OGA - Admin

I can no longer EDIT the Original Post. So what I will do is create an offsite listing, and send to to Cache-Tech and perhaps he can keep editing it. Failing that, at least people can skim down the list and get the groups by searching. OGA - Admin

I was able to edit the Original Post. I don't know if it is because it is pinned now, or if this is just a temporary priveledge. I added Swifteroo's COG to the local list I added Parker's Saskatchewan MSN Group I added Gonzo-YT's Yukon page Either way, I hope we can build a huge list. I stumbled across other groups in Canada, but I didn't want to go too far in case some are no longer active. OGA - Admin P.S. Cache-Tech, I will let you know if I need your help, but I hope to not bother you. I do that enough LOL.

Well that is inconvenient! I thought I would be able to go back and continuously update the Original Post, but it appears that is not possible. So I guess, if people can post links to their groups in this thread, everyone will have access to them, and people can creat offsite pages. Would have been nice to have it here for anyone that comes onto the forums so it was centralized. If anyone has a better solution, please post it here! OGA - Admin

Hello all in Canada! Since we Geocachers are now beginning to discuss policies and guidelines with various land owner groups I thought it might be helpful for our "Reviewers" and local cachers as well as other groups to create a list of Provincial/Territory Geocaching groups. Please only request addition if you have a web site to link to. Alberta British Columbia British Columbia Geocaching Association Manitoba Manitoba Geocaching Association New Brunswick Maritime Geocaching Association Alantic Canada Geocaching Association Newfoundland Alantic Canada Geocaching Association Northwest Territories Nova Scotia Maritime Geocaching Association Alantic Canada Geocaching Association Nunavut Ontario Ontario Geocaching Association Prince Edward Island Maritime Geocaching Association Alantic Canada Geocaching Association Quebec Géocaching Québec Saskatchewan Yukon Yukon Geocaching - May not be official, but a good start for Yukon Should any local groups wish to be added to this list, it can be added below. Some are added as example, and can be removed if requested by the operator. Alberta Locals Calgary Area Cachers Geocaching Edmonton Geocaching Alberta South British Columbia Locals Vancouver Island GPS Mid-Island Geocachers 'Wack Area Geocaching - Fraser Valley between Abbotsford and Hope Kootenay Geocachers Lower Mainland Geocachers Manitoba Locals New Brunswick Locals Newfoundland Locals Northwest Territories Locals Nova Scotia Locals Nunavut Locals Ontario Locals Golden Horseshoe Geocachers Central Ontario Geocachers National Capital Geocachers Prince Edward Island Locals Quebec Locals Amicale des Géocacheurs de la Grande Région de Québec Géochercheurs du Saguenay-Lac-St-Jean Saskatchewan Locals Yukon Locals

Hello all. The OGA Website now lists the relevant Policies for Geocache placement that we either have helped create of have been given by land owners for Ontario. We have also included quick links to the online Petition started by Keith Watson on his Golden Horseshoe Geocachers site. It is our current intention to provide information from a non-partisan perspective. Which means that we are only posting anything that supports either side of the discussion but we will try to provide ALL options for discussion. They may come a time when we (OGA Exec) will begin to post commentary on these Policies or other such content, but for now we are only providing links to information from third-party sources. At this time, we do not provide any 'introduction' to these policies and post them as they were provided to us, word for word. Any information contained in those documents are the intellectual property of their creator and OGA has no authority to enforce, alter or update these policies. OGA - Admin

I must correct a few assumptions that I made in my previous posting. First off, Parks Canada does not take the removal of caches lightly and there naturally has been communication between the policy creation developer and the actual park staff. The actual comment that Parks Canada had said to me was that the individual Wardens would not be able to create a report for OGA and send it to us. I did not correctly understand what I had been told. The Wardens, at least in this case, are willing and open to discuss the caches they removed with the cache owner and/or the person that picks up the cache. That is certainly more in line with what we could hope for. Everyone understands that information is best received directly from those involved. I would hope that Parks Canada would openly share any dialogue from their staff with the Geocaching community, in the same regard as the Geocachers have shared their concerns with Parks Canada. I must confess to having been feeling bothered that I have not seen much in the way of information coming back to the Geocaching community. Parks Canada needs time to gather the info, and I should not be so impatient. It would be nice to have a bit of an update once in a while to pass along to the community but looking at things from Parks Canada's perspective... if they give indications that things are looking good, then something happens, it would be difficult for them to back pedal. In the same way it would be for them to change the policy frequently during the evaluation period. Their staff would become discouraged and frustrated with the frequent updates and never know how to proceed. The main challenge that I must learn to face is that, even the most persuasive arguement may take a while to travel up the chain and back down again. That which seems simple to us may take time to get approval due to various internal reasons. I just wish this process could develop faster, it is hard to wait when you are excited about something that you see as a benefit. That is no excuse for lashing out, and I apologize for that. OGA - Admin

