PISA-caching

Yes, the only reason for creating this "virtual" category would be to send it to peer review. This way we could everybody tell, what changes we would make to the "Shop24 Machines" category. If the users want, that the "Shop24 Machines" category stays at the current state with 11 waymarks and no chance to ever find additional waymarks, they just vote "Nay", and if they want to change the "Shop24 Machines" category to something new (option #2 or #3), then they vote yes. In case the "virtual" category would pass peer review, we would delete the "virtual" category and change the existing "Shop24 Machines" category. I still don't know, if this is doable. I can't remember that this ever been done. What I definitely don't want is to delete the "Shop24 Machines" category (and the 11 waymarks) and replace it with a new category. Sooooo, what do the rest of you think? Is something like that doable? Is there any rule against it? Do you think that it is too much effort for just one category or a good example for other, similar categories?

You keep answering the question "Why should the status quo be changed?" for us. I can't answer that question for others, but for me: NO, the category doesn't need a change, because I want that icon. There's an icon for historical markers in every US state and lots of other icons that I won't ever have. So, that's (for me) not the reason. My reason is that the category wouldn't make it through peer review today, and my very first choice would be, what you absolutely do NOT want: Delete/archive the category. So, if a new category won't make it through peer review, what do we do with it? We change the category description until the category has a chance to do it. That's what we are trying with the "Shop24 Machines" category. What about a new idea? What if we created a new category, include in the description, that this is not the description of a new category, but the changed description of the "Shop24 Machines" category. If we send this new category to peer review, every waymarker can either accept that the "Shop24 Machines" category is changed or say Nay to any change. If this category makes it through peer review, we delete it and change the "Shop24 Machines" category and if it fails, we keep it as it is. Maybe a silly idea and not doable, but an idea that I just had and wanted to share with you.

Well, fortunately we both live in countries that allow our opinion to be heard. The difference between the "Shop24 Machines" category and the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category is (for me), that I can't really think of a change to the "Yellow Arrow Lookup" category that keeps the original idea alive (but if somebody else does, I'm interested in a new discussion - same goes for other categories like "Kissmobile Sightings"), while I could imagine that a change to the "Shop24 Machines" categories name and description could make this category accessible again AND keep the "character" of the category. "Unusual" is NOT the final term (see that I wrote that "unusual" is too subjective), and could also be "unique" (only one vending machine per country/state?), "rare", "huge", "out of place", "extraordinary", "curious", … English is not my mother tongue, so I used "unusual" just to say that we are not looking for usual vending machines, that sell usual goods. We have agreed on (and made) changes of other categories. Some new leaders had a hard time to do it, because the changes were necessary, but at the same time the new leader didn't want to change the initial idea of the category. Same goes with the "Shop24 Machines" category. I think, at first we have to decide which of the three options are best. We now know that you prefer option #1. But most of the postings above say, that the category should be changed. Some want vending machines offering "unusual" (ooops, I wrote it again) goods, while others concentrate of the amount of goods. I think both groups agree, that the vending machine has to be available 24h, but apart from that I don't know whether the majority is preferring option #2 or #3.

As it is a milestone for me I thought that it is time to update my stats. I now have 200 First-Category-Post-in-a-Country waymarks (Copyright by fi67 ). That's more than double of what I had 3 years ago. Also, due to our travels of the last few years, the number of different countries has increased from 9 to 15. The 200 waymarks per country: Austria - 113 Albania - 6 Bosnia and Herzegovina - 4 Croatia - 2 Hungary - 1 Italy - 1 Monaco - 14 Montenegro - 2 North Macedonia - 21 Norway - 2 Poland - 1 Serbia - 19 Slovakia - 4 Slovenia - 1 Sweden - 9 With these 200 waymarks I covered 183 different categories, which means that there are a few categories, where I have the first waymark in different countries. For example, I have the first "Official Local Tourism Attractions" waymark in Bosnia & Herzegovina, North Macedonia and Serbia.

This very nasty bug is still alive. I noticed that a waymark might have the right coordinates at the beginning, but if you change another variable it might also change East to West additionally. Of course I try to keep an eye on that, but from time to time I do minor changes to some of my older waymarks and don't realize that the coordinates were also changed. A good way to check it, is to open "My waymarks" and look at the tiny map in the upper right corner and go through every page of the own waymarks.

