caccbag

Absolutrely - but blinkies bore me. This cache was intended to bring families to a historic site and supply them a wonderful cache...not a chance to sign a slip of paper and add 1 more to their overall fund count. A hide-a-key may have lasted a week at most before being muggled. I chose not to move it but publish it on other caching sites. I accepted that. Others here (you) seem to have a problem with it.

uh... That's simply not true. You just don't have a case. Appeal rejected! Next case! Did you or your wife write that? Nice open mind.

This seems a bit disingenuous, since you were trying to use the cache in question to advertise a friend's store. I can think of few things that would zap my family's enjoyment of geocaching more than blatant advertising would. I suppose a cache filled with excrement and/or sharp objects would be even less fun than a cachevertisement. I was? So honestly (try) how many ultramarathoners would be sent to my friends' store by this cache. Really? How many? Maybe, maybe, I will grant that one person who has run 50K may come to that store due to the cache. Other than, I dare you to really justisy that allegation. Come on - I am waiting. Find me one cache that has more than 3 ultramarathoners in the world find and I will retract everything I have said. Or are you too busy ignoring your own caches to count the 1 or 2 runners to reply? And shame on you for even suggesting our caches are not intended to promote family and enjoyment, Your own selfish agenda aside, shame on you. Find any one of our caches and I dare you to say that again. Shame.

Hmmm.... first I did not come here for your claimed purpose and never sought support (that would be like going into a Trekkie convention and expecting the crowd to support an initiative to make Battlestar Gallatica the new icon...no offense Spock). Please look at the original post and my reply. It was in response to a question about commercial caches. It was only when others asked for more info did I post. Second, please go find any of the caches we planted and allege we don't put in effort - in fact, please search, find and tell us how we can improve our Tolkien series or our Dirty (Bakers) Dozen series - happy to accept your expert advice. And, you should go back and actually read...GS never offered suggestions other than to move the cache. I would prefer they come out and say the guidelines are rules and that there is no appeal process. Sorry for throwing a fit....I mean questioning Groundspeak.

The Ontario reviewers seem to draw the line at naming the store or requiring people to go into the store. This cache involves neither. You can report it if you wish. No need to as it has been archived due to the cache owner's inability to comply with the guidleines requiring maintenance. Her violation of the rules resulted in its archiving already. No, that cache is still active. You may report it if you wish. Sorry, confused it with your other 10 archived caches due to your rule violations. And no I won't report, unlike you I get no pleasure making caching less fun for others. So long as families can still enjoy a cache, that is what I think is important....sorry if allowing your cache to stand offends your sense that others need to abide 110% by all guidelines. Hope my willingness to let your cache cross the iron-clad lines of the guidleines doesn't upset you as much my attempt to use published procedures to sek an exemption.

Yes. You're new. Yeah, we all know "TFTC" stands for thanks for the cache. And includes the word "thanks". I think Sbell11 has beat that into our heads. Point is new geocacher's weren't logging caches online like that say 5 years ago, en masse. Where were all these "non-wordsmiths" back then? I certainly didn't drop any "TFTC" logs on caches when I started in 2003. What happened? We put a lot of effort into our caches and we love it when the logs give more than a "TFTC" or "Sent from my blackberry", but so long as people find it and like it, that is good enough for us.

The Ontario reviewers seem to draw the line at naming the store or requiring people to go into the store. This cache involves neither. You can report it if you wish. No need to as it has been archived due to the cache owner's inability to comply with the guidleines requiring maintenance. Her violation of the rules resulted in its archiving already.

" "Again, this would all seem more relevant had I come into the forum to make a claim for special treatment." It is strange and unfortunate for you, but repeating a false statement 5 times, 10 times, 50 times or 100 times does not make it true. Since you refuse to read or are inable to comprehend my repeated statements that I am trying to improve the application of the guidelines for ALL we can just accept the fact that your computer must have defective screen that does not allow you to read. I see....so your own personal circumstances justify you to ignore repeated reviewers' warnings and the guidlines you cite as gospel. Hmmm...good thing you don't think your own circumstances' grant you special excuses. Nearly 100 caches and we MAINTAIN them all. Guess one of us can read and support that guideline and not seek special personal excuses.

