4x4van

My Mini Van IS a 4WD!!!

I say "no", but others may feel differently. Who decides if a search is "unsuitable"? Shouldn't that decision be left to the searcher? The way I look at it, geocaching is a year-round sport. Anybody searching for a cache obviously would know if they are going to an area with heavy snow cover. While many wouldn't bother, others may look forward to the extreme challenge. I've found a number of caches under snow, although admittedly only 6-8". It adds a whole new dimension, since the "unnatural pile of rocks" or "unnatural pile of sticks" doesn't look nearly as unnatural under a foot of snow! But make it inactive? No. Perhaps adjust the terrain/difficulty ratings up during the "bad" season, but let the cacher decide if they want to attempt it in the conditions at the time.

Okay, here's mine: '89 Toyota 4WD Van (Hence my name!). 27x8.50-14 BFG All-Terrains, 2" lift all the way around, 8" 130W Halogen lights, K&N, Grade/Tilt indicator, GPS (duh!). This thing has surprised alot of people (myself included) with where I can get it into and back out of. It's seen more off-road than 90% of the SUVs on the roads today. Fully loaded LE model with captain's chairs, seating for 7, built-in ice maker (factory), power everything, shorter wheelbase and tighter turning radius than a Toyota Tercel! 335,000 miles and still going strong on the original drivetrain!

I agree completely. I never complained about the "type" of cache. There are days when I want to hike for 5-10 miles, and there are other days that I want, and enjoy, snagging a bunch of urban micros. Honestly, I'm fully aware that even a cache that I might personally consider lame, can still be considered a quality cache by many. But is it still a quality cache if it is not maintained when needed? I'm not talking about that kind of danger. As an example, one cache is located in the small island (CALTRANS Property) of a highway/freeway/crossstreet with alot of traffic; traffic that is moving fast coming off the freeway and fast getting on the freeway since there are no stop signs or lights. Yet it is rated a 1/1, and makes no mention of the situation. Not at all. I'm all for high cache density. And the areas that these are in are areas that I tend not to place caches in anyway, since the few that I have placed generally require hiking to get to. Again, it's not the type or number that bothers me. It's going out with a list of 10 caches for an afternoon with my son, and only finding 3 of the ten. And all of them are 1/1 rated caches. Then finding out those 7 that we didn't find all have numerous DNF logs spanning several months, with seemingly no attention from the placer. So in essence we wasted our time even looking for them. That I will!

Exactly. I never complained about "micros", or "urban caches", or any other "type" of cache. They all have their place, and can be done very well. And quite often are. But there are far too many caches that have no thought to them at all, regardless of the size or type. And when a cache has multiple DNFs spanning several months or more, with no response from the hider, even while the hider is still placing more in the area, I still have to wonder, "Why bother?" Part of placing a cache is the responsibility of maintaining that cache. If they are in the area (which obviously they are), how hard is it to swing by and take a look, archiving, disabling, or replacing it if necessary? Yes, I know I can "ignore them". But that's not my point. Some of his caches are in fact well thought out and enjoyable. How do I know the difference untill I search for one? So again I say, quality is more important than quantity, and I stand by that statement. Obviously, the term quality can mean many things to many people. But at the very least, a little bit of thought and the commitment to maintain the cache should be in everyone's definition of a quality cache. If you are unwilling or unable to maintain (or at least archive) a cache you placed, don't continue to place more untill you are.

In our area, we have a cacher who has flooded the area with caches. Many have numerous DNFs logged with no response/maintenance, are in questionable or even dangerous areas, some are micros in areas that would easily support full-sized caches, numerous logs reporting bad coordinates...Many caches are in places that you stand there, look around, and think "why here?". Now granted, everyone caches to their own drummer and everyone has their own opinion of good and bad caches, but still...If you can't at least maintain caches that have multiple DNFs or complaints, then maybe it's time to scale back your placements rather than continuing to flood the area with more. What is the point? My opinion of a good place to put a geocache is a place that I would enjoy going to even if there was not a geocache there. Show me something/somewhere interesting, pretty, neat, special, unique, even "hmmm, that's kinda cool". Just because you can put a cache somewhere doesn't mean you should put a cache there. It's Quality, not Quantity that makes a geocache special. I'm sorry if I sound bitter, but when I started this great activity called geocaching, I actually looked forward to the destination and the journey, not just the cache itself. But those kinds of caches are getting harder and harder to come by. And then when I've finally gotten to the cache (with the bad coordinates) in the bush (like every other bush in the area) beside the road (like every other road in the area) in an area that has absolutely nothing interesting to see, it's probably a micro (where a 5-gallon bucket would fit) or it's full of junk, even though it was just placed. When did this sport's purpose become nothing more than signing or hiding as many little slips of paper as possible? I'll say it once more, with feeling: It's Quality, not Quantity!!! Please, people, make Geocaching Shine!