We have no desire to be the group 'representing Canadian geocachers' alone. We (OGA) have a vested interest in the entire Parks Canada discussion as it affects us. But since it also affect BC and all the other provinces and territories and foreign visitors to Canada, we would certainly want to work in tandem with BCGA. So while it is nice of you "DogsbreathCanada" to say that OGA is doing well enough, we do not want to do it alone. We would prefer that an open line of communication between BCGA and OGA existed and we could keep each other informed of things that are said and developed. We have some plans in the developement stage, and when we are ready to move forward, should BCGA like a 'heads-up' we would certainly value their input. OGA - Admin

{I am leaving my entire post - but read the one after for my corrections - I was wrong on some items} With regard to "The Canadian Geocaching Community" creating a Policy that WE can hand to Parks Canada. We (OGA) made numerous recommendations during our meettin and subsequently since the meeting, all of which have been posted in this forum thread already. Parks Canada has been fairly open to comments, and while we (OGA) have noticed some glaring discrepancies in statements made by Parks Canada, I am not going to outline them here as that only breeds distrust and comtempt. It is easy for the general population (that would be non-Parks Canada staff) to think they know how Parks Canada should do things. I myself can say that I do not think that Parks Canada has approached this subject in a 100% effective manner and some of the methods they are employing are questionable to say the least. Parks Canada is evaluating Geocaching at this time, and while dozens of effective policies have been created North America wide, Parks Canada has chosen to "Shoot First and Ask Questions Later" but has not made any attempt to get actual raw information from their own staff that are the ones that actually could see the impact of Geocaching. Two caches were removed from Georgian Bay National Park last week, and I was told that the park staff are too busy to prepare a report on the cache removals. I cannot imagine how the policy creators at Parks Canada can effectively do their job without valuable input from the very staff members that removed the caches and ultimately could give the best onsite descriptions and feelings about how Geocaching has/had impacted the land of the park. So while we (OGA or anyone else that caches) attempts to figure out how to best ensure Physical Caching is permitted to be enjoyed in National Parks and Historic Sites, all we can do is send emails to Parks Canada, while their own staff pull caches and does not provide any direct front line information to their own policy makers. Like I said long ago in the Ontario Parks thread.... it didn't have to be like this, they could have consulted with the Geocaching community before charging ahead with a poorly researched and poorly implemented policy. And now that they are attempting to get some feedback, they still could communicate much better to actually become an informed entity, both internally and externally. Communication is the key to success in all business. Some groups are slow to learn effective communication and to be open to new ideas. This kind of dinosaur mentality usually results in either extinction or lack of support. Ultimately it comes down to one thing.... does Parks Canada actually want to promote their Parks through a free marketing vehicle like Geocaching, or is this just a way for Parks Canada to appear to address concerns then ultimately claim they cannot support new intiatives like this as they are too uncontrollable? OGA - Admin edit: Added the opening section requesting you to read the follow-up

wrong account Grrrr

The link that was posted by "Dontkillbill" was very insightful. Another member of the OGA Executive had quoted certain sections of it in an Email to me, but it was nice to have a link posted in the forums. I'll post it again, so more people might use it. Parks Canada's "Minister's Round Table" - Feb 2005 I find it very interesting that we are now working to develop policies to help Parks Canada achieve this 'recommendations'. Also, I understand that the main Parks Canada contact which can be emailed at rec.activities@pc.gc.ca has been receiving some emails, and I hope that more people send even more, and more and more. They need to know how we can make Geocaching a part of their program. As it says in the "Minister's Round Table" document, they want to develop new ways to attract more visitors, and explore new ideas.... We all know Geocaching is ideal for this. So, write that email, and continue to post your inputs here. I know some people think that things that have already been said don't need to be said again..... but repetition helps reinforce the message. Beside, when Parks Canada keeps hearing the same comments from dozens or hundreds of cachers, it shows a unity. A clear agreement that we want to enjoy the Parks that Canada Parks has to offer. OGA - Admin