Do you really have issues with reading? I don't want to insult you if that is some sort of imparment but since you seem to not read what I write it does make me question. "You can't point to those problematic caches as an excuse for publishing your own. Precedent is addressed in the guidelines." Did I say they were problematic? I said they were examples of the inconsistent application of the guidelines. Waymarking, the end of virtual geocaches, power trails, the bizarre situation in Texas with only one reviewer and a huge backlog, weird inconsistencies with Earthcache guidelines... and that's just in the last couple of weeks. I read some - wow, scathing! Please, don't hold back in the future. Let your feelings known. The one or two posts that seemed real complaints seemed like you were looking for special treatment to appease your own personal concerns. No, actually they did not. I thought you were trying to improve a site...hopefully you weren't personally attacked by others who felt they were better than you and preached down to you and said the fact you dared raise a question meant you lacked an ability to understand rules. Wouldn't wish that on anyone. One of my caches is currently disabled. I disabled it today. I see that some of my caches that have been archived for years still have NM icons on them, but... they're archived. This would all seem more relevant if I had come into the forum to yell about Groundspeak not giving me special treatment, which I did not. Hmmm......: November 20, 2008 by anakerose (1481 found) Is this one going to be replaced? View Log September 4, 2008 by narcissa (1555 found) Cache has been muggled. It will be replaced shortly. View Log September 3, 2008 by gmoffatt (418 found) Looked for a long time to no avail. Will try again next time I am in town. Just Ducky View Log August 25, 2008 by K-Town Kachers (64 found) Nice east find! View Log -------- August 8, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. ARCHIVED: No Action Taken After Being Disabled Previously a 'Reviewer Note / Disabled' was placed on this listing in regard to some issues that were noticed. Since the current owner has made no status change or updates on this geocache in a timely fashion following that note, this listing is being ARCHIVED. You may request that this listing be unarchived by email as provided below. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email with GC# through my profile (visit link) Guide to Getting your Cache Listed Quickly (visit link) View Log July 10, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. Extended Disable: Needs action from owner Quite some time has passed since this listing was disabled. Please see the follow item taken from the listing guidelines. As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time - normally a few weeks - in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing. Please see the specific listing guidelines about 'Maintenance' (visit link) Please have this geocache enabled again within a short time or archive the listing. However if you have extenuating reasons for a delay that are beyond your control then please use the Write Note log type to detail them. If such a case exists you will still need to check on the location and post a follow up on a monthly basis to demonstrate that you are still actively attempting to make this listing available. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email through (visit link) View Log May 1, 2008 by narcissa (1555 found) This one needs a little TLC. I'll put it back soon with a new, dry log book. View Log April 24, 2008 by Team Polarbear (1389 found) Found this one easily, log was damp, container also, so took a few minutes to try and dry things out before signing the log. View Log (I think that is almost half a year between a NM and no action leading to archiving) and two reviewer warning ignored.) ______ August 8, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. ARCHIVED: No Action Taken After Being Disabled Previously a 'Reviewer Note / Disabled' was placed on this listing in regard to some issues that were noticed. Since the current owner has made no status change or updates on this geocache in a timely fashion following that note, this listing is being ARCHIVED. You may request that this listing be unarchived by email as provided below. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email with GC# through my profile (visit link) Guide to Getting your Cache Listed Quickly (visit link) View Log July 10, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. Extended Disable: Needs action from owner Quite some time has passed since this listing was disabled. Please see the follow item taken from the listing guidelines. As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time - normally a few weeks - in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing. Please see the specific listing guidelines about 'Maintenance' (visit link) Please have this geocache enabled again within a short time or archive the listing. However if you have extenuating reasons for a delay that are beyond your control then please use the Write Note log type to detail them. If such a case exists you will still need to check on the location and post a follow up on a monthly basis to demonstrate that you are still actively attempting to make this listing available. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email through (visit link) View Log May 1, 2008 by narcissa (1555 found) This one needs a little TLC. Somehow, the duct tape that was providing some extra support to the magnet came off, and the container separated from the magnet. I'll put out a new, dry one shortly. (that is 4 months no action and 2 reviewer notes) ___________________ August 8, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. ARCHIVED: No Action Taken After Being Disabled Previously a 'Reviewer Note / Disabled' was placed on this listing in regard to some issues that were noticed. Since the current owner has made no status change or updates on this geocache in a timely fashion following that note, this listing is being ARCHIVED. You may request that this listing be unarchived by email as provided below. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email with GC# through my profile (visit link) Guide to Getting your Cache Listed Quickly (visit link) View Log July 10, 2008 by CacheDrone (2 found) Hello fellow geocacher. I'm one of the volunteer reviewers for Ontario. Extended Disable: Needs action from owner Quite some time has passed since this listing was disabled. Please see the follow item taken from the listing guidelines. As the cache owner, you are also responsible for physically checking your cache periodically, and especially when someone reports a problem with the cache (missing, damaged, wet, etc.). You may temporarily disable your cache to let others know not to hunt for it until you have a chance to fix the problem. This feature is to allow you a reasonable time - normally a few weeks - in which to arrange a visit to your cache. In the event that a cache is not being properly maintained, or has been temporarily disabled for an extended period of time, we may archive or transfer the listing. Please see the specific listing guidelines about 'Maintenance' (visit link) Please have this geocache enabled again within a short time or archive the listing. However if you have extenuating reasons for a delay that are beyond your control then please use the Write Note log type to detail them. If such a case exists you will still need to check on the location and post a follow up on a monthly basis to demonstrate that you are still actively attempting to make this listing available. The full guidelines for placing a geocache can be found at (visit link) CacheDrone: Volunteer Geocaching Reviewer for Ontario Email through (visit link) View Log May 1, 2008 by narcissa (1555 found) This one needs a little TLC. I'll put it back soon with a new, dry log book. View Log (another 4 months and multiple reviewe notes ignored..did you need a link to the maintenance requirements for owners?) ___________ "Apparently I'm a bad owner for leaving it there. No comment. ------ I can see where you get your self-rightous justification to insult my critique of a GS' approach of cache owners. Thank you for putting your comments in perspective. ___________________