In 2012 I had the idea for "Unusual vending machines" and I was not the first one. It turned out that a criteria like "unusual" or "has a 'wow' effect" are too subjective. In my humble opinion there are 3 possibilities: 1. Leave the category as it is. This is the worst possibility, that will keep the 11 waymarks with no chance to add anything. 2. Severly change the criteria for the category to something slightly familiar with the current 11 waymarks. -> "Unusual" vending machines, that may only offer a very limited variety of goods. This might become an interesting category, but it is difficult to find criteria that are as objective as possible. 3. Remove the brand "Shop24" and otherwise keep as much of the current criteria as possible. This might be similar vending machines that offer many different everyday goods like "Shop24", but have a different brand. "Boring", but would be as close to the initial idea as possible. My first choice was possibility 2. If we see, that it is impossible to find a good category description for that option, I would choose #3.

No need to shout. I was just asking.

What exactly do you mean by "let this category just go away"? Delete it? Leave it as it is?

Today I was looking for information of a specific milestone in Skopje, North Macedonia and found the Austrian website http://lupa.at/. The database includes more than 30,000 antique stone monuments and more than 60,000 photos. Unfortunately, it only includes monuments that are in or in front of museums and offers the information only in German language (let me know if you need help). The main focus is of course Europe, but the database contains items to be found in more than 30 countries (unfortunately only one monument in the USA and none in Canada), but it is a very useful source for information on waymarks in the categories Milestones, (ancient) Relief Art Sculptures, and probably much more.

Lately I posted a Lucky 7 waymark in Skopje, North Macedonia. Now I noticed that I covered another department and will find other waymarks in other departments too. I'm planning to change my Lucky 7 waymark accordingly, but the category description says: "If you like, you can add something to your Lucky 7 at a later date. I suppose some will find additional Waymarks down the road. Just send one of us a note indicating you have edited your Waymark. I will be watching to see who is leading the pack and make note of this here and in the forums." How serious is that to be taken? Do the officers really still keep track of the tally numbers? Do you send a note to the officers when you add a waymark to one of your Lucky 7 waymarks?

Don't worry, I won't even try it. Not because I don't have a photo of the entire building, but because the door handle is blurred ( I focused on the statue) and IMHO not big enough for a default photo. I just wanted to know how strict the rule with the photo of the entire building is. IMHO it is a difference, if the door handle is part of e.g. a church, where a photo of the entire building makes a lot of sense, and my example, where the handle and the shop are completely modern architecture, but built into an older house. Anyway, now that I know, I will always take a photo of the entire building, just to be sure.

Well, the problem is, that the category didn't exist, when I took the photos. I took several photos of another door handle I found in my hometown AFTER the category description was finished. The only three photos that could be used for the door handle in North Macedonia can be seen on my other waymark. Since the original photos have a resolution of 5472 * 3648 pixels, I could crop one of them to show just the handle, but it would be slightly blurred and only around 600 * 400. If I cropped it to show to the entire (but not interesting) pole the photo would be 2000 * 3000. But I have no photo of the whole building. So, no, I don't think I have enough and the door handle deserves a much better photo of it alone.

Thank you both for the feedback. Too bad I won't ever visit Skopje again. It would have been the first waymark of that category in North Macedonia , but if somebody should visit my other waymark, he/she can take some photos of the door handle and create the waymark. Talking about photos: Requiring a photo of the entire building makes sense in most cases, but this particular door handle is part of a modern watch shop that is on the ground floor of an older building. In other words: The modern door handle has nothing to do with the old building that is only visible above the shop. Would a photo of the shop/groundfloor in such rare cases be better/enough?

Looking at the photos of our visit of North Macedonia last year I found that I coincidentally took a photo of a modern, but artistic door handle of a watch shop: The door handle was made by the same artist (Vlado Kostov) as the human statue waiting and looking at his watch (see his signature at the top of the bigger circle). Unfortunately, I have no detailled photo of the handle and no photo of the entire building, but nevertheless I wanted to give an example of a modern artistic door handle and wanted to know, if modern door handles like this one are also accepted. The category description doesn't explicitly in- or exclude them.