Okay I've given this some thought. I'll try to do that HTML thingy for ease of viewing. 1... 1812 on the Niagara Parkway: Part 1 The best historical cache that leads to a beautiful location of majesty. If you are in Niagara Falls or Niagara-on-the-lake, this is a MUST do cache. 2... Whitewater Wonder Located South-East of Algonquin Provincial Park, this cache has a great location and you can really soak in the atmosphere. 3... Bruce Almighty - Bonus This should be the whole series, but if you find this one, then your did them all. Outstanding set of caches, and one I dream of emulating. Plan a whole day for this series, and start early. 4... The Dogwood Trail The only Geocache I've ever seen that a blind person can successfully complete as easily as a sighted person. Great job to make caching available to everyone. 5.... Ohh, bedtime, will add it tomorrow. The Blue Quasar Edit: Oh crap, I forgot I was logged in as OGA - Admin, will move it tomorrow too

The Policy as posted is all we have to go on right now. We had a date for a meeting, but honestly, it was a week or two after the policy was released and we (OGA) simply didn't have enough time to prepare so we asked for a summer meeting I do not have that date, and to the best of my knowledge we still have had no contact with Ontario Parks. So all we have is the Policy or BAN that they sent to Cache-Tech. I know nothing else at this time. It is easy for us informed people to see the good side of Geocaching, wish it was that easy for these Government types. I just don't know where they got all this bad info from. I just don't get it why these Government groups are targeting Geocaching as some terrible Eco-invasion. OGA - Admin

The discussions between Parks Canada and OGA have mainly been in Email format. We had the one meeting at the beginning of April as mentioned far up in this thread. I have also talked on the phone once to the main Parks Canada contact since that meeting. I strongly encourage everyone to send their feelings, thoughts and suggestions to the email provided in the Parks Canada Policy, that was posed by Cache-Tech. I also believe that anyone that wants to contribute to the online petition created by Keith Watson, on his Golden Horseshoe Geocachers webpage, do so as well. I additionally think that if someone wants to write to their MP and/or MPP about this, or directly to Parks Canada, that they should. To quote the great Canadian rock band Trooper "When you know there's something wrong, why don't you right it?" It has been my experience that the main contact from Parks Canada is genuinely interested in our involvement, although sometimes they should get things they say checked by the geocaching community before they say them, and that they provide replies to all suggestions and issues in a very timely manner. It comes down to this.... Parks Canada has provided us with a policy and an email address to send them feedback. They asked for the feedback, so now the ball is your court.... provide the feedback. Help them to understand the impacts, benefits and drawbacks of Geocaching. Suggest how the hobby can be enjoyed without causing problems. Be positive, encouraging and all of those other methods that achieve success. As for posting the conversations between Parks Canada and OGA, I would have to get permission from Parks Canada to do that, as email exchange of this nature is done in an informal manner. But the basis of our conversations and the ideals that have been put forward are already in this thread. If you want a clear picture of Parks Canada's current situation then read their policy. If you want to know OGA's, then read this thread. We are however planning to create an online PDF or similar to detail what WE have said and done. But you have to understand that much of our discussions are exactly that, discussions, and not dictating terms. To date, we still have not received a list of any caches that Parks Canada are reviewing or might be affected by this policy. I will say that I told the Parks Canada contact that should all the caches be removed and then a policy is created to permit physical caches, that the original locations that were removed should have first priority to be put back in as long as they are suitable under the new policy. The cache owner should have a three month window to that location. And they should also have the right to reactivate an archived cache, not have to submit a new one. That would be up to the individual cache owner. Provided that Parks Canada and Geocaching.com policies are met, the original cache owner should basically have 'squatters rights' to a location for a period of up to three months, and after that time the area becomes 'open territory' OGA - Admin