When you see caches that violate the guidelines, report them to a reviewer. Trying to use them as an excuse for violating the guidelines yourself won't work - the issue of precedent is clearly addressed in the guidelines. Remember, when you try to publish a cache, you must agree that you've read and understood the guidelines. By demonstrating that you haven't in such a manner, you're really damaging your credibility. Why should Groundspeak give you any further consideration if you haven't even made it past the first four paragraphs of the guidelines? Thank you....I was missing the insults. Should I have reported one that used the following: Narcissa's Micro #1 is strategically located close to a couple of great places to stock up on swag and other caching necessities. Nah - nothing commercial or promoting visiting a business there and spending money. I report a cache I believe is dangerous, misleading, needs maintenance or is offensive. If the reviewers have decided to grant an exemption to a guideline (as per the guideline's own language) then I am OK with it. Still waiting for the one single critique you have had of Groundspeak. Btw - since you feel free to attack me and accuse me of not knowing or complying with GS guidelines, you may want to revisit the one about cache owner's required to maintain their caches. That is 10 out of 18 of your caches that have been disabled/archived and in need of help for what, years? Including ignoring reviewer's request to address issues for 6+ months? How is that glass house? Clear enough to call the kettle black?

No I don't. I think they were correct in this particular situation. I don't hesitate to criticize Groundspeak when they make poor decisions. In this case, the decision they made was absolutely correct. The cache was blatantly commercial and did not deserve secondary consideration for any reason. Where? - please share with me one single example of you criticizing Groundspeak. One. Unless that means I am seeking special treatment. And per their own guideliens, even if presumed commercial, there is (claimed) an appeal process to get an exemption. Blatant? No, I do not believe you feel that - you say it because I called you on the many errors in your "argument of insults".

.... The reason the idea came to me is the shop goes by the name of ZombieRunners and I thought "perfect!" a zombie word in the old historic theater.... I think I spot a huge problem right there - the store name is practically in the cache title and that is a no-no. Do not assume that your appeal was pre-determined - I have seen exceptions made to the commercial guideline - yours was simply denied. Sorry but again - I think exceptions should be quite rare - not near automatic. I do believe the appeal was predetermined because teh reason it was rejected was that the cache violated a guideline which is why there is supposed to be an appeal. And the fact the store ZombieRunner contains teh word Zombie to me is not even close to having teh name. If I said "Zombie" to anyone - who would jump to teh fact it meant a running store? Yet, I see many caches that contain references to "Starbucks" or local businesses nearby or on which is planted the cache. Plus, there are many caches that use the link between a name (business, building, park, town, etc.) in the cache name. Simply put, the store name was not in the cache at all. Plus, most importantly, in all 3 reviewers notes and GS's own denial, that was never mentioned as an issue.

Please do not confuse teh original poster's questions with my issues. They are not the same. Best as I can tell, he was not seeking an exemption to have a cache placed in a business.

This is just hyperbole. You are not presenting a valid critique. You are simply complaining because Groundspeak didn't give you special treatment. Your story demonstrates an inappropriate sense of entitlement and a willful disregard for the guidelines. I don't think you should be surprised that Groundspeak would dismiss you when your behaviour is completely dismissive of Groundspeak, its representatives, and the geocaching community. Perhaps if you demonstrated even a basic awareness of the guidelines, you'd get a little more sympathy and flexibility. As it stands, it appears that you completely disregarded the guidelines when you created this cache. Given the considerable amount of time, money, and effort you claim you've put into it, it seems bizarre that you didn't consult a reviewer before putting the cache in place and trying to have it published. Tossing $150 into a geocache that clearly violates the guidelines without running it by a reviewer was simply foolish, and it is simply ridiculous for you to expect sympathy on that count. \ Please try and use more ad hominem attacks instead of reason and fact. I just don't see enough in your posts. I will repeat for the 3rd time for you (please find someone to read this to you) I DO NOT WANT SPECIAL TREATMENT. I WANT FAIR AND REASONABLE APPLICATION OF THE RULES FOR ALL. ALL (THAT MEANS MORE THAN ME...EVEN INCLUDES YOU). Nearly 100 caches published I think does show some a "basic understanding of the guidelines"....what I posted here shows a "basic understanding of the guidelines" - I followed the guidelines and I went up the appeal ladder which was rejected for the very reason it was presented - that a cache may appear to be presumed commercial but appeal if reasons can be presented otherwise. READ the guidelines before you preach them, maybe it is not me that lacks a basic understanding. Granted, I am not a multi-platnium earthcacher like some but I do my best not to start off insulting and attacking anyone that critiques Groundspeak. And your post clearly demonstrates that what I wrote is anything but hyperbole - it shows you feel that GS is beyond critique and just because I offer a critique, I must be seeking special treatment and that I must lacka ny basic understanding. How dare I question your religion! I do apologize for offering an opinion that differs from yoru own or your demigod GS. I am sorry you were exposed to a differing opinion. Hopefully you will recover.

