Ratsneve

Interesting... I hope Garmin will start seeing results soon from the numerous problems they have sown. Even the Oregon with its touchscreen, paperless geocaching (60CSx doesn't have), and better accuracy (then CO) can't stop everyone from won't stop some from falling back to a previous and proven GPSr.

Thanks for the DEM on/off, helps me to understand Garmin's choices. Some observations: - The shading is very well done and not blocky like on Topo 2008. - At this level of zoom, the shading adds no information, at a 1-mile scale I suspect I would like it more. - My Nuvi stops shading at 20 mi by contrast. - The base green color is too dark, which results in very dark hues for shading. - Surprised that the trail is so thin, almost invisible against the base green. What happens on private land? - Too many contour labels and do we need Ft, seems to me a user sets Ft or M and never wonders after that. I agree with everything above though if one was inclinded to use ft and m on different occassions it might be nice to somewhere indicate 'Contours in Ft' or 'Contours in m'? I just noticed something else relating to the clutter though. Notice that even though both these shots were made at a 300 ft zoom the exact map position is different and what contours indicate what footage labels changes too. This is dynamic and a mess. To bad the contour footage can't stick to just the darker contour intervals and when zoom'd further out this frequency would decrease more? No doubt this is tough to program one way or the other.

Thanks for the DEM on/off, helps me to understand Garmin's choices. Some observations: - The shading is very well done and not blocky like on Topo 2008. - At this level of zoom, the shading adds no information, at a 1-mile scale I suspect I would like it more. - My Nuvi stops shading at 20 mi by contrast. - The base green color is too dark, which results in very dark hues for shading. - Surprised that the trail is so thin, almost invisible against the base green. What happens on private land? - Too many contour labels and do we need Ft, seems to me a user sets Ft or M and never wonders after that. Must wait patiently for the Oregon to arrive. So many things to try... Thanks for the input. Although I was feeling sort of finished with this thread recent posts have really renewed my interest. Since we must always bear in mind and remember here that what we look at here are screen shots and not actual views of the respective GPSr screens and since we are largely (though it doesn't have to be so) comparing the CO and OR screen details to the PN-20/40 screen details, I would like to ask yet another question of a subject that I keep dwelling on and does relate... ***DeLorme (Chris) welcomed to comment (anywhere)*** I've noticed early on that the CO (maybe OR?) full brightness backlighting can vary significantly from Ni-M-H 2.4 V DC to the 5 V DC external sources. Because of this in certain lighting with the CO you will wish you could use 5 V DC all the time, especially with dark shaded areas showing on the map screen. I haven't tried an external 5 V DC power pack on the CO (won't now) or OR yet. BUT, regarding the PN-40 now... I understand several things I think. If one uses Ni-M-H vs Li the V will change from 2.4 V to ~3 V (3.1 V?). Between these battery voltages can you see any screen brightness difference in the PN-40? Secondly on the PN-40... a) You can only use an external power cable to recharge the Li cells installed in the PN-40? You can not charge Ni-M-H cells installed in the PN-40 with the exteranl power cable? c) You cannot use an external power cable to run the PN-40 period--power comes only from the internal batteries? d) When you are charging Li cells installed the screen is no longer full bright? Is there any issue on the usability/visability of the PN-40 screen while this recharge process is going on--if you were viewing a map with shading or a terrain photo might you wish to wait until the charge was finished? e) Is it likely that backpackers will take sets of charged Ni-M-H or Li batteries? Enough... ...Something to work on while I wait for the OR to arrive. Thank you.