You're welcome.

...and also the maps? If so, I would try the URL I posted in my last note and try different browsers.

If I look at your profile, I can't see your stats or maps. Maybe it has something to do with that. Funny: If I look for waymarks I have visited in Oklahoma, I get no results (which is why I have never been there), but if I change the uid parameter to your id (https://www.Waymarking.com/wm/search.aspx?f=1&wo=True&wft=3&uid=32b5057e-ca17-4034-add6-9367887d07f3&s=37&ct=2&st=2) I can see that you visited 4601 waymarks there. Correct?

It is. If I click on "Waymarks I've Visited" I get all the visits I have logged. Then I can filter the ones that I visited in a specific country, if I chose the country at "Limit search to the following country". Or did I misunderstand the task? But if you click on "My Visits" you just get the last 1000 logs (including the "Leave Comment" entries) and you won't be able to perform a filter of any kind.

Well, if it were clear what to submit (see Max and 99's question above), the number of submissions would probably increase. As it is now, I will just post one waymark in that category and go. Fortunately, I have a visit in that category already.

In the category description you find "definitions" that future waymark owners and/or the officers can't judge on a comprehensible basis. Defintions like "enough general interest for most people" or "must be relatively unknown to most people". Also I find the continous comparison with "the very best virtual geocaches" confusing. Even if the category creator knew, what he was talking about, I don't (exactly) know it and I'm unable to learn it from the category description. And Keith, tozainamboku hasn't logged on for the last two years. So, his idea(s) for the category are gone. I think somebody should have a strategy for this category and make it clear by changing the description to a more precise definition. Torgut is the new category leader, so he should discuss that with the other (active) officers.

I think the category needs a new name (like lumbricus suggested 6 years ago) and/or a new description. I have no idea what creates a "wow" in the officers or visitors brains. For me, the existance of an information board disqualfies a waymark for this category. Maybe this is why the cold war era spy Headquarters doesn't qualify, but I don't know. I once posted this waymark and there is no information about it to be found. It is attached to the most famous cathedral in Wien (Vienna) and hundreds or thousands of tourists used to pass it every day, but I don't think that anybody knows about it, because I have seen numerous documentary movies about St. Stephans cathedral and read many webpages about it, but I have never seen any Information about the 15 chronograms on this epitaph. This makes it a very well kept secret. It creates a WOW in my brain, but I doubt that others will give it a high value. Therefore I haven't even tried it.

Meanwhile the bench was accepted in the category "Dedicated Benches" and I followed the advice of Alfouine, submitted it once more to the category "Artistic Seating" and asked for a vote of all the officers, to depend not just on the opinion of ONE officer who thinks it "isn't artistic enough for this category". We'll see. UPDATE: The waymark has been accepted in the category "Artistic Seating". Thanks, Alfouine and the officer who accepted it.

Well, the art is, that somebody has the idea to recreate the tree stomp out of bronze metal and transform it to a bench using the rest of the wood that is still usable. Then you need someone who is able to do it. You need someone who is able to dig out the tree stomp, make a form, create a big bronze tree stomp, make it look like wood and create a bench from the rest of the wood. This is by far more art then to take a regular bench, paint 2 birds and 3 clouds on it and call it an artistic seating. Even I could do that, but I wouldn't have the idea or the know-how to create that bronze bench. And if they asked an artistic sculptor to make a monument to commemorate this old tree, who am I to say it is not art. Anyway, enough of it. Your idea is great, but I'm not a local, so I am not sure, if the bench is really a secret (remember, it even has its own Wikipedia page), but we'll see. Thanks for the idea. I will think about it.

Another category just came to my mind: "Superlatives". Because this bench is the first (if not only) monument (in Serbia), that is commemorating a plant. And what about "Dedicated Benches"? The description says "The bench must have a plaque that honors someone or something in order to qualify for this category." There is a (separate) plaque and it honors something (the old tree). I wonder what the officers think.

You mean, I could resubmit it to the Artistic Seating category and ask for a call for a vote? Well, I would get one "No" for sure and there aren't that many officers in that category. So chances are slim and I don't think that I want to waste their and my time. Besides, the bench was already accepted in the Wiki category.