OK - I agree with you. Not every place needs a cache. But this place is an historic movie theater. It has a retail establishment in the revamped section. The cache is a zombie theme played off of old movies, theaters, etc. It has information on the history of the historic part of town and the theater and is linked to website about historic theaters. The owners are personal friends and even then it took some eduaction on geocaching to get them to agree to place it there. They know they are prohibited from engaging with geocachers or trying to sell them stuff and I trust them at their word. Plus....the store is for equipment and supplies for ultramarathoners (people who run 50, 100, 200 mile footraces)....no disrespect but I doubt there are many in the geocaching community that would be a target audience for such a shop. The fear of any commercal pressure is minimal at best. The reason the idea came to me is the shop goes by the name of ZombieRunners and I thought "perfect!" a zombie word in the old historic theater. I am not saying do away with all rules or guidelines. I am not saying we alone deserve to be excused. I am saying that Groundspeak themselves needs to recognize that their own guidelines are only "generally" applied (it says that) and that exceptions are allowed within the rule if the "presumption" can be overcome. Yet, rather than saying "the facts you stated don't overcome the presumption" - it is rejecetd because it goes against the guidelines. This was the decision on the exception: "Thank you for your email and the chance to address your appeal. Essentially the information that the cache reviewers have provided about our updated guidelines is correct. While there may be some older cachers that require cachers to go inside commercial properties, we need to apply current guidelines to your new cache submission. We will not be able to make an exception for this cache. I am sorry, but hope you will be able to find another way to place the cache." We never said the reviewers were incorrect. We were seeking an exception from Groundspeak per their stated procedure. we were seeking to show that the presumption had been overcome. But what happened nullifies any bona fide appeal process since the result is predetermined (You can appeal for an exception if the cache goes against the guidelines but it will be denied because it goes against the guidelines). That coupled with the fact caches are allowed to be placed everyday (not what GS quoted as being a need to apply teh current guidelines) at "our favorite neighborhood pastry shop" or "we ate here and thought the view was fantastic" or "go to this Starbucks and the price of their latte is XYZ and fill in the 122.14.XYZ to get to the next coffee house" or "don't disturb the diners as you get the micro under the restaurant table"., etc. The type of potential sales pressure at these caches is greater than having a family go into an ultramarathon shop to get an ammo can filled with toys and trinkets (and every trackable was a Zombie related one, FTF prizes were Zombie patches and bracelets, etc.). We probably invested somewhere between $50 and $100 on this cache....now it goes to waste. I admit it - it will be wasted on the alternate sites as their members are a tiny fraction of geocaching.com. But those few can enjoy the special cache we created. We did not place it in a McDonalds or at the local used car shop or in a mall (like many taht exist around here and are published to this day). We placed it in an historic building that happened to have a retail shop aimed at probably 0.00000000001% of the community. And, just as information, here was the proposed cache wording: WHEN ZOMBIES ATTACK! (also titled: Having an Old Friend for Dinner) PLOT SUMMARY: The Undead terrorize geocachers in historic Palo Alto. OPENING SCENE: (Voice of Announcer): It is of great fear that we must report Zombies are roaming the streets. You may not be safe in your own home - as Zombies are everywhere. How do you protect yourself? Know these simple guidelines: 1) Zombies move slow.....but they keep moving no matter what. 2) Zombies enjoy a snack or two....usually it is someone you know (the snack that is....or the Zombie....worse case is when it is both). 3) Zombies can easily be detected if you are downwind from them. 4) Never give a Zombie a helping hand or a piece of your mind....it only makes them stronger (and probably hurts you). 5) To distract a Zombie...toss one of your friends in front of it and run! THE LOCATION: This cache is hidden in an historic theatre on California Avenue in Palo Alto. Originally named for a small community, Mayfield, which was later annexed to Palo Alto, this theater was originally a simple Spanish Mission style structure, but was given a plain Moderne facade and marquee in the Fifties. The last chain to operate it was Renaissance Rialto. Today the marquee is a well known fixture on southern California Avenue - bringing back memories of Saturday horror movie matinees. Closed in the late 1980s, the building is now reopened for the public. The marquee still reads Fine Arts in neon, and the original facade still exists in part behind the Fifties era fascia. It is sure to bring back memories of those who watched Zombies and other monsters in old movies of the past in this theater. Hours to access the cache are: Tue-Fri 11am-6pm; Sat 12pm-5pm; Sun 10am-2pm STORYLINE: Simply go inside and seek out the zombie supply box (an ammo box for the undead). It is in plain view. There is no purchase necessary and the owners have agreed to allow this cache to rest in peace in their location. But please be respectful of the location, employees and the patrons. Please look around and you will see the framework of the old theatre and how some old theatre chairs are still there. The old wood theatre floor is still intact and the stage is the rear stock room area. MOVIE RATING: Bring the mini-cachers as this cache is really full of fun goodies and is intended as a true family cache. We brought back to life about half of the goodies we have ever recovered from caches around the world....thus even the cache contents themselves have been given a second chance to walk the earth. Please leave something if you take something and be sure to sign the Log Book Of The Undead. SPECIAL EFFECTS: For the First-to-Find a California Zombie Hunter patch or Zombie Hunter bracelet or many other undead, horror things to choose from. This is wheelchair accessible. Sorry....we believe the guidelines were simply unreasonably applied and no true appeal process was even granted. The result was predetermined. We never started a thread on this nor posted any "call to boycott GS" or such. This was originally a response to someone asking about commercial caches and exceptions. We believe that as members of the geocaching community, we are obligated to critique what we see as unfair and to openly offer suggestions in ways to improve the hobby of geocaching for all. Some people believe that Groundspeak is beyond question, and any critique is blasphemy. We don't and we believe that by adopting a more reasonable and flexible interpretation of this family hobby and applying them in a more consistent manner, the end result will be more fun and creative caches.