Unethical? Unsportsmanlike? Don't take things so personally. It's what the market will bear. A possibility that hasn't been mentioned yet is that perhaps the seller(s) are in no hurry to get rid of the unit(s). Maybe their significant other wants them to sell it, or maybe he really likes the unit but doesn't use it much. If someone is willing to pay top dollar for it, he'll sell, but otherwise he's perfectly happy to keep the unit, perhaps as a spare. There's nothing unethical or unsportsmanlike about that. If you aren't willing to pay that price, don't. But it's the seller's option to ask what he is willing to sell it for. It would be like my vehicle. I drive a 1989 Toyota 4WD van. It has 330,000 miles on it. But it's also fully loaded, in immaculate condition, runs great, and everything works. It's been places that 90% of the 4wd SUVs on the road will never ever see, and will continue to surprise alot of people with where I can and do take it. And it's my baby! What's it worth? About $2000 max. What would I sell it for? Nothing less than $7000. Is that unethical of me? No, it simply means that I have no intention of selling it, but if someone is willing to pay me that much, well then... Now obviously, the GPS owner(s) in question do at least have some intention of selling, but again, maybe they're not "gung ho" about letting it go. If you want the unit, make an offer you feel is fair. If the seller is unwilling to go that low, move on and keep looking. If the seller want's to move it faster, he'll lower the proce accordingly. If not, well then, that's his decision.

Always use your thumb and put pressure on the battery tray as you tighten the screw. That way the screw (or more appropriately the threaded insert) is not being put under the pressure of pulling the battery tray in past the rubber o-ring.

On my Sportrak Pro, I set the Primary to WGS-84, DD MM.MMM, but I set the Secondary to NAD-27, UTM. That way, my secondary coordinates match paper topo maps (they are usually NAD-27).

You're actually not willing to let it go, at least not without a final dig. As a cache owner, he can delete the log for whatever reason he decides, and is under no obligation to inform you why. Obviously it would be polite to let you know why, but he is nonetheless under no obligation to do so. As others have pointed out, there could be a number of other, legitimate, reasons it was deleted, including the fact that the pictures could be considered "spoilers". Honestly, it probably does have to do with everything that has transpired between the two of you, but sometimes it is better to simply let it go. Since you're not willing to do that, I'm sure that we will soon be reading the next chapter of "what he had the nerve to do..." Let me get some popcorn.

If I get to ground zero and don't find it (for whatever reason), I log a DNF. If I didn't even make it to ground zero, I'll log either a note or a DNF if the reason had something to do with the cache (terrain, hours of park access, etc.). But I usually don't log at all if the reason I didn't get to ground zero had nothing to do with the cache. I mean, realistically, if I get into a car accident 15 miles before even reaching the parking coords, what does that have to do with the cache? Or if I set out with 10 caches in my GPS, but only get to 8 of them before calling it a day, why bother logging notes or DNFs on the final 2? I didn't search for them. Finds, DNFs, and Notes are all feedback/history on the cache, not on my own prowess or ineptitude to get through life! Of course, the problem is that the line between DNF/note/nothing is a gray area. Everyone of us could come up with a scenario, then the next person could slightly tweak that scenario, and the next..."but what about if..." But I also understand that everyone plays the game differently. There are those that will log DNFs for any cache they had planned to seek at the time they walked out their front door, but didn't get to. Others log nothing but finds (smilie junkies!). Do what feels right to you, and how you would like others to log your own caches.

