ReadyOrNot

7 was the largest font size I could pick... Please take your own advice!!!!

You're almost there!!! So close!!! Most cachers do not have an agenda beyond getting exercise and seeing cool places. If someone places a religious item in a cache, trade it out. A coupon placed in a cache has an agenda. If it's a coupon I could use, I can trade it out. If it's a coupon I can't use, I can ignore it. If i'm offended by the coupon being there, I can trade it out. That religious tract might have a positive impact on someone. It might have a negative effect on someone (as you have shown). It may have a neutral effect. Do what you want with the item, but it's *NOT AGAINST THE GUIDELINES* Who are you to tell anyone what they should and shouldn't leave in a cache?

You can always travel to Portland OR and get a bacon donut. Back OT-the guidelines do not state that putting a single religious item in a cache promotes an agenda nor does it solicit. It's your cache, maintain it as you see fit. And keep the drama on point. We have already had our religious or not discussion this week, and it is only Tuesday. And since this is a privately owned and operated website, I don't think the Constitution will apply either. But I could be wrong, it's been months since I have stayed in a Holiday Inn. They're quite good, just had one a couple weeks ago Considering that this privately owned and operated website does not own the game of Geocaching, it's interesting that someone thinks they have any right to dictate what you can and can't put in a cache. They can dictate what the requirements are in order to list the cache and can remove the listing if they want, but they can't dictate how the game is played. I think TPTB have been very clear that religious items put in a cache do not violate the guidelines.. Case closed...

I have an idea! Instead of trying to guess people's agendas and intents, why not just ignore it if you don't like it? How's that grab ya?

Also, everyone does realize that Groundspeak is merely a listing service, right? You place the container in a location and then list the cache with Groundspeak. Groundspeak can deny the cache based on what you put on the listing, but they cannot control what is in the cache. If items are in a cache that would place liability on Groundspeak, they reserve the right to disable or remove the listing.. THE LISTING. Groundspeak does not own the physical cache, nor do they own the game of Geocaching. Groundspeak cannot dictate what type of items people trade in or out of caches, except where they may be subject to liability as the listing agent of the cache... Example: If Groundspeak was made aware that there was something illegal in a cache, doing nothing could open them to liability if someone were to get hurt.

You've defined this to mean someone who wants to stifle your freedom of speech and religion, which makes no sense. But in any case, nowhere have I tried to claim some open-minded, progressive high ground. You insist on characterizing me as being motivated by hatred, which is just weird. I don't "hate" religion. At worst, I find it deeply, deeply boring. That's about it. I just think it's against the guidelines AND the spirit of the game to use a geocache to promote an agenda, whether or not you own the geocache. If you want to argue about that, fine, but please stop with the personal characterization. It's inflammatory, unnecessary, and has no basis in anything I've actually said. Ok... So let me get this straight... You hijack a thread that isn't remotely religious. You twist the guidelines to imply that religious items are prohibited trade-items... You spend a huge amount of time arguing back and forth in these forums.... For something you find <yawn> ... boring... Sorry, not buying what you're selling... But nice try...

Are you really trying to claim that using somebody else's geocache to promote an agenda is in keeping with the spirit of the guidelines? Really? Most every item that you put into a cache has some kind of agenda, especially person travel bugs. Perhaps you should let us all know what kind of items would be acceptable to you, so we'll know what kind of items are appropriate. How about hand warmers? The ones I put in the cache had the company name on the container, so that would be out.. Maybe it would just be better to not allow any swag, because it might upset someone's sensibilities.

As long as they have permission to place the cache there and the cache description text doesn't promote or disparage a religion, I don't have a problem with that. My partner (in life, crime, and geocaching) just published GC209Y8. I recognize religion as being an integral part of the society in which I live. I just don't think people should put propaganda, of any kind, into geocaches. Using a geocache to promote an agenda is against the guidelines. Placing a geocache with the intent of promoting an agenda is against the guidelines. Seriously, are you going to actually read the guidelines or just make it up as you go?

I don't think so. R.O.N. felt that religion was being attacked, and then assumed that if religion was under attack, it must be under attack by open-minded progressives. Well, are you an open-minded, progressive thinker?

Has anybody self-identified in the thread as progressive and open minded? It's been my experience that those professing to be the open-minded, progressive thinkers are usually the ones that are first in line to silence speech when they disagree with it...

I injected my opinion on religious items in caches, not my opinion on religion. I'm sorry you interpreted that as an attack on religion itself. It wasn't. The subject of my original comment was religious items, because that's what I see in caches. My views on religion itself are pretty unremarkable and likely wouldn't have sparked as much outrage as my views on agenda-promoting objects in caches. And you are entitled to not like whatever you want.. But you are plain "WRONG" when you say it's a violation of the guidelines. How do you feel about caches that are placed on church property but do not have any religious items in them?

You make a good point about keeping things light and friendly, but your continually insisting that religious trade items are disallowed per guidelines completely overshadows any sensible arguments that you make. Perhaps you should back down on the guidelines argument and we can peacefully move forward and agree. The guidelines prohibit using geocaches as a platform for an agenda. If I find any item that is promoting an agenda, I'll remove it. The guidelines prohibit placing a cache that is a platform for an agenda... How many times do we need to go 'round and 'round about this before you actually take off your blinders and actually read the stinkin' guidelines?!?!?! You can take the item out as long as you replace it with an item of equal or greater value. The person that placed that item in the cache is not violating the guidelines, nor are you by trading it out. Do you get this?