Glad your suspecions were proven correct (in your mind). It is obvious GS can do no wrong in your eyes. I did everything you claim I should have done. I communicated with the reviewers, I eliminated all aspects of comemrcial tone and employee interaction, I used the proper channels and I supplied the reasons. GS is ignoring their own guidelines that state it is only a presumption that can be overcome. Of course, you seem to have no issue with them publishing a cache two days ago that is a hide-a-key on a restaurant's table (coords show it right at the restuarant and the cache description even states "Please be thoughtful to anyone who may be having a bite where you think it might be.". Or one 30 minutes away that require one to enter a restuarant and ask the hostess for access to the cache. Or the multis that take place in our two largest shopping malls; or another multi taht takes cachers to Starbucks and otehr coffee business around town. But, I'm the one that wants special treatment? No, since you appear not to have read or incapable of understanding what I wrote, I will repeat: what I was seeking is fair, consistent and reasonable treatment, not inflexable and unreasonable application of guidelines in what is only a hobby. I also said I was not upset with the reviewers, but with GS itself. Next time please read before you reply.

Funny - I did the same thing (not cut off my finger - but spend a lot of time creating a large and creative cache fulled with tons of treasures for families and kids). I was worried where to put it. I finally found a spot that was pretty well secluded (in a county park on a mountain) so that limited possibility of it accidentally being found. I then covered it with camo tarp which needed to be removed to open the cache, helping it stay hidden. One can be 2 feet away and not see it (I have tested it). Finally, it is the final stage of a 3 stage multi - this does decrease the number of visits (which I actually do not like as much - traditionals are just more popular) but it adds to the "reward" of the final find.

For the shoreline, we did a hide once that used a fake rock hide-a-key. The high line of the shore has a "wall" of rocks. We hid the fake rock in a crevice/small cave created by the larger rocks. It is high enough to avoid even storm high tides. We have had some pretty good reviews on that. A cache that may work for your home location could include a fake birds nest on a tree (we have a few with the cache being a plastic easter egg); a flower pot (alrady mentioned); a lawn decoration such as a gnonme holding a cache container or standing on one; the telephone pole may have holes in it - I once found a small bison tube cache in such a hole; or flat magnetic type caches.

Fact is with 1.2 million active caches it is also getting harder to create and place interesting and creative and educational locations that do not cross one of the guidelines. This is especially true in a city like Palo Alto. Look it up on the GC map - rabid cache territory. Even the Zombie one I proposed would have been 0.1 miles away on 2 different directions from 2 different caches and 0.2 from another. And I never once said we were more special than other cachers. In fact the opposite, I believe all cachers do desrve reasonableness and flexability in the guidelines - especially when the guidelines themselves purport to state that they are only "generally" applied, that they are but "presumptions" and "exceptions" can be requested. It wasn't even so much the reviewers that upset me - they did what they were told to do by GS. But GS said exceptions could be made and that it is merely a presumption - so we followed the procedure. And when I followed the procedure and explained why the presumption was wrong and why an exception could be made by their own guidelines the response was they can't because the cache goes against the presumption of the guidline (yes, I know that is why we appealed per the guidelines). While we don't have 300+ hides out there, we do have almost 100. So I know it can be done - but that doesn't mean that GS should make it harder to do or that they should alienate those that actually make up the GS community. Without people like us that actually hide all these caches, geocaching wouldn't exist. An organization, any organization, should not be so extremely fundalmentalist and deaf to its members to the point it alienates them. Maybe what happened to us doesn't alienate you. But it alienated us. The 8 foot one - this is what happeend: I found this hotel owned by a former SuperBowl coach (for whom we already have anotehr cache placed near his former high school). I wanted to put something small (it was only a blinkie, but it was all I had on me at the time) on the hotel's sign. Garmin showed it was way to close to anotehr cache. So I walked and walked around the hotel until I hit 0.1 miles away. That took me to the furthest corner, outside the driveway to the rear entrance of the parking garage. But OK, it was there. I marked the waypoint on the garmin. When I got home I went to log it. I checked and it showed I was 8 feet too close. Don't know why the Garmin said 0.1 at the time and GC said 8 feet less but it did. So I was very upfront and explained this in the cache listing when it was submitted. I could have lied and moved the inputted coords 8 feet away (would have been within a reasonable zone of a cache search radius) but I don't lie on our cache submissions. It was denied. I was irritated, but OK - it is disabled and being moved this weekend acrss the street. Loses the connection a bit I believe, but OK. Breast cancer....agenda? You don't think agendas are allowed? How many Girls Scout and Boy Scout caches have you found (GS even helped establish a geocaching merit badge....for which I am a counsler at our troop)? How many placed at sites of religious importance? Little league caches? How many at memorials for armed forces? I will admit that breast cancer research has an agenda....but let's not pretend many caches that are still being published everyday do not reflect an agenda of a charity, religion or organization. Hypocrisy is worse than bureaucracy. Combined they have the effct of alienating and inflaming. And again, this is a "hobby". It is not reckless driving being prohibited as likened by someone; it is not an Olympic sport (heck it isn't even a high school sport). It is not brain surgey. It is not even Scrabble. It is an activity, as stated on Geocaching's own website, that is a "game" intended to be "enjoyed" by people with a "sense of community" and they recommend "Bring friends and family with you; sharing the experience can be very rewarding." Not making reasonable concessions to members that are trying to publish caches promoting the above listed values and goals seems self-defeating to me. But this all started when the first cacher asked about getting a waiver from the commercial guidelines so I listed my experience. Most here seem OK with GS' unwavering decision, they good for them. I am not so I am not moving the cache. I am complying with GC's rules, I have archived it and it is up on alternate caching sites - which will probably be where all our future caches will go and I doubt I will renew my paid membership in the future. I will keep using GC as the whole reason I started caching was a way to get my kids away from tv and video games an spend time together with me in the outdoors. But pay a governing board that turns a deaf ear to members? No, can't see doing that.