Oh yes, I have a complete list of Ontario CACHES... I thought you said CACHERS Total # of caches EVER, 3670 Total # Archived 678 These numbers are accurate to 4 days ago. My PQ's are spread out, so I never actually match GC.com 100%

I wish we knew how many cachers there are in each Province too. That would be a very useful resource I think Res's number seem fair. I don't think they can easily scan 'hom co-ords" to find that out because of the immense size of the user data base. It did come up in talks though, and honestly I doubt that PC has any idea how many people are caching, because even per account there often isn't just one person. This is why we suggested that they monitor the current caches to see how many visits each receive. To date, we still do ont have a list of caches that PC thinks are on their land. So we are still waiting. I assume that when they provide us with this list that we will be given time to check them all and find out for sure too. I don't think we should automatically start pulling caches based on their list without verification. OGA - Admin

For the LOCK option, you can still view the cache but you cannot actually even post a note on the cache any longer. See this link and try to post a note, you will see the effect of the lock Big Guns by Res 2100 And I don't think anyone knows how many cachers there are in Canada, or how many groups have formed. But I hope that all groups can agree to work together to show that we all are concerned about this. OGA - Admin

Quick reply as I have to get heading to work The LOCK option is already in place on numerous caches. Most notably the "Yellow Jeep Locationless", but also "Big Guns" by Res2100 and "2004 Calendar Cache" by The Blue Quasar I suspect that all of the Archived Locationless caches have the lock option enabled. Big-J has clamped down on the ability to log finds on Archived caches and I expect that this will grow to prevent loopholes. I agree fully that most Canadian Cachers will be unaware of the Policy. As far as I know when Cache-Tech gets a submission, he/she checks the co-ordinates and if it falls onto Parks Canada land, CT would contact the cache with the Policy and tell them to get the proper permission. How I would like to see it all regulated is that to place a cache, the cacher would have to get site permission from the Park Superintendent or Park Approver for Caching and probably visit the site to ensure the placement meet within the Policy guidelines. They would have the the final say on suitability. Those that are unaware of the policy will be made aware during the approval process. Be that by Cache-Tech, or by a Parks Canada rep contacting the owner if Cache-Tech didn't know it was a protected site. I was not saying that cachers currently place with no regard for the local ecology, far from it. But this way everyone's interests are protected and ensured. But there are caches out there that go too far beyond the limitations of park level rules for off trail use. Again, it would be up to the Park Superintendent or staff to decide what is appropriate. Remember that right now, for every cache that is placed, the cache owner is supposed to get permission to place the cache on the land. For the most part when it comes to a public park I doubt anyone does, but for Parks Canada sites that will be a requirement. OGA - Admin

Sorry, I posted under the wrong account.... (it was late, and I was on a Pocket PC) I am only passing on what I was told, and why. Parks Canada has made that a term of moving forward. We tried to change that, but we were not able to convince them to leave them. Two of my favourite caches are placed on Parks Canada - National Historic Site locations. One of those isn't even actually on their land but the initial coordinates are (it's a multi) Imagine my fun when I get to call my friend and say "You know what, that cache you have that starts at the fort... you gotta move the coordinates off the land and bring the people there second cause you can't post the coordinates of where they count the windows because they referrence an exactly spot that is a protected location." How do you explain that to someone... the cache location is fine, no one has a concern there.... but the posted coordinates for the multi is a source of concern for the Historic Site staff? Maybe that won't be the issue. Anyways, I was just passing on what I was told by Parks Canada. I think everyone deserves to know how they may be affected. I believe in being open with information. Remember also that for everything I end up appearing to be sticking up for Parks Canada, there have been probably an equal number of emails sent to Parks Canada pointing out that things that they have suggested won't work, or are not possible etc etc. So if you want to talk nasty... then here are both sides Parks Canada can force Cache Tech or other volunteers to Archive the physical caches based upon their policy and cachers can do little about it. A lock could be placed to prevent people logging it after it is archived Geocachers can place caches and lie about where the cache is, and no one from the Parks will know. Completely unregulated, caches would be so far off trail in locations that are sensitive and Parks Canada would be unable to stop it. Is this how our "family friendly" hobby should operate? Is this how our "governement officials" should treat those that want to enjoy the park? I think everyone knows that the above statements are not responsible ways to act, on either side. Let me ask this.... why are you so opposed to archiving the current caches, if it means that you can put it back in just over 6 months under a new policy that permits you to use that spot because it meets the guidelines? It becomes a new cache, ready to be enjoyed again. Updated, and revisited... recycled if you will. Older caches can get stale. Imagine if people removed their caches every year or two and allowed a new cache near that spot. A constant supply of new caches, and you get to enjoy the same locations repeatedly. Instead of now, where unless a new cache is placed most cachers rarely go back to enjoy the park again. OGA - Admin