Nope, no problem at all as long as you can move the TB along. Just make sure you log a note instead of a find, as you said you plan to. edit: Dang, you guys type fast!

Huh? I think the point being made, which I happen to agree with, is that if someone is placing MO caches for any reason other than because of a localized cache maggot/pirate problem, then isn't it fair to only seek/log those caches that are also placed by premium members (regular or MO)? Otherwise, it seems to be a bit hypocritical to log a find on one of my caches, yet at the same time say that I'm not worthy of seeking/logging one of theirs.

I originally had a Magellan GPS315 (back before SA, and before geocaching), then upgraded to a SporTrak Pro. My son uses an ETrex yellow that I got in a promotional deal for $25. I take all the ribbing about M vs G with a grain of salt (especially when the "boomerang effect" comes up; I've never gone 100 feet past a cache yet, as I don't think I can walk/run that fast!). For my money, I much prefer the ST and even my old 315 over the ETrex, but since I was already familiar with Magellan (the GPS315) when I bought the ST, that probably explains at least part of it. There are a certain percentage of people who will rib/badmouth the competition, regardless of their brand. And I think that percentage is probably constant also regardless of brand. But since there are more Garmins in use than Magellans (or so I've heard), that could explain why there are more people who badmouth Magellans than Garmins.

I see. That makes more sense, I guess. The way it was originally worded sounded like finders of the first 3 would have the clues/coordinates needed to find the 4th/MOC. In that case, it would be a slap in the face. But since they still need to have access to the MOC page to even know the 4th exists and to complete the info needed to find it (the "key", so to speak), then it's not quite so "blatant". As for remote mountaintop or island caches, there are other ways of accessing them than buying a ORV/ATV or Boat. Ironman hiking or swimming comes to mind. But I digress...Arguing about MOCs is kinda like trying to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig! And I'm still not sure if I'm the teacher or the pig!!!

We did one in Cayucos (near Morro Bay) a couple weeks ago that was on a rock outcropping in the ocean. If you were there at low tide, you could get to the rocks without getting wet, but during high tide...

SporTrak Pro. Love it! 'Nuff said.

Ummmm...I'm confused. If 3 will be regular caches with clues/coordinates to the 4th, why would the 4th be MO? You're going to give us lowly non-PMs the clues/coordinates to a cache, and when we find it we can't log it online? That seems like a bit of a slap in the face, no?

