Ratsneve

I agree and go along with that--thanks and noted. A lot of this is focussed on better mapping editing and overlays (I think) that can be done on the smaller screen NP-20 then the basic mapping Garmin gives us on the larger screen'd Colorado and Nuvi. What could turn me away from the Colorado would be if the PN-20, even though on a smaller screen, could present far better mapping detail and interest which I believe is what Delorme is well known for. But I may not really know where this is going to lead and if my thoughts can be better explained away then maybe there is no purpose in the exercise?

Okay, I do have Garmin's NW 24K to use and will be using it for Smith Rock in Oregon. I've heard of Above the Timer's or Timberline before. What is it and is it usable on what GPSr's? You know Washington better then I do. I'll let you pick the location you'd like to use and we'll see how I and anyone else can match it. Others can still use Smith Rock State Park or any other entry they'd like to pick now if coordinates are included. After all, this is more than anything for my benefit to see if smaller really can be more useful and more interesting to use and behold. If a city is picked I'll use City Navigator to match...if its topo and in Washington or Oregon I'll use Garmin's new 24K for the Northwest. Otherwise I'll just use the base map topo that came with the CO 400t. The more the merrier--I think.

Here is a thought. So far right now I'm more likely to be sitting in a bus or car seat following a trip route and even pointing out interesting features other passengers might be interested in then hiking or biking or geocaching BUT because I do all the others too I wanted something portable and waterproof and, I thought, with as large a screen as possible too. So this ruled out a large screen nuvi since there would be external power constraights and I could just as likely be in a jetboat going up the Rogue River or a passenger in a friends car off to see the wizard somewhere. At the time I never considered better imagery the PN-x0 might offer because of the smaller screen size. Does it help to use a magnifying glass reading street names and features on smaller screens? Now, I think if I could project photo overlays of various sections of terrain transparently on TOPO 24K or City Navigator I would be happy. Last I heard that wasn't possible with anything Garmin offers or I have now--the above plus MapSource for the Colorado. Because the Colorado has all of its other issues I haven't started to see what I can or can't do with mapping.

Smith Rock State Park is located in Central Oregon at N 44deg 22' 12.8" by W 121deg 08' 05.8" (approx location of parking turnaround and trailhead). The challege is to take your favorite GPS and with your map program export Smith Rock State Park to your GPS, capture the display with as much terrain detail your map(s) can show, and post the image(s) in this thread only. Please include your GPS make and model and all the map software and overlays you might have used. If this doesn't make sense then don't do it, and I don't expect anyone to actually go to Smith Rock State Park. I'm having trouble justifying the smaller lower resolution screen of the Delorme PN-20 compared to the larger higher resolution Colorado screen I am use too now. I thought seeing the same imagery on different sized screens might help. And I guess I'm assuming the image sizes posted will be actual GPS screen sizes too--don't know if that is possible so you need to include your actual picture screen size. Further discussion could ensue here without showing any images. I might expect photo imagery showing trails from someone with a PN-20 but perhaps a higher topo image showing no trails or features from a Colorado.

Seriously, since I've considered the PN-40 myself and would be coming from a Colorado, how do you prefer the quality of an image displayed on a smaller lower resolution screen? I don't understand how this is possible but I have read it before. I do understand how Delorme may have better map imagery that in itself looks nicer but on a larger higher resolution screen would look even nicer--no? I suspect those rooted to Delorme who prefer better map imagery that they are use too can justify its display on a smaller lower resolution screen then those who might be making the choice for the first time? Some people here, including myself at times, would look for and consider _anything_ that might offer escape from Garmin's current careless attitude.

On the Oregon: 1. How do you delete recent finds? 2. How do you reset the barometric pressure chart? 4. How do you reset the main odometer--not the trip odometer? 5. What does auto-locate position mean? I noted that you cannot manually locate a position like you can on the CO by scanning off the map if need be--I guess? Not sure I understand this--that's why I ask. 6. Same with how to Search for a location on map? 7. While tracking an active route there are no turn-direction indicators? Is this different from auto-routing? I think you must be auto-routing to a waypoint before even the CO gives you turn-direction indicators. I'm trying to determine if and when I should jump from the Colorado to the Oregon. The above doesn't concern the more serious issues. Thanks.