Until a Cache Owner is contacted by a Parks Canada Park Superintendent any and all caches are still active. You may seek them, but be aware that should Parks Staff talk to you about it, I would advise you to say that you are aware of the Policy. Be careful not to violate any rules of the Park, which I assume are posted. Just because a cache is off trail, does not give you permission to violate any posted rules regarding off-trail activity. Ultimately, you the seeker are responsible for your actions. Parks Staff will contact the Cache Owners regarding the cache placement, to arrange to meet with the Cache Owner and remove the cache as well as get information to help create a better policy for the Parks and Cachers alike. This communication is critical if we ever hope to establish physical Caches on land governed by Parks Canada. OGA - Admin

I have had a report of a cache owner being contacted with an offer to "Pick up their Cache" for them. The Cache in question is located in an Ontario Parks location. A few things of note, It is nice that fellow Cachers are offering to save Cache Owners the trouble of going to get the Cache, however, the proper procedure is required. - Parks Superintendent will contact the Cache Owner - Physical Caches must be removed by 15th April, 2006 (no need to remove them now) This serves a few important items. - It shows Ontario Parks that the Cache Owner is responsible for their own Cache - It confirms that proper contact has been established and verified - It allows Cache Owners to meet with Park Superintendents to discuss Geocaching, which may help implement changes to the Ban Policy - It ensures that the cache is really removed. It also requires Ontario Parks to fullfill their responsibilites of contacting the Cache Owner and requesting the removal. It's their policy, they need to enforce it just as much as Cachers do. It is a requirement that a Parks Superintendent contacts the Cache Owner to inform them of the terms of the Policy. If you are unsure of your requirements, please read the Policy and/or ask me for OGA's stance on the policy and what you need to do, and when. OGA - Admin

Oh.... Cache-Tech. Just my two cents worth.... You might want to consider that if after a year, Ontario Parks begins sending you requests for an ARCHIVE of a cache that they MUST return the cache container to you as proof that they actually did ARCHIVE the cache. They might claim they picked it up, and haven't, or plan to sometime in the future. The Geocachers of Ontario cannot allow Ontario Parks to litter. And by saying that the cache has been archived without proving they picked it up would be littering. So until they PROVE that they picked up the cache, it should remain active, just like any other cache. Or you could do like you have before.... post a note requesting the cache be picked up and if a 'recognized geocacher' says they picked it up then it could be archived. OGA - Admin edit: added the "post a note section"

One VERY IMPORTANT point in the BAN NO ONE has to remove their cache for a YEAR! And they have to contact you too! That is their rule. I guarantee you that my only cache in a Provincial Park will be sitting in the same spot until the 15th of April 2006. And unless I get a contact message from the PARKS SUPERVISOR, I won't be touching it at all. If they touch it before the 15th of April 2006 and/or have not contacted me I will put it right back again and advise them to READ THE POLICY! So, if you have a cache in a Provincial Park, or know someone that does... tell them that they do not have to remove their cache until the 15th of April, 2006. Even then, I'll wait till the last possible second to remove it, or should I say relocate it. There are many places in the Park that are not actually Ontario Parks land. Hydro Easements are a good example. And then Ontario Parks would have no jurisdiction to remove my cache. It's not on their land, and not affected by their policy/BAN. OGA - Admin edit: typo and clarification, not annoyance.