In addition to a lightweight hiking staff, the following is an article I wrote for "Today's Cacher" a couple months ago: Pack Heavy, Pack Light A couple of years ago, I discovered Geocaching, and after our first find, my 2 youngest kids (Sabrina, 9, and Anthony, 11) and I were “hooked”. But as our “find” count increased, so did the difficulty level of many of our cache excursions. While I thought nothing as a kid of spending the entire day hiking in the canyons near my home with nothing more than a BB gun and a pocket knife, as a parent my primary job is keeping my own kids safe, and I wanted to be prepared for any contingency that might occur on the trail. I also felt that it was a good lesson to my kids to leave nothing to chance. The question was, how could I carry supplies sufficient for a possible unplanned overnight stay in the wilderness, while maintaining a pack that’s light enough and convenient enough for even a short 1 hour hike? Fortunately, today’s backpacking technology makes it possible. The first item purchased was what is known as a “hydropack”. These are relatively small backpacks with an internal “bladder” for water, and are available in many sizes and configurations. Mine is only 8”w x 16”h x 6”d, and my son’s is 7”w x 14”h x 4”d. Each has multiple pockets, padded shoulder straps, a waist belt, and a 2-liter, freezable water bladder with a hose and “bite valve” allowing you to drink without stopping or removing a cap. An inexpensive “ball” style compass attached to one shoulder strap and a GPS carry case on the other strap completes each pack. Shop around for prices and styles; ours are good quality and yet cost less than $35 each. A first aid kit is a must for any long hike, and with careful planning, a small but full-featured kit can be assembled. While mine only measures about 3.5”x3.5”x5”, it includes an instant icepack, Ace bandage, various sized band-aids, butterfly closures, gauze, adhesive tape, antiseptic, bugbite swabs, iodine swabs, alcohol pads, cotton balls/swabs, CPR mask, eyewash, smelling salts, Tylenol, chapstick, muleskin, and a snakebite kit. My son carries a bit smaller, less extensive kit in his pack as well. If you do end up stranded and must spend the night, a few well thought out items can make a huge difference. A 99 cent rain poncho, a silver mylar survival blanket (which can be used as a makeshift tent, as well), a couple of cyalume light sticks, and disposable handwarmers make an overnight stay bearable, even in inclement weather. Add a decent compass, a signal mirror, a whistle, a small flashlight (LED types are lightweight and have extremely low battery consumption), firestarter sticks, waterproof matches, and some rope ( I carry 50’ of 1/4”nylon) and you’re set. I’ve also added a couple of straps to the bottom of our packs that allow us to easily carry a tightly rolled sweatshirt or jacket. You never know when the weather is going to take a sudden turn for the worse! Of course, don’t discount the value of simple creature comforts. I carry a small roll of toilet paper (roll it up and put it inside an empty cardboard toilet paper tube), a washrag, a hotel-sized bar of soap, bug repellent wipes, and sunscreen wipes, along with a good pocket knife, a leatherman-style multi-tool, a backpacker’s cable-style saw, nylon cord and strap hardware (for pack repair), some duct tape, and of course spare batteries. Geocaching-specific items include a small trash bag (CITO!!), a logbook and pencils, maps and cache notes, a credit-card style calculator, and of course SWAG. To finish it all off in a high-tech way, a pedometer, cell phone, camera and mini-tripod, and 2-way FRS radio. For munchies we usually carry some beef jerky, granola bars, and trail mix, along with a couple of extra bottles of water if it’s particularly hot out or we are planning on a longer hike. Overkill? Some would certainly say so. But I would rather have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. As a parent, it is my responsibility to be prepared for any contingency when taking my kids into the great outdoors, and I refuse to leave that to chance. I’ve known people who have spent an unplanned night in the wilderness in inclement weather without being prepared, and they were not a pretty sight when they came out the next day. And believe it or not, my pack weighs in at only about 10-12 pounds, including water, which makes it convenient as well as effective. So take it from me, with a little thought you can pack heavy while still packing light!

At the time I listed the two caches as MOCs, I had over 30 other non MOC caches hidden, so no one was penalized. Actually, in reality, you were penalizing people. The fact that you had 30 other caches out there is great. But those who "paid up" had 32 of your caches to seek. No, it's not a big deal, but it is reality. Where do you get your info, because I'd really like to see those numbers. I believe that most caches that are vandalized are probably done so by muggles, who by definition simply stumble across them. So hiding the coordinates from a large percentage of geocachers will have very little effect. Now obviously localized cache pirates do exist, but they generally get tired of their "fun" after a short time and go away, and they also prefer not to work too hard, so more difficult hikes/hides/caches would discourage them as well. Again, I do believe that cache maggots/pirates are the only legitimate reason for MOCs, and even then should only be temporary till the problem goes away. But that's me, and obviously there are different opinions on this. I've already said that since TPTB have decided to make MOCs available, I support your right to place them, for whatever reason you want. But I still think they are more divisive than anything else. Just my opinion.

There may be, just as there may be others like me, that dislike the whole idea of "exclusive" caches being listed on this site. When I see a MOC in my area, it does bug me that there is a cache there that I can't log, but that makes me even less inclined to become a PM, since it is in effect dividing cachers into 2 different groups, rather welcoming everyone, regardless as to how they decide to contribute. In any case, I hope there are no hard feelings. All cachers (PM and non-PM alike) have more in common than these forums sometimes make it appear.