Not exactly but probably a worse oversight on my part. I knew your shots were from Above the Timber's but I, uh, didn't know you could load other maps into the CO/OR--I thought it had to be Garmin only. Although I've read other threads more recently that were trying to hint to me otherwise nothing had clicked yet. Regarding my costs so far. Since my CO/OR is the 400t with a base topo map I should focus more on its basic usefullness? I might discover Above the Timber's or something else even would serve me better then Garmin's Topo U.S. 24K Northwest MicroSD? Because that is limited to the MicroSD card it would be easy to sell. There is a lot of map homework I feel like I should have done but didn't--instead I just bought City Navigator and the Northwest 24K Topo. I learned recently that this topo series contains City Navigator data. What a surprise! I don't expect other maps to cost much less. Snow Lake, Smith Rock, Silver Falls (added just one shot of before the CO broke when I was also trying to find some serious mountain pass trails out of Mineral King in Sequoia National Park I've been on when I was MUCH younger), and some Mineral King trails should round out good examples for me eventually. ***Attention PN-40 Lurker*** I suspect I was using the CO incorrectly while searching for Mineral King and that that caused or contributed to the corrupt software 'system software missing'? The OR may not be able to do what I did with the CO... Which was to leave the location mark in Central Oregon but scan off with the cursor pointer south to Visalia in California and then east and around parts of Kings Canyon. I got lost trying to navigate to Sequoia though when I backed out west to the Valley again. All this time the GPS was redrawing maps time and time again with zooming in and out too. And it was also tracking that I might at any time want to create a waypoint and auto-route to that area. This is when the unit suddenly just shut itself off. And upon several restart attempts I would only get 'system software missing'. Garmin apparently offers no means to renew corrupt GPSr software--this forced me to return the unit to them. There was a way I might have tried but since there was no guarantee it would have worked in this case and it was 3rd party I did not attempt it. What I'd like to know about DeLorme's upcoming PN-40 is whether, if there is software corruption of any sort, there is a means to restore that software (much like reinstalling the OS of a computer). I realize that this may never have happened on the PN-20/40 line yet but I'm going to be gun-shy for some time now that this sort of thing _can_ happen. ***End of DeLorme Request*** Geez, I can write long... Okay sooo... I really tried to search for Mineral King under several categories in the CO but could not find anything. I used the base topo map but not City Navigator. Once I Googled and found where Mineral King was I had already gotten as close as Fresno. The question is, what might have been the more proper way to explore an area way way far off from where the GPSr location marker is? I can only suspect now at this point that I should have turned the satellite mode off and set the location marker to Visalia or as close as I could search and find to Mineral King and gone to that new location and searched from there? Thank you.

When do features and abilities we'd like to see become the realm of more expensive GPSr's--real tough marketing choices? I was puzzled early on with the Colorado's backlight issue and why Garmin doesn't offer a 5 V external battery pack that could be kept in a warm location? The backlight intensity between 2.4 V and 5 V DC is significant. Does the PN-20/40 have this backlight intensity issue? Would an external battery pack run the PN-20 without internal batteries or does external power only serve to charge batteries installed? Sorry, I don't know how to tie this into the op topic.

You did what...some open source software for your Colorado/Oregon? Can you explain more and should this topic me moved to its own thread? Thanks.

I looked through all the pictures again and realized I would have liked to revist the locations with the Colorado to set different levels of detail, note how the contour intervals change relative to zoom level, try different label sizes, and actually hike some of Smith Rock to add my own section of trail to the map, even if I have to accept a default color. I'll continue this when I get the Oregon. As I mentioned, I was a little disappointed in the trail detail Topo7 offers for Snow Lake and none at Smith Rock. Would a PN-20 user who has access to the USGS 7.5 minute series maps that DeLorme offers like to see if this trail detail is any different at Snow Lake and present at all at Smith Rock? Thanks.

This thread has been very informative for me. I think it has run its course here and now. I remain impressed with the PN-20 and especially the DeLorme company and its support; and disappointed in the Colorado (especially now after the recent 'System Software Missing'--Garmin's 'blue-screen-of-death' equivalent) and the Garmin company. Since I have already made my $600 plus investment in the Colorado, which will turn into an Oregon in a week or so, and its City Navigator 2008 DVD plus 2009 Update and Topo U.S. 24K Northwest MicroSD maps I don't feel in any rush to buy a PN-40 asap. I am a casual user who has enjoyed the new features and functions that have worked on the Colorado geocaching and auto-routing to various waypoints. If I move to the PN-40 the only thing I will miss is the Oregon's larger screen size. Given the choice I doubt I would ever buy another Garmin product because of their poor technical support, engineering, software, and management oversight. If Garmin would like to contact me for further details I have registered their products--they can learn how to use that contact information--I won't be writing any of them directly. Thank you for the mapping examples and insght we have shared together here.

