seneca

Do you think thismight be too difficult for a string of 6 virtual caches? I have the exact coordinates - I just haven't had the time to actually visit the sites. (I may consider registering the domain Lunarcaching.com )

DON'T: Post critical logs. DO: privately E-mail the cache owner with any concerns you have regarding the cache - using tact and diplomacy --- remember it is very easy to inadvertantly offend when communicating online.

DON'T: Post critical logs. DO: privately E-mail the cache owner with any concerns you have regarding the cache - using tact and diplomacy --- remember it is very easy to inadvertantly offend when communicating online.

quote:Originally posted by mrcpu: My point is that in order to set a VC do you not have to visit the location yourself? Nope.

quote:Originally posted by mrcpu: Shouldn't the owner of this have visited each location before posting this? I am a purist when it comes to VC's. I believe that you should only post a VC if you have stood in the location with your GPS There has been lots of discussion on the forums on these type of caches(here for instance) and the general feeling appears to be that they are not against the "rules" (of which there are virtually none) but that some are very lame and not worthwhile and some are very good and would be of interest to many GeoCachers. IMHO, think your Mount Everest example would fit into the former category and this one fits the latter. It will get me off my butt, and will let me use my GPS to navigate to somewhere I haven't been to before and then let me share my find with others. A virtual geocache can't be too "impure" if it does that.

I posted this on another thread a few weeks back, but I thought that it might be worthwhile posting it here again: People who play this game do take “pride” in preparing and placing their caches. The record of their cache, being the cache log, sort of becomes their “pride and joy”. The posted logs are publicly broadcast. When leaving a critical log you are taking a very significant risk that you will be: 1) hurting a person’s pride; 2) Defiling his/her pride and joy; 3) doing this all publicly, and thus shooting an arrow through his/her ego. I presume that with a lot of thought and a lot of tact, you could post a criticism without causing any damage, but I doubt it. Here is my two bits worth as to how valid concerns and criticisms should be handled: 1. If your criticism is merely due to your own personal idiosyncrasy, that doesn’t have any effect on the sport as a whole, then nothing need to be said or done. If you’re not sure raise it as an issue on the forums (without identifying the cache). 2. If you feel that the cacher has really done something that, if he/he continues to do it, will adversely affect the sport in the long run, then email him/her privately and as tactfully as possible (without being arrogant or condescending) and explain your concern. 3. If you feel that other players in general should be aware of your concern, then bring it up on this Forum as a general concern without naming any specific person or cache 4. If you feel that it is really necessary that subsequent searchers for a particular cache should be warned of your noted criticisms/concerns then with considerable trepidation you should thoughtfully post these concerns on the log in the most tactful, non-critical manner as possible. Example: “ Wow! I really enjoyed the view - had I known it was going to be a bathing suit optional beach I would have left the kids at home and enjoyed it even more!!” I think that if you were to take the above approach, raising your concerns would be accepted for the intended purpose – to keep Geocaching a fun sport for everyone. We can help each other to make sure it stays that way. There is really no need (and for myself, no desire) to get negative and critical in a manner that risks hurting feelings and causing anger. If you would rather take that risk, then don’t be surprised with the response.

I posted this on another thread a few weeks back, but I thought that it might be worthwhile posting it here again: People who play this game do take “pride” in preparing and placing their caches. The record of their cache, being the cache log, sort of becomes their “pride and joy”. The posted logs are publicly broadcast. When leaving a critical log you are taking a very significant risk that you will be: 1) hurting a person’s pride; 2) Defiling his/her pride and joy; 3) doing this all publicly, and thus shooting an arrow through his/her ego. I presume that with a lot of thought and a lot of tact, you could post a criticism without causing any damage, but I doubt it. Here is my two bits worth as to how valid concerns and criticisms should be handled: 1. If your criticism is merely due to your own personal idiosyncrasy, that doesn’t have any effect on the sport as a whole, then nothing need to be said or done. If you’re not sure raise it as an issue on the forums (without identifying the cache). 2. If you feel that the cacher has really done something that, if he/he continues to do it, will adversely affect the sport in the long run, then email him/her privately and as tactfully as possible (without being arrogant or condescending) and explain your concern. 3. If you feel that other players in general should be aware of your concern, then bring it up on this Forum as a general concern without naming any specific person or cache 4. If you feel that it is really necessary that subsequent searchers for a particular cache should be warned of your noted criticisms/concerns then with considerable trepidation you should thoughtfully post these concerns on the log in the most tactful, non-critical manner as possible. Example: “ Wow! I really enjoyed the view - had I known it was going to be a bathing suit optional beach I would have left the kids at home and enjoyed it even more!!” I think that if you were to take the above approach, raising your concerns would be accepted for the intended purpose – to keep Geocaching a fun sport for everyone. We can help each other to make sure it stays that way. There is really no need (and for myself, no desire) to get negative and critical in a manner that risks hurting feelings and causing anger. If you would rather take that risk, then don’t be surprised with the response.

