was unsure of my stance, but after reading 6 pages of fervent arguing I was able to see the issue much more clearly. It's another reason why I'd prefer to see less premature thread closings. A thread may look hopeless because folks are arguing without looking at the other side. But that doesn't mean the readers aren't enjoying seeing the 2 distinct sides.

I wonder if we can turn this into a "Sticky." Great post!!! I also agree that this is a great post. Please take it under advisement, without any addendums.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. I've only used mine when necessary to prevent others from the FTF.

These are the most tightly moderated forums I've ever seen, but it's moderated consistently and in the manner I think TPTB wants it. And TPTB have the right to dictate that. Now this is pretty annoying. People actually send PM's to moderators to close threads NOT because of inappropriate behavior but because they're just bored with it? Do people actually have time to write emails about geocaching forum threads that they don't prefer? How pathetic. I have to say Mushtang is pretty consistent. In numerous other threads he defends "lame" caches primarily on the idea that "lame" is in the eye of the beholder. Many folks here defend folks rights to hide LPC as a sort of freedom of expression. Shouldn't these same folks, in the same way Mushtang has, defend folks right to post in a forum? Aren't posts' wisdom in the eye of the beholder? I'm sure several folks with opinions on page 7 feel they have valid points, even if you don't. I think it's pretty arrogant when folks complain about multiple pages of the same tired arguments. I think we should have at least as much respect for people's right to state their opinions here as we do for their right to post caches. (of course this assumes posts are on-topic and not abusive.)

Take it. Move it. Just get it out of my line of sight. Travel Bugs are angst magnets. Yuck

I find most of the regular posters here have great senses of humor. Perhaps it is you who are taking their posts too seriously?

I second that. Most importantly, make it seem better that you've found another cacher than another cache.

and THEN This gets the "gimme a break" award of the year! Everyone please reread Clan Riffster's posts in this thread. He brings actual experience and perspective to juxtapose some of the irrational and extreme viewpoints presented here.

But a correct one. Thank goodness there's a few of them out there like CR.

Not my cache, just a nice one within the city boundary. The permission will never get granted, but 3 km upstream there is even a bike-route within the riverbed. So the danger can't be that enormous, in my opinion... Maybe I'll adopt and relocate the cache, of the former owner agrees :wink:. Addition: the "Forbidden"-Sign has been placed soon after WW2, its pure rust and almost unreadable. And it looks like it has never been replaced. What is there to discuss?

The posts above seem a little too serious to me. This is nerdfest, man. Me saying I like ammo cans more than film cannisters is like me saying I like the X-Men waaayyy more than Fantastic Four. Gandalf would whup Obi Wan hands down. My Vorpal Longsword will TOTALLY beat your Mace of Disruption. It's just nerds discussing nerd things. No one should take it too seriously.

Nicely said.

Though you didn't agree with my analogy of a dinner, I think it was pretty accurate. Because a cache (like a dinner) is something freely given, it's understood that you're not owed anything. However you host the dinner, (and place the cache) with the idea of providing some form of pleasure. That's why I'd never tell you your meal is awful or you cache is bad. That's called social tact. But later, if I'm discussing cache types (or dishes) I don't think it's inappropriate to discuss the details of the object in question. If we're talking management, one of my favorite statements is "love the person, fix the procedure." I love my fellow cachers- doesn't mean we shouldn't be able to discuss waterproof containers or anything. Not sure what this means. I don't have anyone to criticize at all. Both activities- caching and forums- are fun to me.

I lost my hiking stick, but didn't even notice until the next time I was planning to cache, which was about a month later. I looked back through my finds and picked a woolly stick-worthy cache. Went back to it and there was my hiking stick, right where I left it a month before.

I don't take any of this that seriously. Sure there's some folks that talk doom and gloom about lamp skirts, but most of us wouldn't ever even have occasion to mention our opinions about cache quality if we weren't visiting forums that are about all things geocaching. Just to clarify- 1.) I've NEVER not had a good time when I've set out to geocache. 2.) I do log LPC's, and we're usually to be busy laughing about something else to even comment on the lameness or non-lameness of it. 3.) I fully accept my "failure to have fun", but see #1. 4.) I think a cache listing page IS an invitation from someone to hunt their cache. 5.) I've never called anyone out for a specific hide, and I have only seen a couple of instances ever on these forums where someone else did. I think it would be uncool if someone did do that. 6.) I think folks need to lighten up if it offends them that someone else says a film cannister is a poor container. Or that they don't like LPC's. If we were out caching, I'd be the first to tell them to shut up and let's have fun caching. But these are forums, and discussion about hiding techniques/containers/types/likes/dislikes is a very normal topic. If any of us are so thin-skinned that we take a critique about an inanimate object personally, we might need to rachet down our obsession level. We are not our caches. (notice in the analogy I stated you might not have liked the meal, but you'd think I was a swell guy. One of my very favorite cachers hides some sub-par caches by my estimation. I can like and appreciate the cacher and not love their caches. 7.) No comments or discussion in these forums affect my pleasure caching. They are two different activities. AND BTW, the analogy was just for fun, anyway.

I wouldn't do it deliberately, but logging caches at all is far down my list of priorities. I log them when it crosses my mind. I also don't do the annoying *************************FTF!!!********************************** on my logs either. FTF is just another find to me.