They are "guidelines" with - not hard rules, and the guidelines themselves state only that it is a "presumption", meaning it can be overcome by facts and that exceptions are allowed. Plus, this is a game - flexability should be an element, I doubt you are so inflexable in real life as you make out to be in your post. Plus the inconsistent application is bothersome - you seem to have no issue with the other commercial caches they publish (and these are not grandfathered in, they are recent) which seem to violate your written in stone rule. Plus, I for one do see a mere 8 foot deviation after a gps unit read 0.1 foot; or losing a parent to a disease; or, creating a cache in an historic theater as "extenuating" circumstances...or at least facts that should be considered in deciding whether or not to be reasonable with members. What I state is my belief - that an organization that publishes suggested guidelines for a game that is intended to be a family fun activity and is supported by people who volunteer the time and money to promote that by building/hiding/maintaining caches should show flexability and reasonableness rather than alienate those who help support and create that very organization.

I published the Zombie cache on two other sites. Yes I know they have a combined readership that is 1% of geocaching, but I decided it was more important to create and publish a fun and educational cache that families can enjoy rather than just going out and sprinkle 12 more park bench blinkies so people can add to their overall cache count. I also hid another pretty unique one today and after receiving the news of the appeal result didn't even bother submitting it. Again, it is tough to be a paying member and going out of my way and wallet to create and hide creative caches that only benefit geocaching.com and its members when geocaching.com refuses to reciprocate with even a reasonable flexibility of their guidelines. This is not a lone example. I lost my mother to breast cancer and created a pink ribbon cache in her memory that neither asked for donations nor even linked to a breast cancer fundraising site (it was linked to info on the disease) - it was refused as being "commercial" - as related to a charity. So I rewrote everything just to get it publsihed. Then last week I tried to publish a cahe that was 8 feet too close to another cache (when planting it, I had my gps in hand and walked around until it showed I was 0.1 miles away, yet when I posted the coords it showed I was 8 feet too close. I could have lied and just added 8 feet but I did not) - that too was denied. This "family hobby" is having the fun run out of it. I have decided I will still offer our troop a geocaching merit badge - but don't look for it on geocaching.com There is no way I would allow a bunch of kids to go through the effort of creating a cache only to have it denied as linked to a cause (such as Boy Scouts....wait that is allowed....but not breast cancer research....consistent application of guidelines?)