It is interesting for me to note and give pause that even with the features in my Colorado that don't work at all or don't work correctly or are lacking that I have come to think would be nice to have and work properly, the Colorado still _seems_ to be the best GPS for _my general use_ on the market today for casual geocaching and street routing--with the exception of the Oregon possibly. This does not mean I'm not going to continue to take an active interest resolving Colorado problems, although I might exchange it for an Oregon given the chance and purpose which is yet to be seen. The R-n-R certainly does not excite me any, I don't go out in the dead of winter geocaching, but I might take an interest in barometic pressure trending with the GPSr turned off. It would be nice to confidently submerge one or the other in water too and lots of fun if the Temperature displays for Air and Water really worked and were meaningful. My biggest interest right now has shifted to receiver sensitivity, stability, accuracy, and drift issues between the Colorado and Oregon. Both units have different sensitive receiver/chipsets and both have different antennas. Which one offers the best accuracy and performance and stability in mountainous forested terrain? Does one have an advantage over the other? How about theoretically once problems both have now are ironed out? How important would adding Waypoint Averaging as an option be to resolving the Drift problem? Is my Colorado experiencing this Drift problem if the position marker drifts around a 20 foot radius--that would be a 40 foot diameter area? Or is that actually a good acceptible error with no waypoint averaging? I experienced Wandering while moving several times. The position marker would wander off of a road course I was on and stay off course. This problem was fixed and has not reoccurred by risking a Garmin unit exchange. I mention Drift here even though I have not fully reviewed the threads yet. If it were possible (no interference between units) to search for a cache or track a route with a Colorado in my left hand and an Oregon in my right (and even switching back and forth) and in both open unobstructed terrain and another time in mountainous forested cloudy conditions would I _see_ any difference in behavior between the two units? (Please focus on reciever antenna sensitivity & stability issues--not the gross differences between how you operate the units.) I just reviewed a feature comparison between the CO and OR on the Oregon wiki and think I might be better off sticking with the Colorado. Here are some Oregon issues I didn't like seeing: 1. Can't reset the odometer 2. No turn direction indicators on an active route. 3. No way to search for a location on map. 4. No manual auto-locate position. 5. Can't delete recent finds. (6. Can't delete/reset barometric pressure data. Same on CO too.) 7. Others but no more homework today. Thanks.

I find it interesting that Garmin's own Motion Based forum at http://forums.motionbased.com/smf/index.php mentions nothing about the nuvi, Colorado or Oregon lines. The fact that many replacements to date have not fixed this trending barometric data while the Colorado is turned off leaves me feeling that maybe, if and when there is a real solution, it might be locked up in a software update--that there may not be any physical repair needed. There was one post somewhere sometime ago here where someone mentioned that while attempting to pressure trend with their unit off the batteries went dead and that this left the software in a corrupt state where even after battery replacement the unit would not turn back on properly and the software could not be renewed. Is it possible that Garmin in later software updates turned off this trending function capability in order to prevent the dead battery problem occurring when the unit is off? If this trending when off works on the Oregon it is interesting that Garmin hasn't applied that portion of softeare to the Colorado to fix it. I'd love to see someone with an Oregon start trending pressure data with almost spent batteries and let it run long enough for them to go totally flat. Maybe you can tell when this would be by not seeing the regular screen flash when the unit comes on momentarily to take the data reading? ...Then wait another eight hours and try to turn the unit on to see what happens? I want to SEE Garmin fix my Colorado. And this includes not only this pressure trending issue when off but also this receiver sensitivity/drift issue and some dumb features like a bogus air and water temperature, not retaining your backlight setting along with it not being nearly as bright with 2.4 V as it is with 5 V, and many other little things. It is obvious to me that Garmin lost knowledge and/or will on how to properly beta test the Colorado and Oregon lines before releasing them for sale. Nobody with the reputation Garmin had could be so stupid--yet somebody was. I now have to go find the thread on this Drift issue. I think this is the one discussing Waypoint Averaging (WA) or rather the lack of it on the Colorado and Oregon? I thought I solved my initial drift or wandering while driving when my unit was replaced several weeks ago now but apparently not? If push comes to shove I would join a class acitoin suit. I never have had to do this. I would much much rather become a field beta tester of the Colorado 400t for Garmin with some compensation not to exceed what I've already paid. I would much much rather do this because it would put me deeper in touch with what Garmin was doing. I would feel something more then the "nothing" I feel they are doing now. I may have to mend some fences though since there is probably one person in Garmin I sent email to the other day who could be feeling upset with me. I haven't hear back from him or the tech support I talked to a few days ago on the barometric trending issue--which he knew nothing about. At least he didn't just set up a useless unit exchange. Garmin seriously needs some PR on geocaching.com.