I would like to thank "Curious George" for clairifying that the comment was not directed at me. I stared at it wondering what I had said to offend. As for the SOCK PUPPET post by Cache-Tech. I guess in a way OGA - Admin could be viewed as a sock puppet account. So to be fair and honest, I will explain the difference. OGA - Admin is the account that The Blue Quasar (me) uses to bring information and opinions that are a direct result of conversation with some or all of the OGA Executives. It also is used for passing information that OGA has learned. When OGa holds its next election, which is scheduled for the 1st of October, if I am no longer the OGA - Admin, I will be passing this account to the new Administrator of OGA. I would like to suggest at this time that should the head of any recognized Provincial Caching Group wish to have a "Chat Session" that it is something I think would be beneficial. I also would hope that Cache-Tech and/or Cache-Advance and/or Cache-Agent would be welcome to attend as well. I don't mean to cut people out that are not the head of a Provincial Caching Group, but let's face it, sometimes the leaders have to have a meeting alone to get information straight and agree on directions to take. OGA Executives often chat about things, both serious and fun, and it has helped us develop our group a great deal. Due to the timeshift nature of Canada... 7pm PST/10pm EST would probably be best. The Blue Quasar OGA - Admin

Hmmm, interesting... I had read your posts and thought you had added some good content to the thread. Can you clairify and justify this statement? Please illustrate to me, and the rest of the thread, how I am wrong. And I said I only speak for the Members of OGA, which clearly indicates that I do not speak for British Columbia. Are you a member of BC's main geocaching group? I hope you conduct your meetings with more tact than you have shown in that posting. OGA - Admin