I just thought these recent comments of Jeremy's deserved to be on a thread with a more upbeat topic name! quote:Posted by Jeremy:However, over almost the last two years I have been eating drinking and sleeping (as well as dreaming) geocaching. I wake up to it and I check on it before going to sleep every night. And as a "dreamer" I have come up with new and innovative ways to use the technology. Most, if not all of which does not fit within the realm of geocaching. As a result, I created Groundspeak, and incorporated Grounded, Inc. as the company (though we will now on be called Groundspeak) to explore these technologies. Geocaching.com as an entity has been rolled into Groundspeak because, frankly, it was easier. It also will allow me to capitalize on the technology of Groundspeak to improve Geocaching. We definitely intend to make Groundspeak profitable. I have no intent to deceive you about that. But Groundspeak will not be Geocaching. I suppose since I'm so close to it I understand the distinction so it's harder to explain. The Charter Membership is a Groundspeak Charter Membership. I do this because I feel that folks who help fund the site of Geocaching should be thanked in the form of a membership to Groundspeak when that comes to pass. I guess it is sort of like a Magic Kingdom pass at Disney. It's just that Groundspeak proper hasn't opened yet. [This message was edited by seneca on March 09, 2002 at 07:09 PM.]

quote: Originally posted by Alan2:If you would come out and say straight out, "Yes, I intend to make a profit on this - it has now become a fully commercial site. While I enjoy doing this before as a labor of love, things have changed" I could accept that. Alan2, I had this same type of confusion and questions a day ago: quote: Originally posted by Seneca (different thread):Jeremy, if this is a business - good on you - I hope you succeed - just be up front with us. If however, your only motivation is to strengthen the GeoCommunity, then, notwithstanding that you have the generosity of a saint, you still must account for the funds you raise. Don't cross the ethical line ( that many well known television Evangelists have) by operating a profit motivated business, while pretending that it is not. and Jeremy unequivocally cleared it up in my mind: quote: Originally posted by Jeremy (different thread):Grounded, Inc. (Groundspeak) is a commercial entity. It always has been. I don't think I've been fooling anyone here. (Grounded, Inc. is the owner of GeoCaching.com) After that response, I am sure we will not be seeing any financial reports (unless the company goes public). I think that Jeremy may have some genuine internal conflict (with himself) here: he genuinely wants everybody to have the best time possible using this site and will do so even if there is little or no economic reward for him... but another part of him is naturally telling him that if there is an opportunity to make a buck.. then why not. I think the way he presents his motives, is to ensure that people like UtahJean don't get upset or offended (as she did when I referred to chartered members as "customers"): quote:Originally posted by UtahJean Please, please don't refer to me as a 'customer'. I certainly don't mind contributing this nominal fee for the privilege of geocaching, but I don't want to feel that I'm purchasing something. I think the Jeremy over the last few days has been quite up front where he is coming from. I think the lingering confusion may be due to the blurring of his motivations. I don't believe he is being dishonest or deliberately misleading.

I am sorry ... I was being facetious - I just couldn't get the little winkie guy to work I AM PROUD TO BE A GEOCACHER!! WEEKENDS RULE!!

I am sorry ... I was being facetious - I just couldn't get the little winkie guy to work I AM PROUD TO BE A GEOCACHER!! WEEKENDS RULE!!

quote:I find it amusing that almost all of the negative critizism comes from people who still have Geocacher in their name titles. Oh, I hope my money order gets there soon so I can demonstrate my superior status as a paid up subscriber. Then my concerns/comments might mean something. I can't stand the shame of being of appearing on this forum as a mere "Geocacher"....

quote:I find it amusing that almost all of the negative critizism comes from people who still have Geocacher in their name titles. Oh, I hope my money order gets there soon so I can demonstrate my superior status as a paid up subscriber. Then my concerns/comments might mean something. I can't stand the shame of being of appearing on this forum as a mere "Geocacher"....

quote:Have you read http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=8340911793&r=3170941793#3170941793 forum, or the more recent replies on http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=5980944593 one? Yes I have read all of these -- although I agree some responses have had a whining (and sometimes rude) tone to them -- the gripes are overall legitimate (not necessarily correct but legitimate). The main complaints are MOC's (being construed as "pay for play" and identification of paid up members. There are valid arguments that these changes may impact on the utility and inclusiveness of the site (I don't happen to agree) which could impact on the value of the site from a customer's point of view. I am certain that Jeremy would much rather have these concerns brought to his attention than having them surpressed --- they are much more useful to him and the site than a bunch of "thank you Jeremy" posts (don't get me wrong - if you are thankful for Jeremy's efforts - by all means , say so). OK OK - I will say so... Thank you Jeremy (I tried to put a "smilie" here but it wouldn't work :-)) A Happy (soon-to-be) Customer

quote:Have you read http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=8340911793&r=3170941793#3170941793 forum, or the more recent replies on http://opentopic.Groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=1750973553&f=3000917383&m=5980944593 one? Yes I have read all of these -- although I agree some responses have had a whining (and sometimes rude) tone to them -- the gripes are overall legitimate (not necessarily correct but legitimate). The main complaints are MOC's (being construed as "pay for play" and identification of paid up members. There are valid arguments that these changes may impact on the utility and inclusiveness of the site (I don't happen to agree) which could impact on the value of the site from a customer's point of view. I am certain that Jeremy would much rather have these concerns brought to his attention than having them surpressed --- they are much more useful to him and the site than a bunch of "thank you Jeremy" posts (don't get me wrong - if you are thankful for Jeremy's efforts - by all means , say so). OK OK - I will say so... Thank you Jeremy (I tried to put a "smilie" here but it wouldn't work :-)) A Happy (soon-to-be) Customer