Fair enough. I just think that basing whether or not a person is "deserving" enough to seek a cache based on nothing more than whether they choose to contribute in one certain way, while ignoring the other ways to contribute, is in fact punitive, whether it's meant to be or not. And I agree that the benefits available to Premium members are well worth the $3. But it's real easy to follow the link on the home page to see what benefits are there for Premium membership, so I think that most non-PMs know exactly what features they are missing out on, and have made the conscious decision that those added features are not something they want or need. My point was not to start a war about MOCs (that's been hashed out many times on these forums), but simply to offer my opinion re. your idea. While more MOCs may very well increase paying membership as you want, they may also alienate others from becoming PMs. Whether the net result is positive or negative is debatable. Unfortunately, it is a highly divisive subject, regardless of which side you are on. And BTW, don't worry about me. I'm would not be sitting at home mad that you made your caches MOC. I'd be out there caching, or placing caches for all cachers, or doing any one of the numerous other activities that take up much more of my time than caching does.

Cute...resorting to "stars" to call me names. In any case, I think you somewhat prove my point. The first of your MOC caches you refer to didn't accomplish what you wanted it to. A better way to limit the number of cache visitors would be to find a different place; i.e. a tougher find, tougher hike, tougher puzzle, etc. Otherwise, maybe it wasn't such a great spot for a cache in the first place? The second one you refer to also demonstrates my point. You say you wanted to "give back to paying members". Why only them? Because they are better than non-paying members? Based on what, their decision to send $3 to this site? That's a pretty flimsy basis for judging the quality or character of a person. For all you know, a particular non-PM cacher may very well be nearly a "Mother Theresa" in his area, volunteering and donating to a multitude of great causes, while a particular PM may very well be a serial rapist or a bank robber. Yet based on your yardstick, ??? Judging people you've never met based on nothing but $3 seems a bit short-sighted to me. Paying for PQs have nothing to do with your right to find them. Anyone who logs on to the site can seek caches. It just seems logical to me that if a you deem a cache worthy of seeking and logging, then you should extend that same invitation to it's hider to seek your own caches. I don't "illegally download" copyrighted music, nor do I break other laws. But again, you paint me with that broad brush because you look down on me and those of us who have decided, for whatever personal reason, not to pay to find your "special" caches. Yet you have no problem finding and logging caches placed by those same people you won't allow to seek yours. Hypocritical? I think so. That may be your opinion, but "fact"? If all of the non-PM cachers suddenly took their caches and went home, there wouldn't be much point in this website to even exist, so I'm of the opinion that we "give back" to the sport much more than you want to give us credit for. Look, don't get me wrong; you have every right to place MOCs, and it's your decision whether or not to do so, for whatever reason you decide. And believe it or not, I support your right to do that since TPTB have decided to make the option available. But I also believe that MOCs are unnecessarily divisive and should rarely be used, and for only extreme situations, not simply to "reward" certain people (and in effect "punish" other people) based on a perception of that person's character or integrity, or lack thereof. Especially if that perception is based on nothing more than $3. There are much more relevant qualities to judge someone by, IMO.

I have no doubt that I will be blasted by some for the following, but I guess I'm entitled to my opinion, as are others. So here's mine: As has already been stated, there are many, many ways to contribute to this sport/hobby/obsession/disease . Paying $3 a month is only one of them. The only somewhat legitimate reason for an MOC in my opinion is if there is a local maggot/pirate problem. All the other reasons so often stated for them are better addressed in other ways, without excluding a huge percentage of cachers that contribute greatly to the sport in numerous other ways. In my area, MOCs have started popping up recently, and there really has never been much of a cache maggot/pirate problem in this area (that I know of, anyway). Does this make me want to become a PM? No, in fact it does just the opposite. The extra features (PQs and the like) would be nice, but untill MOCs are banned, I probably will continue to put off joining up. I'll contribute in other, more tangible ways that doesn't judge people based on something that has nothing to do with the sport. I've asked the following question a number of times (when the issue of MOCs comes up), but have yet to get a single answer for some reason : I'd like to ask those of you who are placing MOCs for any reason other than cache maggots/pirates... Since you have deemed non-PM cachers not worthy of seeking your caches, are you also willing to put your money where your mouth is and not seek caches placed by non-PM cachers? What about the ones you've already found that were placed by us lowly non-PMs? Will you delete them from your "found" list? If not, then placing MOCs seems to be the ultimate in hypocrisy.

When we cache, we have a strict policy: Whoever actually finds/retrieves the cache is the one who must return it to it's hiding spot. They are the one who knows exactly how they found it.