Yes, the "system software missing" error at startup that I got magically on my 400t killed that unit. I'm exchanging it for an Oregon and now it looks like there are to many ways to somehow corrupt these GPSr's. If a solution develops from this I think I want to know what it is.

Everyone turning the Colorado down in favor of the 60CSx might want to consider the Oregon a little. It may not be quite as accurate but has paperless geocaching and ... uh, never mind. You better stick with a 60CSx. On the other hand, unless you also must have the larger screen you might want to look at the DeLorme PN-20 and/or the newer PN-40 coming out mid October too?

Can I change the English around? I would like to change "System Software Missing" to "SNAFU Catch #22".

GO$Rs... Do you or did you use ZAGG's shields on your CO or OR? If you don't use any shields I would be interested in your reasoning? Thanks. (One very good reason why you haven't installed any shield would be if the units are only on loan while you thoroughly test them?) The ZAGG invisibleSHIELD I bought and successfully installed on the CO 400t _was_ about 1 mm to long leaving me thinking now that I might have to trim off 2 mm to work on the OR? Or would that be 1 mm from the top and 1 mm along the length? Okay, I just got off the phone with ZAGG and have ordered, under their lifetime warranty, a replacement SHIELD for the CO. If I do cut the new SHIELD down to size to fit the OR when it arrives this process will void further warranty. For the same original cost you can get custom screen sizes made--not bad for $11.95 with $0 shipping. The CO size wasn't perfect but was of no concern. If that looks true with the CO screen on the OR unit I likely will not bother trimming off 1 mm and thus preserve the warranty. Fingerprints on the exposed surface can be removed of course by wiping but finger prints on the sticky bottom surface cannot be removed. ZAGG does not recommend reusing the shields largely because of finger prints. Using excessive spray will help lining up the shield during installation. Lack of this made my first installation difficult but still successful. ZAGG sells shields to a lot of cell phone types and other touchscreen equipment and they are not tracking any difficulties with touchscreen surfaces for installation _or_ later removal. The only caution was to keep spray off the electronics (keypad & button switch internals).

Would you clarify the above paragraph please? What GPS do you have? To my knowledge the new Topo 24K MicroSD series does not include City Navigator--CONFUSED. Further, with my Colorado 400t I learned early on that I could not use City Navigator 2009 and the Topo 24K for the Northwest at the same time and get topo information. City Navigator will mask the Topo 24K where you will lose contour and icon information. I've been advised by Garmin to only select and use one at a time. That said however, it doen't seem like I lose much city street information if I have only selected the MicroSD Northwest Topo 24K map. Even if it turns out true having City Navigator on DVD means I can plan trips with it on the PC first. It will be interesting to hear how well the vertical speed indicator works and helps gliding.

This might be a good thread to draw in comments on--once you know your touchscreen is working okay--adding an invisibleSHIELD on top of the touchscreen to further protect it? This was touched on elsewhere earlier on but it is now later on in the game. Are these shields working okay on the OR? Is there any sensitivity loss noted? Maybe there is enough size difference that the OR SHIELD is not out yet? Can they be removed from the OR touchscreen if need be or is there greater danger in damaging the screen? Thank you... I'll certainly look at my OR screen closely, er, along with everything else including getting it good and wet--something I was afraid to even test on purpose with the CO even though they both are to the waterproof spec.

