infiniteMPG

Not much solution coming out of this debate and it's not much of a debate. In a nutshell some people say they don't condone fake logs and would delete anything obviously bogus, but they're not going to employ a detective to find out if every log entry is valid. The others seem to think if you don't investigate to the fullest extent of your ability if each and every log entry is valid then you're condoning and encouraging it which will lead to the demise of geocaching. I haven't seen anyone post anything in here except (as stated several times before) one virtual cache with issues that had some due to fake logs, and one regular cache that someone went to that they assumed had a fake log yet you can't prove it didn't disappear after they last people logged the find. Two caches out of 516,339 isn't a very big problem. Where's the proof that a problem exists?????

I beg to differ. The very FIRST line of the geocaching guidelines states "These are listing guidelines only." so there is no "agreement" nor is there any "requirements" to do a dang thing! And if someone choses to do nothing then the reviewer can archive the cache. Each person has freedom to choose what to do or not to do and no one is mandated or required to do anything. As far as deleting log listsing the guidelines state "Delete any logs that appear to be bogus, counterfeit, off topic, or not within the stated requirements." and you may notice the word APPEAR in there. Even as it's just guidelines it states to delete the logs that APPEAR to be bogus, which can also be interpretted to mean "you can leave fake logs that look real". No where can I find it states to investigate logs, do handwriting analysis, validiate visits or anything like that. No, no one CONDONES fake logs, no one agrees with fake logs, no one would allow a fake log to exist on their cache page if they knew about it. The whole debate is about what extent each of us will go to in order to validate the log is real. As far as needing to visit cache sites to validate integrity, the guidelines state "As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.)." and there is no reference to what that "periodic" period needs to be other then checking on caches that have reported issues. Some people may choose their period of time is a week, for others it may be every decade, it's up to the owner if there's no reported issues. A responsible cache owner will check their caches regular enough to be sure they're all good and functional, they will replace full or wet logs, they will defend their caches from muggles, irrisponsible cachers, and mother nature, they will resolve reported issues as soon as they can, they will try to keep the game fun for everyone playing, and they will delete logs that are detrimental to their caches and the game including ones that devuldge everything about a hide, use inappropriate language, are off color or off topic, or bogus but it is up to each cache owner to make that determination. >>>iMPG steps down off soapbox and walks away in a huff

I read posts talking about one virtual cache being archived and that may of been due in some way to fake logs. With 516,339 caches out there, that's about 0.000002%. Also read about one person seeking a missing cache due to a supposed fake log making it sound like it was there but no way to prove it didn't go missing AFTER the person logged their find. Maybe everyone strongly opposed to fake logs should lay out some facts. How many fake logs have you determined 100% to be faked and not mistakes and then personally deleted????? With about a quarter million logs entered a week, unless it's a big number it doesn't sound like we're fixing much of a problem.

We had given the previous manager an info sheet with their trail map overlaid with the GPS tracks and waymarks where every cache was. A printout of the cache pages and a description of the hides (for their reference). It didn't get handed down to the new manager but it will be replaced. Great idea!!! Didn't think of that. They are savy enough to have a nice website and they respond to emails so that would be easy to even set it up for them. A couple of us locals are yakkin' about having an event there as they have a nice boardwalk, observation tower, and a big covered learning center with fire pits and facilities. I'm thinking they will also promote geocaching there on their website when it's all said and done. We have several individual caches there and then in each is clues to a full sized ammo can bonus cache. We also placed one just outside their gate so if people come when they're not open they can log a find and see the place from outside the gates and not walk away empty handed. Like I said, those kind of places are rare and nice finds

Especially in places like formal parks, preserves and managed lands. I currently have a little privately owned nature park working with me as we placed caches there with permission of the 'previous' manager who failed to pass the information along to the new manager. Now that the new manager knows he is excited about it and wants to promote geocaching in his park and even have geocachers tell them they are geocachers when they arrive so they can see how much geocaching activity they get. He has also granted permission to visit the park outside of operating hours for maintenance and we're working on an information sheet so the workers there will know where everything is, and be able to offer additional 'hints' to cachers who may have problems with something. It's nice to find places like that. Some others, like the manager of a local state park, shuts us out every time we approach him yet other nearby state parks have dozens of caches on their lands. There is some personal vairables that affect how things turn out. All we can do is try.