There has been a lot of content, some valid and some not so much that has been brought forward in this thread. Therefore I have much to respond to, and honestly, it will probably be a long one if I am to cover most of what has been directed in various directions. I must preface this by saying that all sides in this debate will take issue with one thing or another in this post. Be they cachers, or Parks Canada, or Geocaching.com reps. I don't mean any insult to anyone by what I am about to say, I am just providing either facts as I know them, or opinions I have and share with the other members of the OGA Exec as we have discussed them already, either voice or data. First off, If you are not aware, during our meeting with Parks Canada, OGA did present the option of using the existing cache base as a test group for evaluation. That was posted near the beginning of this thread. At this time, Parks Canada is unwilling to consider the idea of "Grandfathering" any existing caches. I have been told by Parks Canada that they are trying to work out the logistics of leaving a "FEW" caches to help understand the impact that caching is having. It is my opinion that Parks Canada is making a big mistake in forcing all existing caches to be removed. I base this on the fact that currently Parks Canada has not done anything to evaluate the current conditions, or even to find out where exactly these caches are located. That is a poor method of judging anything. To be able to make an informed decision, Parks Canada must identify where caches are located and visit the site for themselves. I know that even cachers will say that this is cost prohibitive. Not so. Currently Parks staff do maintenance along trails. This could be coordinated with a cache placer to visit the site. Secondly, Should groups or individuals decide that instead of waiting for an effective and realistic policy to be created, they are going to go around the system and place their own caches causes several problems. Mainly, Parks Canada is not going to respect the Geocaching groups and not be willing to work with anyone. Your actions make everyone else look guilty. Another important note is that should you decide to become this 'splinter cell' and get caught, then you are not "Geocaching" as you are not seeking an approved geocache. You are just a rogue element that broke the laws or rules of the park. Geocachers will not support you and Parks Canada will know that you are not Geocaching because all of the caches are out of the park. You may be prosecuted, and meanwhile the Geocaching community will have to work a lot harder to get Parks Canada to develop a policy because of your self-centred arrogance. Thirdly, OGA is not mandated to represent anyone except our own members. We have NO authority what-so-ever, with respect to Geocaching. But I guarantee you that Parks Canada is far more like to accept input from an organized group than from individuals. I understand some people's frustrations that they were not included in the initial meeting. We talked about that for the 7 hours we drove up. Honestly, we couldn't help that. We were invited. We had a limited amount of time in many respects. Don't fault us for trying, we believe what we did we did for the good of all concerned. We were lead to believe that this meeting was to discuss the Draft Policy and help fine tune it to make it effective. We were wrong, and intially very angry but we didn't show it. We (OGA) were able to re-educate Parks Canada on some of the misconceptions they had regarding Geocaching. Unfortunately Parks Canada had already released their policy at the park level and say they will not change it till next year. While I don't believe that any policy is carved in stone and cannot be altered at any time as conditions see fit, we are dealing with a multi-level group that has concerns and mandates to protect. Parks Canada, however, could have avoided much of the problems that they are going to face over the next few years if they would have simply talked to Geocahers. I strongly suspect that certain Provincial Parks added a negative influence to Parks Canada, and that caused this policy to be created without any input from Cache-Tech or the Geocaching community. Some people have asked about liability and other items that Parks Canada may be concerned about... here are the four things 1. Ecological impact to the environment, off trail use 2. Accidental damage to historic and/or cultural locations 3. Liability of the Parks in the case of injury 4. Pack-in Pack-out, leaving of items behind, littering. Here were our responses. 1. Policy to include that all caches MUST be within 3-5 meters of an established trail (this distance to be determined) 2. We don't permit physical caches to be placed such that they require a cacher to directly interact with an historic or cultural location 3. This point is irrelevant if a cache is within 3-5 meters of an established trail (see below) as the liability is the same as for hikers. 4. Littering is the purposeful disposal of material with the intention of abandoning it. As a cache is a montored item, this is irrelevant. The idea of a Parks approval for a cache location would rectify the four concerns by ensuring a eco-friendly location. If it is placed under the scrutiny of a park staff, they can see that the location is relatively safe and not "trampling" the local ecology. Further, they would see that the cache is not affecting an historic site, and is on the trail (or a step or two off). They also would have a contact person should there be an issue in the future with the cache. This investment of 10 minutes would generate free marketing, add awareness to the parks and provide additional recreational content. Normally, a Parks Canada site is a tourist location to begin with, we are just adding a new facet to draw more people to the park. It is clear to me, that should the suggested steps be implemented that there would be very few issues. I still maintain that forcing a removal of all caches is overkill and not required. But if that is the step that must be taking to help create a more effective policy in the near future, then it is an investment I encourage. Parks Canada, will have to commit, at least on the Ontario level, to working to develop physical caching policies. That is a requirement I feel must be made. Parks Canada have told me that it is in their mandate to work with Geocachers to create an effective way to monitor and encourage the activity as it mainly seeks to add interest in their sites. New York State has closed all of its State Parks.... I fear unless Parks Canada, and the other Provincial Parks authorities embrace new methods of generating interest in the parks, that the Federal and/or Provincial governments will be forced to reduce funding and eventually the parks that both Geocachers and Parks staff are trying to protect will be gone. For the British Columbia people, I have to tell you that I have been told by a person with contacts in many provinces that he saw the "British Columbia Parks Policy for Geocaching" and it is exactly the same as the Ontario Parks policy. You might want to review what Ontario is about to deal with, because you will too. Again, I must comment that Parks Canada cannot move slowly on developing a policy that permits physical geocaching on their/our park land. Yes, we are taxpayers and ultimately the land belongs to all Canadians, but Parks Canada is responsible for the creation of rules to protect that land. That doesn't mean they don't make mistakes, and when they do it is the responsibility of the affected groups to stand up for what they believe in. We can affect change, and we have the right to demand that our opinions and beliefs be considered. If Parks Canada is unwilling to listen at all, then of course more drastic steps would have to be taken. I don't believe that this will be the case. This policy was developed by a handful of people. People that have some understanding of caching. People that also have a lot of other things to be concerned about. While we try to educate them on how Virtuals will not work, and how a Multi is a great way to guide people around the park, they are also seeing peopl saying "I'm gonna put caches wherever I want, they can't stop me" It isn't easy for them to tell the difference between a good cache and bad cache. But while we say things like "We are a self-monitoring group", how will we address a rogue element like that? We can only say... "Well they aren't cachers, and we don't approve of that" And if another Provincial group, whether it is Alberta, Nova Scotia, British Columbia, Quebec, whatever wants to be "in the loop"... the door is open, but we can't make you come in.... you gotta do that yourself. So, in closing.... Parks Canada has a long road ahead of them, and I hope they are willing to work better with the Geocaching community because they didn't start off very well, but they seem to know that they can improve things a great deal and even benefit from caching. Geocachers have to learn to place caches more appropriately, and seek them more appropriately. If both sides don't smarten up, there won't be any parks left to argue over. OGA - Admin