Yippee! They are going to fix the problem with the next software update. Yippiee! [i hope you feel my scarcasm and skepticism a little. ]

Great questions right above this one... I wonder how well other GPSr geocache and street routing users have adjusted going from larger to smaller lower resolution screens like Delorme's PN-x0 series compared to there larger higher resolution screens like Garmin's nuvies, Colorado, and Oregon lines that they gave up for various reasons? Despite having a more feature functional, accurate, stable GPSr and better maps and mapping software does the smaller screen cause regrets that are hard to overcome when you have used a larger screen GPSr or is it a piece-of-cake once you get comfortable using the smaller screen? I just sold an old Magellan eXplorist 200. I wonder now if its screen size and resolution is the same as the PN-x0? What are the technical reasons why Delorme didn't go with a larger screen design? I'm assuming at this point that an increased retail cost was but a very minor player in the design decision? I'm hoping that absorbing good answers to all the above will help me accept and appreciate using a physically smaller screen that has lower resolution like the PN-40 over my current Colorado 400t? Is there going to be a PN-60 in another 14 months with a Colorado sized screen? If I can't put screen size to rest it is going to remain a stumbling block for me. Looking at map pictures is not the whole answer.

I haven't done MapSource any justice (as limited as its editable features may be) so I cannot make any comparison but...that said anyway... are you saying that with Street Atlas USA and/or Topo 7(?) I could edit in new streets and/or trails that didn't exist on the map and then export these additions to the PN-40 and in fact be able to auto-route on these new streets and trails? I thought Chip said that the PN-40 autorouted streets only--no trails yet?

Thanks Chip. I am totally impressed by Delorme over Garmin. I don't want to go much beyond where I am now until I know for certain that I want to abandon the Colorado / Oregon. Some reason why I may stick with the Colorado are: If Garmin can in fact fix the dynamic barometic tracking when the unit is turned off and other outstanding problems such as this accuracy and drift issue. I have found several caches with the Colorado in spite of whether its accuracy and/or drift problems got in the way or not. The unit has straightened its errors out well enough to find the caches. Would a more stable accurate GPSr really matter? I like the larger screen and higher resolution. Using the screens in full sun has not been the problem. The problem is when in shade when the backlighting must be at its highest. The CO backlighting is much brighter if one used an external 5 V supply rather then the 2.4 V internal batteries. I can see myself going either way depending on what Garmin does in the near future. Since the PN-20 has the same screen size as the 40 I should go take a good up close look at it somewhere.

Clearly not. The Nuvi screen is both larger and has more pixels, yet it costs 40% of the CO/OR. This screen comparison should provide ample evidence: Of course cost is of no significance. It is very puzzling isn't it why Garmin kicks out high priced CO and OR units that are full of bugs while offering other models that maybe only lack being waterproof and having an accessible battery compartment for much less with larger screens. Maybe there is a study going on to see how many "smart people" (myself included) still go out and buy something that looks good on impulse regardless of price or functionality? Before I decide on how much I can afford to pay for this GPS & company you have to find it first. Phooey!

Here are a bunch of screen shots. Well, those are the screen shots I was referring too. No doubt it is partly the resolution difference. This is going to be a problem for me--I can feel it. It wouldn't be as important to me now if I wasn't already using and use to the CO screens look and feel. Also, none of those shots show a scale. Is there an option to add a scale bar that varies as you zoom in and out? Can one manually WA with the Colorado by every few minutes marking a waypoint and then just keep the one central to all the others? What is the difference except that WA might be tracking these points invisibly and moving the average point around automatically?

Make sure you get the 1.4 firmware update; we just improved this feature so that you can return to a location you have averaged and gather new data on a different day. You will see the number of readings continue to increase and the accuracy estimate update. This is valuable since the GPS constellations change with time and your best averages are gathered over multiple visits. For those using our XMap GIS software you will also find averaging tools within the GPS tab in the software. Let me know if you have any questions... Chip Noble Team DeLorme If you average and can drive right up to your fishing hole / cache one day why do you have to keep averaging the location any more? Over time you mention that the "GPS constellations change". What is this and why does it matter if you already have a locations coordinates?