In Florida you can fish on water on your own property without a license and you can also fish in salt water as long as you are fishing from land (or a pier or something attached to the land). Just like different properties and different states and different counties have different regulations, you have to work with what you've got.

I think if given a choice on any public land, they'd prefer a camo'ed box tucked neatly under a fallen tree to to the billion tons of empty cans, plastic water bottles, chip bags, cigarette butts, shopping bags, and other debris that is regulated by litter laws but somehow still gets left behind in all those places. If they understood the concept of CITO then they'd probably encourage it to clean up after the people who's activities are not supposed to leave anything behind but still do.

A first hand example of a problem with this is a 5 part multi I have with about a dozen mile hike to do it. To confirm they found the final they email the text on a hat in the final. The cacher with the FTF escorted another cacher thru the series (and others) on a nice Florida summer day (about a bazillion degrees). The new cacher was hurting from, to be politically correct I'll just say a hairline recession issue and no cover, so when they completed the final, he took the hat out as a trade item to wear. When they got back to the parking area, the FTF cacher realized what they had done so it was a pretty big chore to replace that later (and we didn't want to use the same hat for obvious reasons). But if confirmation codes disappear then you end up with a bunch of chaos, a bunch of ticked off cachers, and a big mess. To apply this across the board would be rediculous as I don't see the fake logging issue being much more then an annoyance.

It would definitely impact my choice of caches to seek. We sometimes do a run around a big preserve or park and then can't log finds for a day or two. A couple times we have had to really look at our downloaded tracks and cache descriptions to remember what was what. If I had to write down and track codes from every cache I'd be in a world of hurt, especially since my amazing (lack of) organizational skills would probably have me spending hours digging under my Jeep seats for that little scrap of paper I wrote them on

Hmmm, bringing up another point. GPS is Global Positioning System and even though it is highly accepted that it means a GPSr, Global Positioning System Receiver, it could be interpretted to be any system that allows you to find a global position (not necessarily YOUR global position). Google Earth could be used to find a global position, as could reading the stars, looking at a compass, observing land features, or a simple map. It's not the traditional way of finding geocaches but if people use alternative methods to find geocaches and they have fun doing it, would you even know they did so (they found the cache, signed the log sheet, logged a visit) so what would it hurt? I have had people who were not even geocaching, didn't have their GPSr with them, parked somewhere and a cache that was not covered or rehidden well was exposed and found. I wouldn't deny them the find just because they didn't have their GPS in their hand. And when we're in heavy tree cover, the GPS just gets us close and then it's up to geosenses to find the cache. So what's the difference if Google Earth got us close? Geocaching should not be expected to be the same experience for everyone. But as long as it's fun then great!!!!

Then the owner of a virtual needs to look at it from a faker's point of view and try to make it tougher to get the info needed. True, true, but as with anything, if anyone feels strong enough in their conviction on something then they should be willing to incur the additional work to resolve the situation they believe in rather then just complaining about it.

Don't see that as an issue if someone truly wants to cut down on false logs on their caches. I won't be doing it, but it's kind of time people stop whining about the problem and do something about it if they think it's such a bad thing...

It only stops being fun if you let what the others are doing affect you personally. Ever play recreational golf? If the guy in the cart besdide you knocks strokes off his game every hole are you going to wrap your driver around his head or quit playing? PUH-lease.... The example given is someone doing something DIRECTLY to YOU. The better example would be if your friend spikes his own drink with salt and complains about how bad it tastes. Would this change what you were doing?