There's more to this story than what you're telling, I'm sure. Really? What do you want to know? OK - I admit, I re-wrote the cache description about 5 or so times to eliminate as much commercial aspects as possible. The orginal description did say something like "Just go in and ask a friendly Zombie for the cache and they will point you to it." - but I deleted that when I learned employee interaction is also a "no no". Other than that, you got it. And that was before a second reviewer saw it and the appeal. BTW - the guidelines clearly state both that it is only a "general rule" and that it applies to those caches "presumed" to be commercial. Doesn't seem general - seems immovable - despite the fact that a presumption is just that - a presumption, and as such it can be overcome by facts (unless the "general" "guidelines" are applied with an unreasonable inflexability). Oh, and by the way....the retail store is a small hole in the wall that markets to ultramarathoners (people who race in 50 and 100 mile footraces). That is how I got to know about the location. I think the potential consumers pale by comparison to the caches located at the three closest malls. Here are the reviewer posts so there is nothing more to the story: February 11 by caccbag (456 found) I give up View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 11 by Sandy (5 found) This cache has been referred to Appeals. You will hear from Groundspeak shortly. View Log February 11 by caccbag (456 found) Thanks Krypton and Nomex: I have rewritten the cache description yet again. The cache will be in plain site so no employee interaction is necessary. But there is no way I can hide an ammo box or other standard size cache around this old theater where it would not be muggled within a day. Inside the theater is the only option and it fits the old horror theme of the cache. Per your suggestion I have appealed and hope it can be published. Otherwise I might as well stop making creative and fun caches and only plant blinkies, hide-a-keys and 35mm containers on street signs and benches. View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 11 by Nomex Hi caccbag, I am one of the other Volunteer Reviewers for Northern California, and I'm afraid that I'll have to agree with Krypton's review of your Listing. The following part of your Description is pretty much a show stopper: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simply go inside and ask one of the friendly zombies if you can have access to the zombie supply box ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the Guidelines: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business,... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That pretty much spells out the limits of what a Volunteer Reviewer can Publish. Beyond that, it's up to Groundspeak whether to allow such Listings on the site or not. Please contact Appeals as Krypton has outlined below. They will be in contact with either Krypton or myself, when the Listing is ready to Publish. Thanks for your patience, Nomex Northern California Volunteer Reviewer View Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Original Cache Location:N 37° 25.558 W 122° 08.665 View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) "Since you're not answering my question, I cannot publish your cache. At this point you should select an appeal option if you wish to pursue this cache placement. " What question? I"ll answer any question, but I don't see one. Yes, please see if other volunteers will review this and if they would allow this. It does seem unfair that this one can't be published - yesterday alone I found one on the door frame of a Cannery business in San Francisco, and another I had to enter an arcade to log a virtual; and today made a FTF by getting a cache placed on the underside of a restuarant's sidewalk table. There are caches in downtown San Francisco in the courtyard of businesses; in hotels; Levi Strauss square; in Bechtel Plaza; at the Ferry Building shops; a multi that takes one through shops on the street; a multi/puzzle that requires going to the Hillsdale mall; etc. And, the one I mentioned that is in a restaurant in Woodside. There must be thousands of caches that expressly state that the "business owner has granted us permission to place this cache here". I changed the listing a bit to take emphasis off the business and instead put it on the history of the theater in hope that helps. There never was, and still isn't, any mention of the business name or their products in the cache listing. Thank you View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by Krypton Hi caccbag Since you're not answering my question, I cannot publish your cache. At this point you should select an appeal option if you wish to pursue this cache placement. If you would like for me to bring your cache up for discussion among all the other volunteer cache reviewers in our private forum, leave a reviewer note here on your cache page asking me to do that. I will post your cache and allow two or three days for discussion and voting. If you would like to appeal the denial of your cache directly to Groundspeak, (visit link) Of course, you may also choose to hide the cache at another location or to simply archive your listing. Please post a reviewer note when you have addressed this and enable the listing so it will be visible to the reviewers for further review. Additionally, please note that in 30 days, if this review is not complete and I've not heard from you, I will be forced to archive it. Don't let your cache get archived for non-communication. Thanks for your cooperation! Krypton Northern California Groundspeak Volunteer Cache Reviewer Manage your cache listing (visit link) View Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Original Cache Location:N 37° 25.558 W 122° 08.665 View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Huh?! This is not a commercial cache - in fact I had to convince the owners to let me use their place. There are caches everywhere connected to businesses, under restaurant tables (I got a FTF on one of those this morning), in a company's courtyard, on the side of their buildings and inside businesses. I actually got this idea from : GCG874 where people go inside a restaurant and ask the hostess to access a cache. My listing expressly states that no purchase is necessary. The whole reason I used this place is due to the history of the old theater and the tie-in with the word "Zombie". I swear, it is getting harder and harder to place caches that are fun or have a theme - soon the only caches will be a blinkie on a street post. Please tell me what I need to do to seek an exemption since it says they will be granted from Groundspeak. Thank you View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by Krypton Hi caccbag Groundspeak provides a cache listing service and the expectation is that cache pages will be about the cache, with perhaps a bit of information about the history or features of the location. I have reviewed your geocache submission for listing on the website. I'm writing to ask you to relocate your cache out of the business, interaction with employees or caches inside of businesses ar4e considered commercial caches and are not permitted. Knowledge Books Guidelines 3.1.4.2 (visit link) Please post a reviewer note when you have addressed this and enable the listing so it will be visible to the reviewers for further review. Additionally, please note that in 30 days, if this review is not complete and I've not heard from you, I will be forced to archive it. Don't let your cache get archived for non-communication. Thanks for your cooperation! Krypton Northern California Groundspeak Volunteer Cache Reviewer Manage your cache listing (visit link) View Log