I am an atheist, and I don't put atheism-related materials or objects into caches because I don't believe in using geocaches to impose my worldview on others. If I noticed atheism materials in a cache, I would likely remove them. But you don't mind imposing your worldview here in the forums, do you? The "other" topic was fun and light until you decided to show up and inject your view on religion into the discussion. Perhaps you should start taking your own advice. Next time you see a topic that you feel the need to hijack, just remember...

You make a good point about keeping things light and friendly, but your continually insisting that religious trade items are disallowed per guidelines completely overshadows any sensible arguments that you make. Perhaps you should back down on the guidelines argument and we can peacefully move forward and agree.

Better cover up, your bizarre personal vendetta is showing again. No personal vendetta... Just tired of people like you trying to control what I do because of your own personal fears and prejudices. If you were an atheist and created a cool little spaghetti monster personal trade item that you put into caches, how would you feel if I deemed your item to be offensive because it conflicted with my personal worldview and removed it from any cache I came across?

Whether or not they are a waste of time is not the issue here. Whether or not they violate the guidelines is what is at issue here. For what it's worth, I agree with you that they are a waste of time, but once you start allowing allowing someone filled with hatred to control what you can and can't do, more will come along to push even harder. Can you imagine Groundspeak saying, "Religious material is not allowed in caches"... Besides not being their call to make, because they don't own the containers nor do they own Geocaching, it would open a can of worms. They'd have to make a list of items that were "Allowable", because so many things would not be allowed.

Where in here does it say anything about you being protected from religion? I have a right to express my religion through speech or writing. How did it ever happen that people feel they can silence those that they disagree with? And why is it always those "progressive, open-minded" folks that seem to be the worst at it.

Those guidelines do not now nor have they ever applied to swag. Untrue. See Keystone's comments in the "Naughty Swag" thread for clarification. Perhaps you need to read his comments on the "Naughty Swag" thread. Better cover up, your agenda is showing again.

Yeah, that's kind of the crux of all the drama, isn't it? I would not disable a cache because it had a religious tract in it. That's because religious items aren't on the list of prohibited items in the Cache Contents guideline. You could only make it fit by labeling the tract an "other questionable item." I've never seen Groundspeak or a reviewer make that subjective leap. I think that the religious items and tracts discussion is best left for the other thread recently opened. Thanks for the clarification and perspective of someone who actually deals with the guidelines regularly. Now we can get back to the original topic before it was hijacked on page 1

When you start with a deep-seated hatred for all things relating to religion, the guidelines tend to say what you want them to say. When you look at it from an objective point of view, I think it's clear what the intent of the guidelines are. This is a good example of why it's difficult to argue from an objective point of view with someone coming from a point of view based on hate

Thank you for quoting the guidelines, and thereby proving narcissa's point (although I don't think that's what you intended to do). Focus on the phrase "or if a cache is reported to have the questionable items." If I receive a report that an existing innocent cache has been turned into a porn stash, I would disable the listing and ask the owner to go maintain their cache as required by this section of the guidelines. As narcissa mentioned, this provision is rarely invoked. I think that's because geocachers are largely self-policing. The "naughty swag" tends to be removed by the next responsible geocacher to visit. When I do that, I typically mention the prohibited item in my log and I include a citation to the Cache Contents guideline. This begs the question: Would you disable a cache and ask the owner to clean up a religious tract if it was reported in the cache?

Sure, not a problem! I'm use to it. I'm a married man, after all! We're always wrong! Often, we read guidelines and apply our personal views where they have no place to be applied. I'm glad that you have realized your error. It takes a big man to admit his mistakes. Can we move on now?

Really? Which guideline would that be? I'm offereing this handy linky to the contents guideline to save time. A cache page may not solicit, but there isn't anything about that in the contents guideline. I'm kinda impartial to finding religious tracts in caches. On the one hand, they are not going to influence my thoughts. On the other hand you have more fingers they provide excellent fair trading swag for my Sweet Potato tracts. I'm sure the rude and oppressive old-timers just knew it was a matter of time before that got posted. From the guidelines: Caches that Solicit Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda. Sure, the cache itself may not be a platform for religious propaganda, but by placing religious material into the cache, you are now using the cache as a platform. To each their own. You choose to leave it in, then by all means, go for it. I will do what I feel is in keeping with the guidelines. Caches perceived "TO BE POSTED" for religious... Do you really not understand the difference here? Someone placing an item in my cache does not change what I, as the cache owner, placed the cache to be.

Lunch is just a couple hours away... Thanks a lot!

"Solicitations are off-limits. For example, caches perceived to be posted for religious, political, charitable or social agendas are not permitted. Geocaching is supposed to be a light, fun activity, not a platform for an agenda." Cache owners can be held responsible for objects placed in the cache by others. If I decided to drop a handful of Green Party pamphlets, or stickers that say "God probably doesn't exist, so go on and enjoy your life" stickers into a geocache, they could cause the cache to be reported for promoting an agenda even though the owner wasn't the one who put them there. We all think our causes are worthwhile, but geocaches aren't the place for them. People who *want* to expose their kids to certain things can find those opportunities elsewhere. Geocaches should remain free of all agendas - that's why the guidelines address this. Groundspeak is concerned about the content on the website and ensuring that the content on the website does not solicit. Groundspeak does not control the content of the Geocache container. You've been around long enough to know this and yet you still use the argument. The shame in all of this is that others seem to think you are making sense... I suppose even Charles Manson managed a few followers.