I have some all day hikes or all day paddles to get to some of my hides and I'll gladly accept volunteers to personally regularly visit my hides and validate the signatures... if we owners were required to presonally visit all our hides on a regular basis to validate signatures then you'll see the 5/5's disappear and the 1/1's pop up everywhere. Dang, this is a friggin' hobby last time I checked.hob·by n., pl. hob·bies. An activity or interest pursued outside one's regular occupation and engaged in primarily for pleasure. If anyone gets "pleasure" in hunting down false logs and deleting them then go for it! Personally I don't condone them but I don't get any pleasure hunting them down....

I thought this thread was about the degredation of geocaching and not the degredation of America....

Anyone that puts anything in place to try to keep people in line will sooner or later be compromised. Same people that make radar guns for the police make the radar detectors for the public. If people are strong in their position to prevent false logs as much as possible then the code in the cache would be a quick fix. Not perfect, but easy to do. Agreed! I wouldn't even do the code thing myself because I don't see it as a big problem. I don't condone it, but I'm not going to waste my time investigating it. I do have one 5/5 with a code thing as I really want to confirm someone found it. Another trick you could do is to have people write the TIME they found the cache in the log book. Then they have to email you the TIME when the LAST finder found it as well as their time. That way you'd always have a check of the find AND no one could cheat past it as the text they need to email would change after every find

Not changing the "regular" cache in any way, just an additional logging step for the seeker. And gives the owner a quick and easy way to monitor finds. No email with the code/hint/word, delete the log. Can't get much simpler then that....

If anyone owns caches and is worried about the potential of fake logs, add a code in every cache to be emailed to you to validate every find. Still ways around it but that's the best you'll do... What's the problem?

Flipping error on Forums page and message got posted twice.... grumble-grumble

This is on a virtual, any evidence on a regular cache???

The examples given of how to be "flagged" a log "might be fake" are rare. So other then checking logs vs. signatures (and from the sound of it, checking handwriting against examples with groups of cachers) how do you validate a log entry??????? Please tell us how you would do this on the following examples : ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- - A paddle only cache that involves several hours on a river to reach - A hiking cache deep in a preserve requiring dozens of miles of ground to be covered on foot ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- And how do you validate that a cacher found all the stages of a multi and was not just given the final coords by a friend????? Nobody condones a fake log entry but after a while this starts sounding more like a witch hunt then a way to preserve the sanctity of geocaching. How many fake entries have each of you actually found, how many caches do you have and how much time are you willing to spend running around to do nothing but validate log entries? And I don't mean just checking them when you do maintenance, I mean a trip JUST to check logs.

No one said they condone cheaters or liers, but not many people have the time, patience, or desire to spend any of this precious and limited life of ours trying to crucify cheaters in something as trivial as a recreational activity. I would rather pass my time smiling after my next hide or find then waste one minute playing detective and occasionally feel some vedictive justification in flogging someone who armchair geocached in order to stroke their tiny little ego. I also don't defend or condone people who are just too friggin' lazy or don't have the mental capacity to figure out the highly challenging task of using their turn signals, but I'm also not going to follow them home just so I can rub their nose on the turn signal lever. If this world or the people in it were perfect, it would be one massively boring place....

I always thought that there was THREE kinds of people in this world, those who are good at math, and those who aren't...

There is no way this thread is *ever* going to end as long as that groundhog keeps seeing his shadow. I don't see any way out of it. He's got to be stopped. And I have to stop him.....

Huh???? Okay, it's wrong to drive 1mph over the speed limit. It's wrong to stand in the 10 items or less line with 11 items. It's wrong to use the word "ain't". It's wrong to not put recyclable items in your trash can. It's wrong to smoke. It's wrong to cross the road where's there's not a designated crossing marked. It's wrong to drink milk after the expiration date. It's wrong to turn without using your turn signal properly. It's wrong to follow the car in front of you less then 1 car length per 10mph of speed. Hmmm, people do all these wrong things all the time and I didn't notice the anarchy sign lighting up....