There's more to this story than what you're telling, I'm sure. Really? What do you want to know? OK - I admit, I re-wrote the cache description about 5 or so times to eliminate as much commercial aspects as possible. The orginal description did say something like "Just go in and ask a friendly Zombie for the cache and they will point you to it." - but I deleted that when I learned employee interaction is also a "no no". Other than that, you got it. Oh, and by the way....the retail store is a small hole in the wall that markets to ultramarathoners (people who race in 50 and 100 mile footraces). That is how I got to know about the location. I think the potential consumers pale by comparison to the caches located at the three closest malls. Here are the reviewer posts so there is nothing more to the story: February 11 by caccbag (456 found) I give up View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 11 by Sandy (5 found) This cache has been referred to Appeals. You will hear from Groundspeak shortly. View Log February 11 by caccbag (456 found) Thanks Krypton and Nomex: I have rewritten the cache description yet again. The cache will be in plain site so no employee interaction is necessary. But there is no way I can hide an ammo box or other standard size cache around this old theater where it would not be muggled within a day. Inside the theater is the only option and it fits the old horror theme of the cache. Per your suggestion I have appealed and hope it can be published. Otherwise I might as well stop making creative and fun caches and only plant blinkies, hide-a-keys and 35mm containers on street signs and benches. View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 11 by Nomex Hi caccbag, I am one of the other Volunteer Reviewers for Northern California, and I'm afraid that I'll have to agree with Krypton's review of your Listing. The following part of your Description is pretty much a show stopper: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Simply go inside and ask one of the friendly zombies if you can have access to the zombie supply box ... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From the Guidelines: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The geocache is presumed to be commercial if the finder is required to go inside a business,... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- That pretty much spells out the limits of what a Volunteer Reviewer can Publish. Beyond that, it's up to Groundspeak whether to allow such Listings on the site or not. Please contact Appeals as Krypton has outlined below. They will be in contact with either Krypton or myself, when the Listing is ready to Publish. Thanks for your patience, Nomex Northern California Volunteer Reviewer View Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Original Cache Location:N 37° 25.558 W 122° 08.665 View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) "Since you're not answering my question, I cannot publish your cache. At this point you should select an appeal option if you wish to pursue this cache placement. " What question? I"ll answer any question, but I don't see one. Yes, please see if other volunteers will review this and if they would allow this. It does seem unfair that this one can't be published - yesterday alone I found one on the door frame of a Cannery business in San Francisco, and another I had to enter an arcade to log a virtual; and today made a FTF by getting a cache placed on the underside of a restuarant's sidewalk table. There are caches in downtown San Francisco in the courtyard of businesses; in hotels; Levi Strauss square; in Bechtel Plaza; at the Ferry Building shops; a multi that takes one through shops on the street; a multi/puzzle that requires going to the Hillsdale mall; etc. And, the one I mentioned that is in a restaurant in Woodside. There must be thousands of caches that expressly state that the "business owner has granted us permission to place this cache here". I changed the listing a bit to take emphasis off the business and instead put it on the history of the theater in hope that helps. There never was, and still isn't, any mention of the business name or their products in the cache listing. Thank you View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by Krypton Hi caccbag Since you're not answering my question, I cannot publish your cache. At this point you should select an appeal option if you wish to pursue this cache placement. If you would like for me to bring your cache up for discussion among all the other volunteer cache reviewers in our private forum, leave a reviewer note here on your cache page asking me to do that. I will post your cache and allow two or three days for discussion and voting. If you would like to appeal the denial of your cache directly to Groundspeak, (visit link) Of course, you may also choose to hide the cache at another location or to simply archive your listing. Please post a reviewer note when you have addressed this and enable the listing so it will be visible to the reviewers for further review. Additionally, please note that in 30 days, if this review is not complete and I've not heard from you, I will be forced to archive it. Don't let your cache get archived for non-communication. Thanks for your cooperation! Krypton Northern California Groundspeak Volunteer Cache Reviewer Manage your cache listing (visit link) View Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Original Cache Location:N 37° 25.558 W 122° 08.665 View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by caccbag (456 found) Huh?! This is not a commercial cache - in fact I had to convince the owners to let me use their place. There are caches everywhere connected to businesses, under restaurant tables (I got a FTF on one of those this morning), in a company's courtyard, on the side of their buildings and inside businesses. I actually got this idea from : GCG874 where people go inside a restaurant and ask the hostess to access a cache. My listing expressly states that no purchase is necessary. The whole reason I used this place is due to the history of the old theater and the tie-in with the word "Zombie". I swear, it is getting harder and harder to place caches that are fun or have a theme - soon the only caches will be a blinkie on a street post. Please tell me what I need to do to seek an exemption since it says they will be granted from Groundspeak. Thank you View / Edit Logs / Images Upload an Image for this Log February 10 by Krypton Hi caccbag Groundspeak provides a cache listing service and the expectation is that cache pages will be about the cache, with perhaps a bit of information about the history or features of the location. I have reviewed your geocache submission for listing on the website. I'm writing to ask you to relocate your cache out of the business, interaction with employees or caches inside of businesses ar4e considered commercial caches and are not permitted. Knowledge Books Guidelines 3.1.4.2 (visit link) Please post a reviewer note when you have addressed this and enable the listing so it will be visible to the reviewers for further review. Additionally, please note that in 30 days, if this review is not complete and I've not heard from you, I will be forced to archive it. Don't let your cache get archived for non-communication. Thanks for your cooperation! Krypton Northern California Groundspeak Volunteer Cache Reviewer Manage your cache listing (visit link) View Log

Here is a funny exchange on one of our caches (look at the earliest logs): http://www.geocaching.com/seek/cache_details.aspx?guid=122bcb10-0c8c-493b-bed9-698bed51881c

As someone who recently had a wonderful (IMHO) cache denied because the historic building in which I was hiding a cache was converted to a retail establishment, I say don't even bother. My cache description had no mention of the store name, no purchase was necessary, no employee interaction necessary, and non-commercial (it was centered on a Zombie movie theme and was in an historic theater for which I had gone to great length to get the owners' consent). The guidelines clearly allow for exceptions - but it was blindly rejected. We tried to create something beyond the blinkie on a street sign and hide-a-key under a bench - something fun, educational (the cache was linked to historic theater site and gave a history of the theater and the old town section where it was located) and geared for the family (the cache was an ammo box filled with over 100 toys and trinkets). Still, even after an appeal, it was rejected......the day after I was FTF on a cache placed under a dining table at a restaurant!!!! Sometimes I don't know what I hate more - hypocrisy or beuracracy. Sour grapes? You bet! So much so I am about to just give up on our cache-a-day streak, resign as our geocache merit badge counsler and archive and post all our caches (past and future) to other caching sites. Remember - these are "guidelines" which in their own words allow for exceptions. We are not engaged in open heart surgery or even an Olympic sport. This was intended to be a fun hobby for the whole family. Why destroy it and alienate its members by being so inflexible to the point of insulting members who support it through time, money and effort (paid memberships, creating caches, buying materials and going through all the effort of maintenance and placement)?