It is state park area we see in green. If I zoomed out you would see lots more of desert-brown color/shading. When I get my Oregon I can post a few more varieties of topo and city street terrain. I'd like to see some more Topo7 pictures too. By any chance can anyone access Topo7 on Delorme's site to look through it? It would not be possible to download or load or capture of course? Yes...agree. Elevations every fifth (darker) line would be adeqate. Some of the T7 shots don't show contour elevations and other shots do? I'll accept Delorme averaging the switchbacks out of a trail is liveable but when they aren't accurate up on a ridge line instead of down on the saddle I think that is stretching it a little.

Holy smoke--that's a new one on the touchscreen sort of delaminating and getting an air bubble trapped underneath it. What about getting an InvisibleSHIELD for the OR--recommended or not by anyone? What about removing that shield should you need to replace it or return the unit to Garmin? Can you still do that?

Yes, you can change track colors on the Oregon. You can do it in MapSource too, but the colors revert to the default when you transfer it to a GPSr. A big fat smile for telling me that. Oh, well. There is always the hope that a Garmin executive will read this and ask some MapSource employees some questions.

I suspect that when the time is right all Colorado users should actually get the offer. Understand that this was not offered to me. I made it happen by suggesting it as a reasonable solution to me otherwise bailing from Garmin and selling the unit for whatever I could get on ebay. But I think what really clinched it for me was the "Systems Software Missing" that occurred out of the blue and maybe an overriding supervisor not being available at the right time, i.e., maybe the person at Garmin that made this deal for me got in some warm water? Try to create and justify the offer. Maybe as a result of the letter writing campaign too this will end up the perfect solution for Garmin to save a lot of face and keep everyone happy?

Garmin isn't going to read these forums. They are afraid of them and it takes a lot of someones time. They know that there are always unhappy product users and that _some_ problems get exagerated or distorted and they just are not going to use forums--even geocaching.com. Heck, Garmin has their own forum at MotionBased where the nuvi, CO, and OR aren't even mentioned/discussed and there is virtually zero traffic of any sort and they do nothing with it--I wonder why? They need to shock-and-awe'd.

Yes, well I live in Oregon and I think there is a lot of ruggedness here in the volcanic Cascades too. I think naming GPSr's after any state wasn't the best idea but the names are easy to stick with. Right now it looks like the Oregon may have a better future then the Colorado but Garmin really has let their management slip. I just got off the phone with a technical support rep supervisor at Garmin _finally_ called me back about my frustrations with the Colorado. I tried to give Garmin through him as diplomatic a thrashing over these units as I could. Althoug he was polite about it all it was very clear from his tone that he thinks we, on geocaching.com, don't know what we are talking about and that Garmin knows best in every way. He wasn't interested at all in suggesting to his management that Garmin should take any action or interest or presence in any forums. Fortunately for me I earlier today got my prepaid UPS shipping label to return the defective CO. Since you got me started into Garmin I also think they have made a mistake dividing up there business the way they have. If you are looking for a portable GPS for street navigation there aren't any. If you are looking for a geocaching portable you won't find any in the nuvi line. If you've got a street navigation issue on the Oregon will Garmin care since the OR is a portable outdoors GPSr? If you've got a nuvi and are having some trouble doing paperless geocaching with it will Garmin ever fix the problem or just come out with another new nuvi? I think the company needs to downsize and reorganize and start somehow treating us as "partners" rather then "foes". Maybe technology industries can't be nice and survive for long? Microsoft is the same way--untouchable with a "we can do no wrong" attitude. Last month I got a $35 refund check from some Microsoft concern in Idaho I think it was. I wasn't do any refund and there was no detail included with the check as to what the refund was for and absolutely no contact information. I tried to find out but could find no one interested even with a case opened up on it. I finally just cashed the check. These are "poor" companies that have no _easy_ means for customers to resolve problems.

Fascinating. I was wondering what that POI Loader shortcut was good for. Can't learn anything now until I get the new OR in a couple business-day weeks. Thanks.