I'm interested in this waypoint averaging (WA) to improving accuracy and stability? So far I've read everything from minor improvement to huge improvement? I'm also concerned about the smaller screen and resolution of the PN-20 and PN-40 to the Colorado 400t screen I have now. I saw some topo map screen shots of one of the PN's (don't remember which) and at first initial glance at them was not impressed. The lines appeared broken up into segments and I didn't see as much "color" to the terrain or poi icons. Will the PN-40 do shading? Is there any 3D function? Of course, if the accuracy in finding a cache is clearly superior to the Colorado or Oregon then one might live with the PN-40 not looking as "pretty". I suspect the higher price of the Colorado and Oregon is its larger screen and better resolution. Of course this no doubt is what has made backlighting and battery capacity such issues too. For me at least so far I am more often then not turning backlighting up as far as it can go on the CO. Turn it on full bright or turn it off when not needed. On the other side of the geocaching coin I am very interested in autorouting street navigation and finding all manner of things in a strange city. I have not been to impressed with Garmin's City Navigator accuracy and the CO and OR units don't have the traffic recievers built in. Are there _any_ hand-held portable GPSrs that offer traffic updates? Specifically will the PN-40 offer this? For Garmin you have to get into their incredibly complex nuvi series. As far as maps go does Delorme offer a City Navigator equivalent? With a smaller screen and poorer resolution is detail lost for easily locating a gas station or restaurant? Are the maps updated more often and can ceratin areas be manually edited/corrected? If I end up making a break from Garmin I will be visiting Delorme much more closely. In the mean time do you know if street routing on the PN-40 will have any audible element to it? Will it be able to clearly announce, "Turn right on 15th street in 100 feet" or will it beep or will it use an almost inaudible jingle with no volume control like the Colorado and Oregon offer? My kind of dream GPS and dream GPS company: Portable, rugged, and waterproof to a couple foot depth. Paperless geocaching. 3-axis compass. Some means of accurately updating certain map areas as needed. Autorouting on road or on trail. Traffic control receiver. Spoken routing for turns and road conditions with adequate volume and volume control. Maximum backlighting brightness to be a constant whether using 2.4 V batteries or 5 V external source. Fully tested (bug free) and working software features to support all of the above. In house trained technical support that knows exactly what problems the product has and knows exactly what hardware and software engineering is doing to fix any problems. Accurate and complete reference manuals for the unit and for the map software. Plus tutorials on unit functions. Screen comes with Invisible Shield already installsed. Optionals: External battery packs, different kinds of lanyard attachments, and different power cables. [When pigs fly. ]

Instead of a replacement has anyone asked for and gotten their units repaired and returned for any problem they might have had? It sounds like that isn't an option and why probably figures into the problem Garmin has with QC. If Garmin is unable to fix the problem then I think they are in a bind if they refuse a full refund. In light of all the problems and the current overall status of both the Colorado and Oregon lines I'm not sure I would accept exchanging for an Oregon. Why jump from one frying pan that's on fire into another one that's going to scald you if you don't have too--if you can bail out clean without any GPS and start the whole search over?

Has anyone experiencing this function not working (setting up the unit to record barometric pressure when the unit is then turned Off and discovering no dynamic pressure records were made after turning the unit back On--just a straight line between the active points when On) gotten their unit successfully repaired or replaced with another unit that worked? Has anyone successfully returned their units for a full refund? Have you reached any conclusions on what you did wrong buying the Colorado and what GPS you will try next?

I know it looks like I got carried away with all the questions but there is method to my madness--whether anyone appreciates it or not. I've noticed the Delorme presence here and a number of Colorado owners, including myself are wondering if its time to make a change. We are upset and frustrated with so many Garmin/Colorado/Oregon factors. Every one of my questions above represents discussions around problems, things that didn't work right or didn't work at all and some still don't to this day, and really poor technical support training imo. There is one person who has replaced his Colorado through Garmin six times and on the last attempt he still doesn't have barometric pressure recording when the unit is turned Off. I just want Delorme to know. If I were CEO of Garmin I would pull Colorado and Oregon GPSrs and offer every Colorado and Oregon owner a full refund; but also ask each of them to continue field beta testing these models for free. And there would be some major design option changes made before the units went back on the market. On the other hand if you really think I think that's going to happen then expect to see pigs flying any day. More likely, just like so much computer software, their bean counters forced the products premature release because Garmin is failing. There must be a number of good software and hardware engineers at Garmin that hate their jobs right now.