I take that approach to caching most often, but I am also an opportunist when I am traveling. I'm happy for ANY cache along the way. I go to a lot of events and I will generally pass on most caches near my home unless the word of mouth is really good. It keeps me from getting burnt out and developing feelings of entitlement for my time and gas. A cache is a cache is a cache. All the hider owes you or me is to have hidden the cache within the guidelines and to have final coords within 30ft (the most common error) or so of the actual cache. Nothing more. If it wasn't for micros, skirt lifters, and wally world caches, I wouldn't have gotten a cache in every state I passed through (15) on my way to and from GW5. If you (the royal you) EXPECT more than that, you will have problems enjoying yourself geocaching. The hider doesn't OWE you some awesome adventure. They are participating in a game called geocaching where you use a GPSr to find something that has been hidden. They hid something to participate. Get it? You choose to hunt caches. Caches don't hunt you. If most caches don't blow your skirt up as they don't with me, then modify your cachin' routine to fit your expectations better. Take responsibility for your own choices as most of the rest of the adult world does. You'll be much happier in the long run..... Okay, so I invite you over for a delicious dinner and fine conversation. You ask if you need to bring anything, and I respond, "No, I wouldn't dream of it." Just bring your appetite! You ask what sort of meal I'm planning, because you don't want to be TOTALLY in the dark, and I let you know it's hard to describe, and I don't want to spoil the surprise, but it's somewhat akin to pasta. I don't OWE you a great meal. And you've taken responsibility to come over and eat dinner. You could have said no, you have laundry to do. But you're a man of adventure and you decided to go for some good ol' GHH home cooking. When you arrive, I let you know you're in for a special treat. I've specially prepared my secret recipe of Worms with Lemon Juice. After being polite and swallowing a few bites without chewing, you mention how you had a late lunch and you're not real hungry. We end up having enjoyable conversation, though, and you leave with an overall impression that I'm a good person, but not necessarily a great cook. Later, you happen to be on the internet and see a forum dedicated to cooking. There's a thread about awful meals, and though you post a response that states something along the lines of "the host doesn't OWE you anything," a slight belch and hint of lemony worms makes you at least give a slight pause.

$0.02 from someone who does have the authority to enforce the law; Cops are people, and, contrary to Roddy's posts, most people have a pretty fair grasp of common sense. Here in Seminole County Florida, our ordinances are written with the intent to empower us, the deputies. I can actually make a physical arrest on someone I find in a closed park. Would I do so? No, I would not. Parks are paid for by the citizens, and exist for the enjoyment of the citizens. I, and the deputies I work with, prefer to reserve our arrest powers for those who are victimizing others, and not waste the time & money of otherwise honest folks who are simply trying to enjoy nature when they can. Roddy, you've ranted & raved for 4 pages, about a situation that caused no harm to anyone. Let it go. If an adult chooses to violate a particular rule, ordinance or law, they assume the risks inherent with that choice. I work hand in hand with the park managers and forestry supervisors, and I can assure you, they already know that, on occasion, people enter their areas at times other than those posted. When I first started this career in '82, bright & eager, and would point out these indiscretions to them, the answer was always the same; "What were they doing?". If the answer involved no harm to other citizens or their park, they shrugged their shoulders and said, "Don't worry about it". Bottom line? Criminal trespass, (pun intended ), is typically not a good idea, and might result in consequences to the offender. There is no need for you to get your kilt wadded up about it. It will not end this game we all love. You're getting yourself worked up over a very minor thing. Is it really worth it? Edit to add: Sorry, that should've read "5" pages. That post was written under the guise of sanity. And I like it.

A couple of nights ago just after dusk. A dozen or so good citizens of my town were using their local park. Playing, walking, and otherwise enjoying the park. The very reason it was built. While they were in fact breaking park rules, or potentially the law. They were using the park for the exact purpose for which it was built. It's a sad commentary on life when the good citizens must live in mortal fear of breaking a park rule while the riff raff for whom it's really inteded ignore the law with impunity. Thanks to this thread I'm now opposed to one more stupid law that has crept onto the books. If someone can show me how these laws have made the world a better place. I'll change my mind. Here, here! Most people (though not all) are evidently capable of exercising some common sense in these matters. I was out this morning around 6:00 picking up a new cache in a local park. The park officially opens at 8:00 and closes at dusk. In my brief foray into the park, I saw a half dozen people walking their dogs and getting some exercise. They, and I, chose to come early because the temperature in the summer often reaches above 100°. If you don't go early, you don't go at all. Were these people (and I) breaking the park rules? Yes. Are they evil people? No, just hardworking taxpayers who fund that park. Who were they harming? Would it be better to wait until the park officially "opens" but too hot to enjoy? Maybe we should simply close the parks for the summer. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. From reading this thread, I've learned something. Common sense, really isn't that common. Thank you for that bit of wisdom. You've both described all the parks in my area. There's a park that I walked through every morning during junior high on my way to school, along with many other school kids. We were all breaking the law. There's a lot of grey areas in this conversation, and I've yet to see one single example of how geocaching has been endangered in even one single park due to being in a park 30 minutes after or before a park opens/closes. (which is the case for the cache find in question that began this topic) The demonization of good citizens that I've seen in this thread is sad and inappropriate.