As far as child waypoints go, I use GSAK to export a gpx file of child waypoints to a sub folder in my custom POI folder that I load as custom poi's with it's own custom symbol. Its very fast and easy and keeps my waypoint list uncluttered and much easier to manage. When I export the child waypoints to its folder it is just written over so I always have a fresh list to match the caches that I sent to the Oregon (no more Colorado ). I need my new Oregon to play with now. A child waypoint is a waypoint that has not been "used" or "activated" yet and has not been moved to normal waypoint file of the OR? Custom POIs in a custom POI folder sounds like a good solution to protecting waypoints from accidental deletetion but I did not know this was possible to do. So you are converting waypoints that you want to keep into points of interest? Is this technique something I could read more about win MapSources help file? Okay, where? Thanks.

What I did on the CO and hopefully can still do on the OR when I did a couple recent multicaches was to just create a "dummy" waypoint and then edit its coordinates to what I needed. This waypoint is outside of the geocache gpx so I could GoTo it.

It is the term "child" that I have never fully understood? Is the child wp still part of the gpx because you have not gone after that particular geocache yet? I don't do elaborate geocaching. Recently I have done paperless caches but I've loaded them directly from the "Send to GPS" option on the geocache page. These may actually still get saved on the Colorado as a .gpx--I don't remember when I went into the CO file structure via my PC what the file extention was that I deleted to remove my old spent geocaches. I don't appreciate the software engineer that is forced to design how software will work but might not have a clue what geocaching is. Just like the PC's operating system I LOVE software that offers otions--that doesn't restrict me in in what I can reset or delete. After I finish using the GPSr I'd like to "clean it up", delete geocaches I'm finished with and clear and reset fields like Recent Finds, Odometers, Routes, Barometric Pressure charts, and no longer needed Waypoints--you name...get rid of it...if no longer needed. I may not be managing some of this correctly but perhaps that is because there are no instructions or tutorials for the CO or OR explaining just what Garmin's intentions are. It isn't good enough for me that I can go into the files and delete some items to clean them up that way if other things I'd like to reset such as barometric data still cannot be reset. If there is "logic" why something cannot be reset I would like to, in the course of paying $600 for hardware and maps, be privileged to know what it is and that it was not because some programmer didn't know better and the developer didn't care. IMO it is a disservice that Garmin does not discuss their products with white papers and/or tutorials or communicate at all with us. If I'm done with a geocache in the field I can see why I would want to keep them until I log my finds. Once that is done though it doesn't make sense that the only way to delete them is to interface with the PC and load new geocaches or to enter the GPSr files and to delete a file. There should be an option choice in the GPS to not only delete ALL Found caches but also to delete an individual Found cache and likewise options to delete ALL caches regardless of whether they are found or not--why develop restrictive tools? Regarding Waypoints... I recently learned something that I was not applying correctly because I didn't know better _because_ there was no Garmin material to inform me. Using or playing with the GPS one can end up with many waypoints but there is no way to "lock" a waypoint that you don't want to delete. I end up in the GPS having to individually delete 20 waypoints I don't need so I can prevent from deleting 4 that I want to keep. If I deleted all waypoints then the onces I want to save would be gone. If there was a way to lock a waypoint OR maybe better yet a way of converting a waypoint to a POI and moving it physically to a different file of added POIs it would take care of the problem and one could globally delete all other unprotected waypoints in one fell swoop. The work around I learned of is to start using MapSource to hold waypoints I want to keep and easy delete ones I don't want to keep, then delete all waypoints in the GPS, and then, when needed, load waypoints I need back into the GPS. I suppose that even if I had a 2" thick reference manual for the CO or OR I wouldn't use it until I had learned a lesson the hard way first. It may or may not become apparent why if you choose not to do a PN-40 wiki. If you choose not to do one I'm thinking that will be a sign not to need to consider one further. Thanks for reading through my meanderings.

Does the screen ever get real smudgy so that you are wanting to clean it off every time you look at it or does a matte finish help mask this? Aside from text entries and navigating around on the screen I was pretty good handling the R-n-R. From what I've read though I shouldn't be regretting the switch.