Maps, maps, maps. You have the best mapping with DeLorme. What I have on my PN-20 is fantastic. Some of the color aerial imagery is very nice to look at not to mention the Topo maps. I could just imagine using the PN-40 to see the same maps but at at a faster speed. I am not indicating that Garmin has bad maps, just that DeLorme is soo much better. But it can't be just maps alone as important as they are. You have receiver/antenna sensitivity, accuracy, and a whole slew of mapping features, plus paperless geocaching and geocaching features. Does the PN-40 use a 2 or 3-axis electronic compass? Is the compass stable regardless of voltage input or do you have to recalibrate it often or at least when you change batteries? What about the position indicator? Does it wander off 100 or more feet at times and continue that error until turned off or reset? Is the color screen equal to the size and resolution of the Colorado? Are various map screens easier to see in different lighting conditions with 2.4 V battery then the CO? Does the backlighting make a huge difference when boosted to 5 V with an adapter like it does for the CO? What about battery life? Does it have one or two MicroSD slots? And how much free memory to add maps from DVD PC sources? Does it adverstise features that have never worked. Where is Delorme's tech support--in the U.S. or offshore? Does it take a half hour wait before you speak to anyone? Is map activation straight forward or another different nightmare? Does the PN-40 show accurate outside air temp? Does it have a barometer and by any chance can it record barometic pressure changes when the unit is turned off? Is it a touch screen or not and how do you do text entries--with an alphanumeric wheel or a joystick you move across a keyboard-like screen? I assume it is waterproof--really? Can you pretty much hold and operate it with one hand?

Didn't I post somewhere that this process of upgrading, registering, and activation was an absolute nightmare requiring phone calls to Garmin with their 30 minute initial wait times plus another minimum 30 minute wait to get to the software side of things? I may have described it as fubar even. I'm pretty sure you won't see the 2009 update to download until after your base 2008 City Nav is registered and activated--that took one phone call. The site considers when you bought/registered/activated the original 2008 base to determine if you get a free download of the 2009 update. At that time you can elect to have them mail you the 2009 update DVD for postage. Once you have the update, either way you choose, you install it, register it, activate it and this took the second (or were there three) phone calls. Then believe it or not the original 2008 version is useless. You don't need it because the 2009 version is complete in itself. I deleted my version off my PC and MapSource. If it is stand-alone why can't you just buy the 2009 version? I strongly suggest you give up a whole weekday morning to this task and wish you good luck.

What are the big things (duds) about the Colorado and/or Oregon that drives considering the Delorme PN-40? What are the significant things that the PN-40 is doing right that the Colorado fails at? Does Delorme field beta test their GPSr hardware and software extensively--something that Garmin apparently doesn't do at all?

Is once good enough? Now you really must check it again...please.

You've got a lot of nerve calculationg out that postage. Fortunately I'm happy with what I've got now and use. I've been through one exchange and the replacement did fix the wild compass and wandering location marker. AND, since they sent me a new unit they emailed to me a postage paid UPS label to use for the return. I _expect_ the same for the second replacement attempt to fix the dynamic barometric pressure problem when turned Off. However, in light of your experience I'm going to get this problem resolved in email with them first. Maybe they would prefer I ship them my unit for repair and I get that specific unit back repaired? I'm not going to go through what you have gone through. I'll get a full refund out of them first including maps bought. Does the Oregon do pressure trending while Off? If it does does it work? If it doesn't I don't really care but maybe they'd swap me an Oregon 400t? I don't think I'd be happy sitting here with no GPS. I've run out of steam myself right now. I owe Garmin a lengthy email but feel so depressed reading all this struff I haven't gotten it done. Does Delorme actually make the PN-40? I guess it doesn't matter if they get its problems fixed and it does all the basic GPS stuff as well as Garmin or Magellan. What kills me is I had an opportunity to use these forums fully BEFORE I bought anything but instead I let myself get sucked into the Colorado at a retail store no less. I backed out of that successfully to save a huge chuck of money but turned around and bought another 400t--only then to really start discovering the problems. I'll never learn!

On the Colorado...have you noticed that the top corner screen radii are smaller then the bottom corner radii? Does the Oregon line have this same corner radii difference? I didn't discover this until days later when I realized I had placed the invisible SHIELD top to bottom backwards on my Colorado. I did such a good job with the installation though that I'm not doing it over because it is of no consequence.