Thank you Jeremy for clarifying this for me on another recent thread: quote:Grounded, Inc. (Groundspeak) is a commercial entity. It always has been. I don't think I've been fooling anyone here. I wish you the best success - hope you make a million! At least you will get my $30.00 - its on its way. A Satisfied (soon to be) Customer

quote:Grounded, Inc. (Groundspeak) is a commercial entity. It always has been. I don't think I've been fooling anyone here. Jeremy, you may not have been intentionally fooling anyone here --- but certainly some people have been confused about your motives and some will be surprised to see your acknowledgment that this is a for profit business. This is in part by the way you have presented your motives: Here are some quotes from your site: "Geocaching.com was created with the sole purpose to promote the new sport of Geocaching." "Any advertising dollars on the web site go to help fund the equipment and bandwidth to support the site, as well as promote the overall sport." "To keep up with the cost of bandwidth, machine upgrades and maintainence, and maintain our inventory of frozen burritos and Eazy Cheese, we need to move to a subscription basis for newer features for the web site. Ultimately it benefits you since we can better provide new ideas and features to improve the Geocaching experience. " Don't you agree that by reading information like this it is understandable that people may have gotten the impression that this is a "non-profit" endeavor of yours? I don't need to tell you that you have done an amazing job here. I am sure it will be commercial success - you deserve it and it will be the best way to keep Geocaching alive and well. But please... make sure that people are not confused as to what type of site this is... I have a feeling that your ethics would not allow you to knowingly do this.

quote:Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup: I find it amazing how many people are willing to reap the advantages of other people's hard work, but act outraged when something extra is offered at a nominal fee I've been following the forums quite closely in the last few days and I've not seen too many people "outraged" over Jeremy's apparent decision to change Geocaching from a hobby to a business. I've seen healthy response from his prospective customers commenting on new features that they think may negatively affect the site. Jeremy's business success depends on this feedback so he can develop the most attractive product possible and ensure that his customer base grows. I think the business model is much better for the sport and is going to bring much better features as it has already done.

quote:Originally posted by Zuckerruebensirup: I find it amazing how many people are willing to reap the advantages of other people's hard work, but act outraged when something extra is offered at a nominal fee I've been following the forums quite closely in the last few days and I've not seen too many people "outraged" over Jeremy's apparent decision to change Geocaching from a hobby to a business. I've seen healthy response from his prospective customers commenting on new features that they think may negatively affect the site. Jeremy's business success depends on this feedback so he can develop the most attractive product possible and ensure that his customer base grows. I think the business model is much better for the sport and is going to bring much better features as it has already done.

We are being persuaded to pay a subscription fee by a compelling moral argument: We're all in this together. There is no free ride. Someone has to pay for this. I cannot continue to handle this burden myself. I need to eat. Please pay! I call this the "moral appeal". This is the basis on which most non-profit societies and associations are formed. (ie Public Television) The moral appeal, requires that the leaders of such organizations be financially accountable to those who provide support. Jeremy could make (but hasn’t made) a different but equally compelling pitch: This is my business. Expect me to profit. I am offering to provide an excellent service for an excellent price. Pay me and I will deliver! I call this the "commercial approach". This is the basis on which all businesses operate. The only obligation these organizations have to those who provide financial support it is to deliver the product. There is no obligation to account. I for one believe this would be a completely valid approach for Jeremy, for which I would be willing to pay my $30.00. However, in view of the fact that Jeremy has opted for the moral appeal, I believe he has taken on the moral obligation to account to those who support him. Does he intend to demonstrate his sincerity by being open and transparent (ie. accountable) to those in the Geocaching Community who sends him dollars, by posting to this forum relevant financial statements (revenues/expenses) including the salary that he is going to be paid? Will he reduce the annual fees (or even pay some of it back) if the moral appeal produces a surplus? (If the reason subscribers are paying him, is to cover costs, and let him eat, then wouldn’t it be immoral for him to pocket any surplus?) Jeremy, if this is a business - good on you - I hope you succeed - just be up front with us. If however, your only motivation is to strengthen the GeoCommunity, then, notwithstanding that you have the generosity of a saint, you still must account for the funds you raise. Don’t cross the ethical line ( that many well known television Evangelists have) by operating a profit motivated business, while pretending that it is not. Whichever way, my gut feeling is that you will take the high road.